arginine inhibits creatine absorption?
- 05-15-2006, 11:26 PM
arginine inhibits creatine absorption?
According to the writeup from ALRI's N' Gorge
“Mitochondrial creatine transport was to a significant part dependent on the energetic state of mitochondria and was inhibited by arginine, and to some extent also by lysine, but not by other creatine analogues and related compounds.”
And this statement holds true whether , arginine-malate, or even AEE (arginine ethyl ester) is used in the formula! “Hmmm, no wonder I wasn’t getting any stronger or bigger on creatine/NO2 product ‘X, Y, or Z...I wasn’t even absorbing the freaking creatine!!”
Any info on this?
And if it is true, any way around it?
- 05-15-2006, 11:48 PM
I trust ALRI and I've stacked CEE with AEE and i could notice that the insane recovery between sets (CEE) was gone, i still got the pumps but when i dropped the Arginine the effects were back so ya that made a believer out of me. Alot of companies are wising up to this and adding L-Norvaline, i know VPX, SNS, Thermolife and Nutrex have to name a few.
07-23-2006, 10:18 PM
oh, wow. bump to this.
i wasn't big on arginine, even though i have and di-arginine malate. so doing the arginine/lysine (i do 1:2) is incompatible with creatines. ouch. i didn't do much with arginine, it did make me hungrier, sooner. i noticed larger musculature with di-arginine malate, for instance.
07-24-2006, 12:30 AM
Hey fellas. Don't jump to any conclusions yet but I don't think this one is legit. My ears perk up whenever I here things stated as fact when it comes to NO production or creatine, so I'm usually quick to jump in, but I realize that we all make boo boos from time to time. I think somewhere down the line, someone got confused. From what I've gathered, the energetic state of mitochondria is actually INDUCED by L-arginine. One of the most valuble sources of my info has been pdrhealth.com in wich you can find the two paragraphs in the article that I am going to post here at AM.Originally Posted by bulls**t
"Creatine, creatine kinase and phosphocreatine make up an intricate cellular energy buffering and transport system connecting sites of energy production in the mitochondria with sites of energy consumption".
"This results in sparing L-arginine, the limiting precursor in creatine synthesis. More availible L-arginine can lead to increased levels of nitric oxide"
Note the phrase.... "the limiting precursor in creatine synthesis"
This implies that creatine synthesis is actually dictated by L-arginine. This could easily be interperated as.... the precursor that limits creatine synthesis.
07-28-2006, 01:44 PM
09-04-2006, 03:49 PM
09-04-2006, 09:34 PM
All i know is that i'll be popping L-norvaline along with any arginine+creatine product i use that doesn't already contain it, just to be safe.
09-04-2006, 11:40 PM
Wise choice. Arginase is definetely something to avoid during workouts.Originally Posted by CHAPS
I have read some studies in the past where the induction of L-norv into the bloodstream, did infact show an increase in NO levels by 60%.
On a side note, HORSEPOWER has proven itself for me. It includes just about everything that I've ever wanted in a Creatine/NO product including the L-norv.... and no caffeine.
09-05-2006, 12:36 AM
09-05-2006, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by CHAPS
Yeah, I actually looked into NO-Shot but went with the HP, due to the caffeine. Wether it's sparring with friends in the MMA scene or just working out, I look to NO/Creatine products for an effective way to extend overall stamina, so I try to avoid the caffeine. (consume too much already)
Plus, if I was a big company in the fitness world, it would be really easy to manufacture an effective NO/Creatine product....
Put a label on it stating that it's a "Proprietary Blend" (hiding the truth from the consumer and allowing the company to only include small amounts of the costly, yet effective active ingredients, without the consumer ever knowing), and then just load the sh!t out of it with caffeine to make sure that it works.
The NO-Shot is kinda cool cuz it's got some BCAA's but I get enough of them anyway. Aside from the caffeine, the other thing that I didn't like about it was that they lumped together 10,952mg of the active ingredients in a proprietary blend.... so how much of the blend is really effective?
HP uses 3 different forms of creatine at about 4g a serving, and 2 different types of arginine at about 4g a serving. (plus citrulline and norvaline)
Proprietary Blends are not always bad in relation to the secondary ingredients, but in my opinion, they are when the company incorporates them into the main, active ingredients.
09-05-2006, 09:27 AM
I actually put togather something from Custom's powders that I really like.
3g creatine gluconate
tastes good and gives me energy and pumps.
09-05-2006, 04:11 PM
Right on. I was wondering how you came up with a figure for the 200mg of norv.... Just a guess? I've tried looking around (ingredient labels/studies) to get an idea of excactly how much to administer, but never really found much info. Also, what does the GMS stand for?Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
09-05-2006, 05:42 PM
i think on the container it said 200mg and no more. I was just following directions pretty much.Originally Posted by NO HYPE
GMS is Glycerol Mono Stearate Given that there are many different types of glycerols, we have found that GMS is far superior for bodybuilding applications.
Glycerol is a substance which has been shown to elevate blood plasma volume. Recent studies have shown that consuming glycerol before a workout can boost your ability to retain intra-muscular fluid by up to fifty percent.
Dosing should be about 1 part GMS to 1 part of active. For instance, one would consume 3 grams of GMS and 2.5 grams of CEE before a workout. You should note that by using GMS, the average dose of most active ingredients will be less than if used alone.
09-05-2006, 06:22 PM
Thanks. Great info.Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
I don't mean to derail this thread but I am a relatively new member, so bare with me here.... I was just curious if the guy in your last 2 avitar's, was in fact you? If so.... I'm speechless.
09-05-2006, 06:38 PM
09-05-2006, 09:15 PM
OOPS.... sorry CHAPS, I thought I put that in my last post.Originally Posted by CHAPS
09-05-2006, 09:18 PM
09-05-2006, 09:19 PM
Also anytime i see a company using 4 different types of creatines i laugh because they are obviously just trying to save money, i want creatine gluconate or cee in my supps that's it, no more monohydrate that stuff is outdated now.
09-05-2006, 10:28 PM
Well that's one way to look at it, especially if you see monohydrate on the label however, in my opinion (although it's not worth much), some companies formulate creatine blends and blends in general, to alternate absorbtion rates to ensure that the supplement gets delivered efficiently.Originally Posted by CHAPS
In one scoop of HP, there is 1.1g CEE, 1.5g Kre-Alkalyn, 1.5g Tri-Creatine Malate. Although this is a proprietary blend, the amounts of each active ingredient are listed. All three have been around for a while and they have a pretty good reputation. (although I've never found anything more effective than CEE)
If the budget was of concern to the manufacturer, Kre-Alkalyn or CEE would not be the most cost effective choice.
If I look at a label and find that the company just lumped multiple active ingredients together in a propietary blend.... I get p!ssed, and getting the consumer p!ssed ain't good.
09-11-2006, 09:57 PM
i take aakg and creatine gluconate . i havent noticed anything , as far as absorption. as far as strength im thinking creatine gluconate works better than mono without the bloat and not as much is needed.
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