Kidney trouble on CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester)
- 05-26-2006, 11:45 AM
Kidney trouble on CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester)
Over the past year I have used CEE off and on. When using it, I use 3 grams prior to workout and then sip on 2 more grams during my workout...I dont take it on non-workout days, however, I train 5-6 days per week.
About a year ago I went in to have some blood work done because my kidney was bothering me.
My blood test showed my Creatinine (not creatine) levels to be very high. They were 2.4 mg/dl while the normal range for a male is 0.8-1.2 mg/dl. My doctor freaked and refered me to a specialist immediatly. They performed a sonogram and found my left kidney to be almost twice as large as my right!
I didn't think CEE would have anything to do with it but the doctor told me to go off everything (I was only taking CEE)and come back next week for another test. I did...six days later I did another blood test and sonogram. The results showed my Creatinine level at a normal .9 and the sonogram showed my kidney back to it's normal size.
I still wasn't sure it was the CEE. I thought I may have been to dehydrated or something.
I started CEE again about 3 months ago. No pain in my kidney but I had a blood test 10 days after starting just to be sure. Again, the same thing happend! My Creatinine level was very high at 2.1 and my doctor freaked. I have since quite CEE.
Has anyone else had this problem using CEE? For the record, the brand I was using was VPX's version, but I doubt it makes a difference.
I have used creatine many times over the years with no trouble. I seems to be specific to CEE. I did begin to use "Pump Juice" about a month ago. This doen't seem to bother my kidney. It uses a different form of creatine...it's not CEE. I plan on having blood tests soon though just to be sure.
- 05-26-2006, 11:58 AM
whos CEE was it? brand name or bulk?
will definitely be watching this,
- 05-26-2006, 12:03 PM
Found this regarding MuscleTechs CEE-Pro:
Not intended for use by persons under 18. Do not use if pregnant or nursing. Consult a medical doctor before use if you have been treated for or diagnosed with, or have a family history of any medical condition, including (but not limited to) kidney or liver dysfunction. As with all creatine products, maintain an adequate state of hydration during use. If you experience a skin rash or any other allergic reaction, discontinue use and concult a physician. Refrain from use if you have been prescribed and are taking Disulfiram or if you are hyper sensitive to any of the components in creatine or ethyl alcohol. Use only as directed. Keep out of reach of children.
Any possible kidney issues in the family?
05-26-2006, 12:14 PM
its prob. just something that goes along with supplementing with CEE
05-26-2006, 02:06 PM
I thought CEE was less stressful on the kidney than monohydrate. Interesting that other forms of creatine didn't bother his kidneys.
05-26-2006, 09:35 PM
It was VPX's Version of CEE...Originally Posted by shct
That was an interesting disclaimer by muscle tech Shct.
bludevil, I thought the same thing...very strange.
Has anyone else experinced unusual pain in their kidneys while using CEE?
05-26-2006, 09:53 PM
I haven't experienced this problem. Sorry that you are.Originally Posted by workin2005
05-26-2006, 09:59 PM
have u tried kre-alkalyn creatine?Originally Posted by workin2005
05-26-2006, 10:14 PM
I believe that is the type of creatine in Pump Juice by Prometabolics....I've tried Pump Juice with no trouble. I am on it now in fact. I plan to have my blood work done again next week just to be sure though.Originally Posted by joe dax
05-26-2006, 10:19 PM
My brother claims that high doses of CEE gave him a kidney infection...take that for what its worth.
E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
05-27-2006, 01:54 AM
My creatinine was 1.9 on CEE and I quit it for a couple months. I just started back on it and will try to moniter my levels.
05-27-2006, 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by bludevil
I would say probably not. Due to the ethyl ester with it, it can penetrate the cell membranes easier and thats kind of scary if you think about it. It can penetrate probably any cell so it probably really gets absorbed by the kidneys twofold than regular creatine. I believe CEE still can convert to creatinine.
And 400 runner, lets hope its not something that just goes along with CEE. If so, who would want to take it if its gonna make your kidney larger and have problems??
