Wey concentrate - PF

[MarcusG]

Whey concentrate - PF

nteresting article from Will Brinks on front page of bb.com .
He says that whey concentrate has more growth factors including
lactoferrin. Which is probably true since lots of the good stuff is in the fat which is removed by CFM and concentrate has more fat+lactose.

Protein factory's description of its concentrate is "Using the ion-exchange process the whey is concentrated to remove ....". Why is the filtering process ion-exchange? Kindof leery about 'ion-exchange'. Any advise here??

 

[Customizer]

Hey you mean Will Brink the guy who came up to me at the Arnold and told me he thought taking free form amino acids was worthless.

 

[quasar]

that article wasn't very informative for people who have already researched whey protein, casein, soy etc. just a bunch of basics saying what we already knew- a blend of WPI and WPC is best. what he doesn't mention tho are casein's benefits and soy isolate's benefits (no need for additional Q) when mixed with whey to create a more ideal AA profile and slow absorption, I've been making my own little isomatrix version for awhile, seems great combined with Max-OT (thanks blindfaith)

and I have to mention that that Brink guy could have majored in something worthy of mentioning if he got into Harvard, why not biology, chemistry, or physics instead of "natural sciences"? sounds like the easiest route to a CRA to me and now he's an "expert"? HA!

 

[MarcusG]

THanks for the replies. Basically what my question is whether WPC from PF is ok when the PF's WPC description reads 'ion-exchange' process which is really bad for the IGF protein subfractions, not whether WPC is bad in general since there are many ways to filter raw whey ->WPC.

Free form aminos as far as I know is useless since its not well absorbed compared to peptide bond aminos and unstable to heat, PH changes.

 

[Customizer]

free form aminos..useless?? Man that's funny stuff, we have mountains of research showing they have drug like effects as well as an enormous anecdotal base. How could they not be absorbed?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Could you post some of those studies? I'm curious to see some of them as I'm rethinking some things about pre-workout shakes.

 

[bigswole30]

If I could only use one supp, it would be free form amino acids. I take somwhere in the neighborhood of 40 aminos per day.

 

[John Benz]

Free form aminos as far as I know is useless since its not well absorbed compared to peptide bond aminos and unstable to heat, PH changes.

Nonsense! Free form aminos are absorbed much faster than any other protein, and are usually composed of casein hydrosylates, giving a better profile than whey protein. Nothing in a powder can approach the efficacy of heavy BCAA supplementation, both before and during the workout to insure the body remains in an anabolic state. Keeping the body anabolic all day long=consistent muscular gains.

Whey is Will Brink's "baby." He promoted whey and also flax oil, and help them attain their current state of popularity. Whey has it's advantages, but these are largely blown out of proportion by the supp companies. Milk protein isolate has the best amino profile of all the powders, followed by micellar casein, and whey protein isolate trails in 3rd place. I don't know how powdered egg protein stacks up, but a combination of milk/egg would certainly offer the best bv of all.

 

[Customizer]

the studies will be noted very soon when we release the product, we are very close at Xtreme to having the ultimate pre-workout drink available. I'm so stoked with this product because we have made some cheap homebrews of it here and the anecdotal results are absolutely staggering. The research we have demonstrates a 2 fold increase in anabolic effect using this product pre workout over using a post workout shake, but that 2 fold figure goes up even more when using the combo of this concept pre-workout and a proper post workout shake. Anyone who doubts FFAA 's simply have never used them properly.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well thats all good but I'll probably still use my own since most manufactured drinks will still use malto or dextrose as their source of carb. I want to see what the effect amino's have without a carb sources present because it seems they have more of an effect on protein synthesis than insulin.

 

[Customizer]

we could have easily made this product without carbs but the research shows that surrounding the workout the anabolic effect is far superior with ingestion of them. It's no issue, I mean ICE is already carb free bcaa/glutamine but as I mentioned this product will work much better as it is.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well it will work for better muscle glycogen storage but there is no research that show the total amount of glycogen stored equates to an increase in protein synthesis. It will help in energy requirements but that can also be achieved with a lower GI source. SO including carbs is fine but I'd still stick with my own since it incorportates a lower GI source rather than a high GI source which is not needed. I agree though including ICE will help.

 

[John Benz]

I will also never again use a high gi carb source either pre or post-workout. When people experience how much better low gi carbs work than the research would indicate, many will refuse to ever look back. You may want to consider 2 formulations, and offer a choice of a high or a low gi formula.

