Wey concentrate - PF
- 05-09-2003, 01:54 PM
- 05-09-2003, 03:11 PM
flavor approved, development done. Tried it 2 times before working out now and would say very impressed is the understatement of the year for me. Labels will need my approval now (done next week) meanwhile full production done I expect 3-4 weeks from now.
05-09-2003, 03:41 PM
I just quoted this whole thing because I agree with all that was said here. Overanalyzation of pre, during, or post workout shakes IMO isn't exactly worth an incedible amount of time unless you're in the business of BB'ing. Meaning that, in the BIG picture, what are we after? Maximized lean gains with minimal fat, right?! Ok, with that in mind we are nobly attempting to use our tools the most efficient way possible, yes, but does the constant rehashing and analyzation we give to pre and post workout translate into what we would consider to be "noticeable" results? I think not, for the most part.Originally posted by John Benz
The combination of low g.i. carbs and any high grade protein will give a good enough insulin spike pre-workout and with the addition of oats instead of Malto/Dex your glucose levels will remaine more stable. The insulin spike is not as huge or immediate as with , but more than enough to get the job done.
The insulin spike after the dextrose/malto. ingestion is quite significant - blood sugar is high, tons of insulin are released, which, in turn leads to a crash in circulating glucose; the body is hence back in a catabolic state, unless you eat again very soon. I want the pre-workout meal to stretch from the time I leave the house until I get into my car and have my Post-workout shake 2 hours later.
By using carbs such as oatmeal, blood sugar increases at a steadier rate, and insulin levels stay somewhat stable. This then leads to a continuous anabolic period from pre-workout through post-workout, and this constant and level positive nitrogen balance is the key to steady growth. I do feel that the addition of BCAA's is of great importance if taken before and throughout the workout. I have experienced the difference in post-workout soreness myself.
But in the big picture, how important is this? I see little difference in results using scientific diet methods and the results I got several years ago, just going out and eating a huge steak dinner about an hour after I left the gym. I can well remember how fast I grew at 18, and I had no knowledge of state-of-the-art diet, 6 meals a day, post-workout nutrition, or anything else. I worked out till I puked, and cut all junk out of my diet, ate whole baked chickens and 2 lbs of ground beef at a sitting, with stalks of raw celery, broccoli, carrots and bags of mixed nuts between meals at work. Went to the local hatcheries and bought 20 dozen eggs at 25 cents per dozen, and ate 12-14 at a crack.
Few modern boldybuilders can match the incredible physique of Sergio Oliva, who knew nothing about post-workout nutrition, or the strength of Bill Pearl, who could bend horseshoes and rip licence plates in half. Gosh, how did they ever get 21" arms with no knowledge of scientific nutrition, and minimal steroid use.
One thing I am sure of, back when I was less knowledgeable, and just ate grains, greens and meat, with one milk and egg protein shake each day, and sometimes a 15 egg omelet smothered with cheddar, I gained weight at an incredible rate, and never had to worry about that spare tire. Waist back then stayed at 31", regardless. Takes lots of work and discipline to get there now. I suspect that all the post workout sugar is in part responsible.
After years of training, I have come to the conclusion along with Bobo, RippedUp, jweave23, J-Rod and others that the slight benefit from the insulin spike created by Malto/Dex post workout is not worth the tradeoff in fat accumulation. Bobo convinced me (pounded it through my thick skull) to give up malto and try oats instead. Guess what? It works!!!
The argument is usually something along the lines of "why not squeeze every bit of utility from these shakes that we can?" I see this point, but for people who have lifted for years, I ask you this: What have you noticed regarding your PW shakes? When I first started lifting I just ate right after workout, then later on added a whey shake, then later on tried high GI very briefly, now I'm back to a whey shake and food about 30 minutes later. I can't say that I have experienced such a dramatic increase or decrease in gains one way or the other that it seems to warrant constant probing of every single chemical reaction from 60 minutes proir to workout to about 90 minutes post workout. Then again, this is my opinion, if one is a competing BB'er, I can abviously see why a litle more in-depth analysis may be beneficial. I do agree that we should of course study what will give us greater results, but just step back for a minute and think if your PW shake is really that great of a % of your gains. I think overall diet and workout consistency usually seem to give everyone probably 70-80% of their gains, with cycles and supps helping to provide the rest. That is my own opinion, dare I say it anymore without a PubMed study to back it
That being said, low GI oatmeal is still the way to go! I say down with malto!!
05-09-2003, 04:49 PM
well if the difference was insignificant i could agree with you however research is demonstrating (and we have TONS of studies on this) that by using this alone an approximately 250% increase in effectiveness over a post workout shake alone, and if you combine the ingredients in this product in conjunction with a PW shake a 4-5 fold increase. That's certainly nothing to gloss over. The problem is we've all been using whats available to us and getting mediocre results at most, using simple carbs and whey pre workout doesnt cut it, free form aminos are a world class apart anyone who has used them extensively can certainly testify to this.
05-09-2003, 10:28 PM
Customizer, you're a good bro, and I'm not picking on you here; but the point is this, if you are eating correctly and staying anabolic all throughout the day; the difference in real world results between a fancy post-workout shake and just going home and eating a nice meal seems negligible to most people. At least those who have taken the time to compare and notice. So, if the gains are .5%, 250% of that still adds up to very little.
A few years back, some supp companies did studies, hyped up the results and voila, whey protein is king and you can't build muscle without a post-workout shake. I intend to keep taking a pre-workout meal, (solid—no shake), as I feel it is the most important meal of the day. It provides both energy to keep your stamina at peak, and a steady flow of aminos to prevent a severe state of catabolism from occuring. I just don't agree that the nearly instantaneous absorption provided by free form aminos is needed to get the job done. I do see a difference in recovery when I take BCAA's throughout my workout, but I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant the extremely high cost—unless you are on AAS or PH. That's another story.
05-09-2003, 10:54 PM
i agree with johnz benz that the pre-workout meal is the most important meal of the day...i love it because i usually have protein pancakes (oats, cottage cheese, egg whites)
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