I took CEE for awhile but never got any type of blood work done. Prior to surgery I was taking kre-alklayn, still no blood work though. I havent had any type of kidney pain.
Well, workin, be careful and I hope all is well with your kidneys. And yes, Im very interested in seeing the blood work while you are taking kre-alkalyn. Its not supposed to convert creatinine so it will be interesting for sure. Keep us posted.
05-27-2006, 08:02 AM
what was your water intake at while taking the CEE?
05-27-2006, 08:32 AM
Ann Pharmacother. 2005 Jun;39(6):1093-6. Epub 2005 May 10. Related Articles, Links
The effect of creatine intake on renal function.
Pline KA, Smith CL.
College of Pharmacy, Ferris State University, Big Rapids, MI, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To examine the effect of creatine supplementation on renal function and estimates of creatinine clearance. DATA SOURCES: A MEDLINE search was conducted (1966-September 2004) using the key terms creatine, creatinine, kidney function tests, drug toxicity, and exercise. Relevant articles were cross-referenced to screen for additional information. DATA SYNTHESIS: Supplementation with creatine, an unregulated dietary substance, is increasingly common in young athletes. To date, few studies have evaluated the impact of creatine on renal function and estimates of creatinine clearance. Because creatine is converted to creatinine in the body, supplementation with large doses of creatine may falsely elevate creatinine concentrations. Five studies have reported measures of renal function after acute creatine ingestion and 4 after chronic ingestion. All of these studies were completed in young healthy populations. Following acute ingestion (4-5 days) of large amounts of creatine, creatinine concentrations increased slightly, but not to a clinically significant concentration. Creatinine is also only minimally affected by longer creatine supplementation (up to 5.6 y). CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation minimally impacts creatinine concentrations and renal function in young healthy adults. Although creatinine concentrations may increase after long periods of creatine supplementation, the increase is extremely limited and unlikely to affect estimates of creatinine clearance and subsequent dosage adjustments. Further studies are required in the elderly and patients with renal insufficiency.
05-27-2006, 08:34 AM
Curr Sports Med Rep. 2002 Apr;1(2):103-6.
Effects of creatine use on the athlete's kidney.
Farquhar WB, Zambraski EJ.
HRCA Research and Training Institute, Harvard Division on Aging, 1200 Centre Street, Boston, MA 02131, USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
With regard to athletes attempting to improve their performance, at the present time creatine monohydrate is clearly the most widely used dietary supplement or ergogenic aid. Loading doses as high as 20 g/d are typical among athletes. The majority (> 90%) of the creatine ingested is removed from the plasma by the kidney and excreted in the urine. Despite relatively few isolated reports of renal dysfunction in persons taking creatine, the studies completed to date suggest that in normal healthy individuals the kidneys are able to excrete creatine, and its end product creatinine, in a manner that does not adversely alter renal function. This situation would be predicted to be different in persons with impaired glomerular filtration or inherent renal disease. The question of whether long-term creatine supplementation (ie, months to years) has any deleterious affects on renal structure or function can not be answered at this time. The limited number of studies that have addressed the issue of the chronic use of creatine have not seen remarkable changes in renal function. However, physicians should be aware that the safety of long-term creatine supplementation, in regard to the effects on the kidneys, cannot be guaranteed. More information is needed on possible changes in blood pressure, protein/albumin excretion, and glomerular filtration in athletes who are habitual users of this compound.
05-27-2006, 08:36 AM
The medical literature seems to indictae a high degree of safety. HOWEVER, I couldn't find any studies on CEE. Given CEE's supposed greater ability to be absorbed and longer half-life, it would be reasonable to speculate that (at least for some individuals) it overwhelms the ability of the kidneys to clear it in ways that monohydrate does not.
05-27-2006, 10:46 AM
Yes someone else has experinece this ME!!! I used cee made by high power 1st time using it.I used the regular kind off and on for 8 years with great results why the switch joining the bandwagon i guess!