 

[pinoy]

You may want to consider 2 formulations, and offer a choice of a high or a low gi formula.

werd, that's a good suggestion

 

[Customizer]

Pre-workout is such a different ballgame than postworkot. The consumption of moderate to high GI carbs just before is advantagous for so many resons.

First, they allow you to keep your carb intake lower throughout the day as most do, and still make energy available for your activity. So it is not glycogen storage, but rather glucose availability.

Second, slowly ingested carbs can have a negative affect upon your training as they take more energy and fluids to digest. Many can cause an upset stomach if significant amounts are consumed during or immediately prior to activity. Calling upon your system to multi task during training is a poor strategy.

Third, pre-workout nutrient ingestion has a much greater impact upon recovery than does post workout. The "open window" so to speak during recovery shuttles more of the nutrients into the cells dramatically increasing the utilization rate in your exercised muscles.


Energy requisition is the first priority of cells after physical activity. This is needed to allow recovery. Keeping nutrients available during activity also jump starts the process. For example, the equivilant pre-workout obviously is advantagous during exercise, but will also outperform the post-workout shake after training, even if nothing else is consumed. The flux of nutrients into the cells is that intense during exercise.

Free form aminos is the choice method here. And not just a mixture, EAA only. Taking 1/2 the amount of EAA only has more than 200% greater response than a complete mixture of all aminos in free form. I have not seen it done directly, but if this was compared to a protein full of peptide bonds, I would imagine the differenct to be even greater. The stimulus affect of the EAA is so great due to many reasons. They are absorbed the fastest of all amino acids thus allowing us to dramatically increase the level of hyperaminoacidemia, taking full avantage of the bodies dramatic increase in protein anabolism in response to their consumption. This level is not occured with the aminos trapped in peptide bonds. Most products that include protein in their blend, use WPC and MPI, very poor. These would be my absolute last choice for a pre-workout drink.

 

[MarcusG]

OK, I'm not an expert but all I've know so far is that peptide bond aminos are superior. See the following links:
http://www.futuredynamicadvantage.com/research/peptide_facts.html
http://www.wheyprotein.com/sec5.html

Admittedly they are not research extracts but marketting info.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Pre-workout is such a different ballgame than postworkot. The consumption of moderate to high GI carbs just before is advantagous for so many resons.

First, they allow you to keep your carb intake lower throughout the day as most do, and still make energy available for your activity. So it is not glycogen storage, but rather glucose availability.

Second, slowly ingested carbs can have a negative affect upon your training as they take more energy and fluids to digest. Many can cause an upset stomach if significant amounts are consumed during or immediately prior to activity. Calling upon your system to multi task during training is a poor strategy.

Third, pre-workout nutrient ingestion has a much greater impact upon recovery than does post workout. The "open window" so to speak during recovery shuttles more of the nutrients into the cells dramatically increasing the utilization rate in your exercised muscles.


Energy requisition is the first priority of cells after physical activity. This is needed to allow recovery. Keeping nutrients available during activity also jump starts the process. For example, the equivilant pre-workout obviously is advantagous during exercise, but will also outperform the post-workout shake after training, even if nothing else is consumed. The flux of nutrients into the cells is that intense during exercise.

1. THis can be achieved with a lower GI source. THe studies conform it, especially with total glycogen stored. High GI does not have a special properties that achieve this alone.

2. Once again this goes against published studies as it shows low GI to have a better impact on energy reuqirements, espcially total amount of glycogen stored. Granted I don't consume oatmeal 10 minutes before a workout. Post workout it has been fine and I've never heard of anyone with digestive problems. Anything in large quantities can cause an upset stomach.

3. I'm not questionion that but it seems amino's have a much more important role than insulin does, especially post workout where glycogen storage is biphasic.

So once again I see no reason to add a high GI carb source to the mix especially when quick replenishment before a workout is not warranted.

 

[zeppelin]

BOBO, what low gi carb do you recommend to consume immediately before and during your training?

Also, what do you have against high gi carbs before and during training. They hypoglycemic response is severely overrated. And if you find yourself sensitive, drink more during.

Also, this is why our mix will have a little fructose-glucose polymers (sucrose) in it. It will slow absorption mildly, and allow for a little bit of sustained affect. The differences in carbs are not that great though, I must admit. As long as it is not high levels of fructose or such, which cause a variety of problems, it might be just fine.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I usually have oamteal 30-60 minutes before workout grinded up in a coffee grinder. Also from personal experience its worked mnuch better than any high glycemic carb without the chance of spillage. I never said it doesn't work or wouldn't work, but for me low GI has worked much better. I'm not the only one. I see no reason for a high glycemic drink before a workout.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

BTW- GLad you came and posted here. I guess I have to thank Customizer for alerting you to this post. Post more often because you input is valued here.