Well let's get start with the DAY! I done a rountine exam at the beginning of the year so i can start back working out. well about a week before I when to see the Dr. I started taking the cee 5g before and after workout silly me I know.Well by the 4th day I was feeling tried often.So I readed the directions on the cee again because that was the only thing I was taking it said 2.5 g 30min prior and same after amount after workout I was like oh **** I been taking to much(double dosage) so I scaled back to the normal dose.Anyway after seeing the Doc result was in 2.4 creatinine!
I got a call the same day well a message saying call the Dr. asap!I call and spoke to the Doc saying I cant start my high protein and carb diet.I was like why?She begin asking me questions and making references to steriods and things of that nature.Nope no beef enhancers for me and do u take supplements ? yes and are taking any now?yes what are they ? creatine! Well I she educated me on that aswell.Come and see me again in a week stop taking all supplements and stay hydrated.
2nd test was in 1.4 down 1 whole pt. Whew Still not normal so she send me to sport nutrition Dr. and He HAD ME TAKE 2 SONOGRAM both came back that everything is ok.Thank Heavens everything is ok are THEY ?
This all started in Jan. and almost the end of May i been taking urine and bloodtest all this time and I found i have high blood pressure,high cholesterol and high bicarbon whateva that is? he gave pills for the blood pressure. We are working with a kidney specialist to found out if and what the problem is.My creatinine levels have vary between 1.4 and 1.7 and i had several of them.I even stop workingout a week before to see if that change anything it didnt.
My last test was done last week he cut my protein down to 100 grams and water intake down to gallon for 14 days so i should know something next week.
05-27-2006, 11:17 AM
I drink over 2 gallons of water a day and use cee, 6 grams a day, no problem. its a well know fact that if you take CEE and do not drink enough water, it will effect your kidneys.
I am using XCeed by DS, I also use Bulk cee on off days.
seeing how you are bigger than me Id expect you to drink even more water then the 2 gallons I drink.
05-27-2006, 12:59 PM
How are you not pissing all day? I drink about a gallon a day and spend 10-15 trips in the bathroom to pee. I mean it would really hinder my life to drink more then I already do. Do you have like a superbladder?Originally Posted by FitnFirm
05-27-2006, 11:20 PM
I had 1.9 while on Kre-Alk also was having lower back pain, stopped taking it for just two days and it went down to 1.3, I know it's not suppose to turn into Creatinine, but that is the results I had, the test was done 1st time after 4 days of hard training, and overload of protein, I did a Creatinine clearance and it all was good.Originally Posted by workin2005
05-28-2006, 02:13 PM
I second this: I drink 2-3 gallons of water myself and take 6 grams of CEE (SNS Creatine E2) everyday and have no problems whatsoever.Originally Posted by FitnFirm
05-28-2006, 04:00 PM
let us know how u get on with the new blood work results, i have had slight kidney pain on and off since using cee, didn't have it when i was on kre,so i'm very interested in whats going onOriginally Posted by workin2005
05-28-2006, 07:26 PM
Well, i just use micronized creatine now, from Bio-X or AST. Because when i used GNC's i peed flourescent green. Now that cant be good for your kidneys. VPX CEE i have used and i dont think it is a good product, if there are inpure substances in there it can wreak havoc on your poor kidneys. Things like protein and creatine that you take regularly should be from companies that you trust to have 100% pure ingredients...
also if you have any genetic defect in your kidneys creatine will only amplify it
05-28-2006, 08:27 PM
I will let you all know when I get my blood tests back after being on Pump Juice.
I was not taking in enough water the first time I had my blood tested (a year ago) but I was the second time and it still came back very elevated.
I am drinking even more water now (at least 2 gallons a day) so we will see....
05-30-2006, 09:31 AM
In my experience, kre-alkalyn forms of creatine are the only ones not to be metabolized by the body into creatinine. Otherwise, every other form of creatine is probably going to raise your creatinine to anywhere from 2.0 - 3.0. However, the kidney pain is not normal, and I would have that evaluated further. Do you happen to know your glomerular filtration rate??
05-30-2006, 09:36 AM
I dont know my glomerular filtration rate...how would I check this? Blood test?Originally Posted by morpheus1914
05-30-2006, 09:43 AM
Yes. It's a caculation determined from simple serum chemistries. I would also check your BUN/Creatinine Ratio. The docs probably already figure this, but just to paint a bigger picture. Have you had a urinalysis done to check for protein or casts in your urine?
05-30-2006, 06:45 PM
No, I have'nt.
Got another blood test done today. Should have the results by friday. I will be interested to see if Pump Juice spikes my kidney function like CEE. I'll let you all know the results when I get them.
05-30-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by doggzj
HaHa, WEll I do make alot of trips to potty, that is for sure, but I always make sure im near a bathroom were ever I go. I used to never drink water, so this is amazing for me that I can learn to appreciate it
05-31-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by andhen2003
That would be my decision as well.
05-31-2006, 06:25 PM
It was swollen...the way kidneys send to get when you start feeling that pain most think is lower back pain. Most people just dont get a sonogram done to see how much it swelled up. That said....you make a good point.Originally Posted by andhen2003
I won't be using CEE anymore, but the jury is still out on the other forms of creatine. One thing is for sure though, my water intake will be increased by 1.5 gallons per day if I do decide to use other forms of creatine.
I'll let you know what my blood test results are as soon as I get them...
06-15-2006, 05:34 PM
Well I received my results. My creatinine level was 1.4 on Pump Juice so I guess CEE is harder on ones kidneys.
06-15-2006, 06:25 PM
I too have been experiencing lower back pain and pain on my lower left hand side. I'm only taking CEE right now, so in comparing my experience with others it seems like I'm having some kidney irritation as well. Yes I have been drinking water like a fish too. I thought it might have been a liver problem. I'll discontinue and give it a few days before I call my doc.
Also, as I was googling this earlier, it seems that your average CEE product already contains a good portion of creatinine in the tub. This is according to the kre alkalyn website and the third party analysis posted on bodybuilding. com. Could ingesting so much creatinine straight off the bat be the culprit of these kidney problems?
06-15-2006, 06:31 PM
interesting postOriginally Posted by ocyeoman
06-16-2006, 12:29 AM
This is a real eye-opener. I've been on CEE for over 1 year now, although I typically keep it to within 1-3 grams per day. In checking my recent bloodwork, my creatinine is 1.1-1.2 mg/dl.
06-16-2006, 02:09 AM
hmmm thats very interestingOriginally Posted by SubliminalX
it would be nice to see more blood work from other people
06-16-2006, 01:38 PM
I found this study while snooping around the FDA website: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/doc...-06-vol181.pdf
It details a study in which five subjects were administered 5g of CEE a day. Of the five one developed higher than acceptable serum creatinine levels of 1.7 mg/dl. Not extraordinarily high, but it does give one pause. If an adverse effect occurred in such a small sample size what does that say of the population at large? What would happen with a much larger sample size? I think we are seeing the effects.
There seems to be a lot on the FDA website about CEE. Have a look see if interested. A few papers present data that cast aspersion on the stuff. I won't go there because it is off topic and sure to spark a flame, but much of the data suggests that creatine ethyl ester is at best just crappy monohydrate or at worst mostly ineffective. A total bummer for me. I just bought a kilo in bulk. I guess I'll be tossing it.
06-16-2006, 01:52 PM
It's great to see a board like this that is so helpful and allows others to learn and benifit from mistakes and successes we have all experinced. Thanks for all the great responses! I will be sticking to Creatines like "Pump Juice" from here on out as I like my kidneys.
06-16-2006, 01:57 PM
Yeah, dude. I'm thankful too. I plan on switching to a kre-alkalyn product like Pump Juice too. I have some confidence in that stuff since it doesn't convert to creatinine. At least you just excrete excess creatine. I believe Pump Juice is pretty similar to Get Diesel Nos Ether and I hear great things about that. I may give it a shot.Originally Posted by workin2005
06-16-2006, 02:05 PM
I think if you are going to use CEE, then you are better off using it for short periods of time(1 month) then take some time off. There is not any evidence to support year round usage of CEE without health effects.
Renal issues should always be taken seriously.
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