 

[Customizer]

I should point out Im not in opposition to producing a complete carb free version of this product if the demand is high enough, personally I agree with you when you say different things work for different people, I find high GI preworkout has done wonders for me lately, but as I said if the demand is there it is no issue for us to produce one of only FFAA

 

[Dwight Schrute]

That sounds great. I admit it would be a tough sell since the majority of companies push High GI as the way to go. For energy requirements or endurace type events thats fine, but for bodybuilders it doesn't seem necessary IMO. With most of the new studies showing no difference between straight aminos vs insulin + aminos, it seems that carbs are less important than once thought. Amino's seem to be the key in resythesis which is why ICE's value IMO is rising.


Now that I think about it, something like V-12 combined with ICE and some sort of insulin potentiator (glycocyamine, GPA?) would be the ultimate pre-workout drink. R-la would be nice too but then it would definetly need a carb source present.

 

[zeppelin]

The carbs are for a fuel source. Not enough glycogen, training suffers, no matter what the training. This just gives you another option.

What about those that get up early and train? No time to eat some oats then wait an hour. Or what if you train 2x per day? Recovery becomes very important. What if you have trouble getting enough calories throughout the day? Here is a good way to make sure you have enough glucose to keep training high. What if it a combination of all of these? This product will be very successfull and popular, no doubt about that. It is also full of electrolytes and lactic acid buffers. May not seem really important to some bber's. I disagree, but to each his own. It will be a very beneficial training tool to other training modes as well. Those individuals who train 2x per day will find it invaluable. Not uncommon for this to occur. I work with many of those athletes. Sometimes 3x per day. Condition, practice, weights. This puts a tramendous amount of strain on the system. It also makes it super difficult to get in enough calories and time for recovery is very low. Sometimes their is only 2 hours between sessions, or even back to back. Essentially it is making the session 3-4 hours long. You deffinitely need some fuel.

Taking a slow approach to recovey is not beneficial in these instances. With this approach, the athletes are getting calories in to help them train, which they probably did not get earlier, and it is maximising recovery.

Now I personally train 2x per day, 4-5 days per week. This attack method has become invaluable, especially since one is early in the A.M.. Condition and such in the AM and weights at night. So basically I train every 10-14 hours. This has worked very well, even with low calories.

You do need insulin in at least moderate amounts to fully maximise protein synthesis. Super high amounts, no, but at least some. Their are other ways to increase insulin release besides carbs, I see your point. The direct madness to this method is to maximise performance while jumpstarting recovery. A super EAA is on the board, but don't know if it will be as popular as this product.

My approach is this. Carbs + EAA immediately pre and during workout. 1/2-1 serving Relentless immdiately following, depending on workout duration and intensity. Then a meal 1-1/2 hours later.

 

[John Benz]

The combination of low g.i. carbs and any high grade protein will give a good enough insulin spike pre-workout and with the addition of oats instead of Malto/Dex your glucose levels will remaine more stable. The insulin spike is not as huge or immediate as with dextrose, but more than enough to get the job done.

The insulin spike after the dextrose/malto. ingestion is quite significant - blood sugar is high, tons of insulin are released, which, in turn leads to a crash in circulating glucose; the body is hence back in a catabolic state, unless you eat again very soon. I want the pre-workout meal to stretch from the time I leave the house until I get into my car and have my Post-workout shake 2 hours later.

By using carbs such as oatmeal, blood sugar increases at a steadier rate, and insulin levels stay somewhat stable. This then leads to a continuous anabolic period from pre-workout through post-workout, and this constant and level positive nitrogen balance is the key to steady growth. I do feel that the addition of BCAA's is of great importance if taken before and throughout the workout. I have experienced the difference in post-workout soreness myself.

But in the big picture, how important is this? I see little difference in results using scientific diet methods and the results I got several years ago, just going out and eating a huge steak dinner about an hour after I left the gym. I can well remember how fast I grew at 18, and I had no knowledge of state-of-the-art diet, 6 meals a day, post-workout nutrition, or anything else. I worked out till I puked, and cut all junk out of my diet, ate whole baked chickens and 2 lbs of ground beef at a sitting, with stalks of raw celery, broccoli, carrots and bags of mixed nuts between meals at work. Went to the local hatcheries and bought 20 dozen eggs at 25 cents per dozen, and ate 12-14 at a crack.

Few modern boldybuilders can match the incredible physique of Sergio Oliva, who knew nothing about post-workout nutrition, or the strength of Bill Pearl, who could bend horseshoes and rip licence plates in half. Gosh, how did they ever get 21" arms with no knowledge of scientific nutrition, and minimal steroid use.

One thing I am sure of, back when I was less knowledgeable, and just ate grains, greens and meat, with one milk and egg protein shake each day, and sometimes a 15 egg omelet smothered with cheddar, I gained weight at an incredible rate, and never had to worry about that spare tire. Waist back then stayed at 31", regardless. Takes lots of work and discipline to get there now. I suspect that all the post workout sugar is in part responsible.

After years of training, I have come to the conclusion along with Bobo, RippedUp, jweave23, J-Rod and others that the slight benefit from the insulin spike created by Malto/Dex post workout is not worth the tradeoff in fat accumulation. Bobo convinced me (pounded it through my thick skull) to give up malto and try oats instead. Guess what? It works!!!

 

[zeppelin]

John, the research shows that by drinking this just before your workout it outperforms the postworkout shake after the workout. It does last throughout because almost all of the nutrients make it into the working muscles. Take advantage of the metabolic upregulation.

Your method is good. Eating that far out before training is good. If your are trying to gain or tain super hard, this will be awesome in conjunction.

Who said we were using malto and dextrose? Dextrose-monohydrate and sucrose. By drinking this throughout your workout you hardly touch your glycogen stores. So in other words, you are even more anabolic than with your method, especially with this EAA blend. The carbs and aminos are transported into the working muscles at a phenomenal rate.

Don't worry about the insulin. By drinking it throughout your workout, and the small addition of fructose, this becomes a mute issue. The crash is over exaggerated by the way, expecially if you use this method.

When this comes out, give it a try. The science is their for at least that. But to each his own.

 

[megadeth]

So when is it coming out?  I am sure many have been looking forward to this product for a while!

 

[Dwight Schrute]

John, the research shows that by drinking this just before your workout it outperforms the postworkout shake after the workout. It does last throughout because almost all of the nutrients make it into the working muscles. Take advantage of the metabolic upregulation.

.

But it also does this with a lower GI source. Actually the research published shows no difference in the rate of synthesis between a high or low carb source. It continues to show that aminos themselves are of greater importance than the insulin spike along with aminos. We are not argueing that your pre-workout shake won't work. On the contrary were saying it will but that a large insulin spike is not necessary. If you conducted these studies yourself I would like to see if there was any difference at the rate of synthesis with and without a carb source present. The amount of glycogen stored, unless extremely low, does not equate into a greater rate. The amount of glycogen lost during resistance training is overated anyways. We all know the studies show that high GI increases the amount of glycogen stored but this in no way has it shown that the rate sythesis is increased. So unless you need energy requirements extremely fast, like in some situations you mention, the high GI carb source is not needed.

 

[bachovas]

The only problem I see, is to find a low-GI carb, with minimal fiber (no fructose) and that could be drink during workout.

 

[janne]

So when is it coming out?  I am sure many have been looking forward to this product for a while!

bump

 

[Customizer]

Im finalizing a taste test sample today, if it gets our approval we will need about 3-4 weeks to being to retail

 

[megadeth]

Was it approved???

 

[Customizer]

flavor approved, development done. Tried it 2 times before working out now and would say very impressed is the understatement of the year for me. Labels will need my approval now (done next week) meanwhile full production done I expect 3-4 weeks from now.

 

[jweave23]

Originally posted by John Benz
The combination of low g.i. carbs and any high grade protein will give a good enough insulin spike pre-workout and with the addition of oats instead of Malto/Dex your glucose levels will remaine more stable. The insulin spike is not as huge or immediate as with dextrose, but more than enough to get the job done.

The insulin spike after the dextrose/malto. ingestion is quite significant - blood sugar is high, tons of insulin are released, which, in turn leads to a crash in circulating glucose; the body is hence back in a catabolic state, unless you eat again very soon. I want the pre-workout meal to stretch from the time I leave the house until I get into my car and have my Post-workout shake 2 hours later.

By using carbs such as oatmeal, blood sugar increases at a steadier rate, and insulin levels stay somewhat stable. This then leads to a continuous anabolic period from pre-workout through post-workout, and this constant and level positive nitrogen balance is the key to steady growth. I do feel that the addition of BCAA's is of great importance if taken before and throughout the workout. I have experienced the difference in post-workout soreness myself.

But in the big picture, how important is this? I see little difference in results using scientific diet methods and the results I got several years ago, just going out and eating a huge steak dinner about an hour after I left the gym. I can well remember how fast I grew at 18, and I had no knowledge of state-of-the-art diet, 6 meals a day, post-workout nutrition, or anything else. I worked out till I puked, and cut all junk out of my diet, ate whole baked chickens and 2 lbs of ground beef at a sitting, with stalks of raw celery, broccoli, carrots and bags of mixed nuts between meals at work. Went to the local hatcheries and bought 20 dozen eggs at 25 cents per dozen, and ate 12-14 at a crack.

Few modern boldybuilders can match the incredible physique of Sergio Oliva, who knew nothing about post-workout nutrition, or the strength of Bill Pearl, who could bend horseshoes and rip licence plates in half. Gosh, how did they ever get 21" arms with no knowledge of scientific nutrition, and minimal steroid use.

One thing I am sure of, back when I was less knowledgeable, and just ate grains, greens and meat, with one milk and egg protein shake each day, and sometimes a 15 egg omelet smothered with cheddar, I gained weight at an incredible rate, and never had to worry about that spare tire. Waist back then stayed at 31", regardless. Takes lots of work and discipline to get there now. I suspect that all the post workout sugar is in part responsible.

After years of training, I have come to the conclusion along with Bobo, RippedUp, jweave23, J-Rod and others that the slight benefit from the insulin spike created by Malto/Dex post workout is not worth the tradeoff in fat accumulation. Bobo convinced me (pounded it through my thick skull) to give up malto and try oats instead. Guess what? It works!!!

I just quoted this whole thing because I agree with all that was said here. Overanalyzation of pre, during, or post workout shakes IMO isn't exactly worth  an incedible amount of time unless you're in the business of BB'ing. Meaning that, in the BIG picture, what are we after? Maximized lean gains with minimal fat, right?! Ok, with that in mind we are nobly attempting to use our tools the most efficient way possible, yes, but does the constant rehashing and analyzation we give to pre and post workout translate into what we would consider to be "noticeable" results? I think not, for the most part.

The argument is usually something along the lines of "why not squeeze every bit of utility from these shakes that we can?" I see this point, but for people who have lifted for years, I ask you this: What have you noticed regarding your PW shakes? When I first started lifting I just ate right after workout, then later on added a whey shake, then later on tried high GI very briefly, now I'm back to a whey shake and food about 30 minutes later. I can't say that I have experienced such a dramatic increase or decrease in gains one way or the other that it seems to warrant constant probing of every single chemical reaction from 60 minutes proir to workout to about 90 minutes post workout. Then again, this is my opinion, if one is a competing BB'er, I can abviously see why a litle more in-depth analysis may be beneficial. I do agree that we should of course study what will give us greater results, but just step back for a minute and think if your PW shake is really that great of a % of your gains. I think overall diet and workout consistency usually seem to give everyone probably 70-80% of their gains, with cycles and supps helping to provide the rest. That is my own opinion, dare I say it anymore without a PubMed study to back it

That being said, low GI oatmeal is still the way to go! I say down with malto!!

 

[Customizer]

well if the difference was insignificant i could agree with you however research is demonstrating (and we have TONS of studies on this) that by using this alone an approximately 250% increase in effectiveness over a post workout shake alone, and if you combine the ingredients in this product in conjunction with a PW shake a 4-5 fold increase. That's certainly nothing to gloss over. The problem is we've all been using whats available to us and getting mediocre results at most, using simple carbs and whey pre workout doesnt cut it, free form aminos are a world class apart anyone who has used them extensively can certainly testify to this.

 

[John Benz]

Customizer, you're a good bro, and I'm not picking on you here; but the point is this, if you are eating correctly and staying anabolic all throughout the day; the difference in real world results between a fancy post-workout shake and just going home and eating a nice meal seems negligible to most people. At least those who have taken the time to compare and notice. So, if the gains are .5%, 250% of that still adds up to very little.

A few years back, some supp companies did studies, hyped up the results and voila, whey protein is king and you can't build muscle without a post-workout shake. I intend to keep taking a pre-workout meal, (solid—no shake), as I feel it is the most important meal of the day. It provides both energy to keep your stamina at peak, and a steady flow of aminos to prevent a severe state of catabolism from occuring. I just don't agree that the nearly instantaneous absorption provided by free form aminos is needed to get the job done. I do see a difference in recovery when I take BCAA's throughout my workout, but I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant the extremely high cost—unless you are on AAS or PH. That's another story.

 

[pinoy]

i agree with johnz benz that the pre-workout meal is the most important meal of the day...i love it because i usually have protein pancakes (oats, cottage cheese, egg whites)