Hormone related sides...

[Jason_L]

DHEA & 6OXO, Hormone related sides...

About 10 yrs ago I expirimented with DHEA. I took 300mg a day (it was a lot more expensive back then, otherwise I ould have gone for 1gr), and w/o any changes to diet and gym routine I dropped 20 lbs of fat in 5 weeks (no cardio). I had been training regulalry for about 10 years at the time, but I had started to gain some fat over a few years. The results in body composition were so astounding that I was accused of using steroids shortly after, and found myself on the Air Forces "random" drug testing every 6 months! LOL

Fast forward to now.. 10 years of desk work as a civilian, and I've got out of shape. I started working out again, so of course I try the DHEA since it had worked so well for me then (I know it's not very popular now, but it worked wonders for me back then). I added 6-oxo at 600mg and saw palmetto to my supplements as well.

After a week of adding the 6-oxo in the evening, I started experiencing these sides:
night sweats, headaches, lethargy yet shallow sleep (I am beat and go to bed much earlier then usual, yet wake up several times throughout the night).

These are sides seen with some anabolic steroids, and my mother pointed out that they sound like menopause (pretty funny). My guess is it's from low estrogen due to the 6-oxo. But I have not been able to find anyone with similar sides from it, and everyone who uses it with dhea seems to use the 7keto dhea.

Any thoughts? Anyone have similar experiences?

 

[the Cardinal]

Re: DHEA & 6OXO, Hormone related sides...

About 10 yrs ago I expirimented with DHEA. I took 300mg a day (it was a lot more expensive back then, otherwise I ould have gone for 1gr), and w/o any changes to diet and gym routine I dropped 20 lbs of fat in 5 weeks (no cardio). I had been training regulalry for about 10 years at the time, but I had started to gain some fat over a few years. The results in body composition were so astounding that I was accused of using steroids shortly after, and found myself on the Air Forces "random" drug testing every 6 months! LOL

Fast forward to now.. 10 years of desk work as a civilian, and I've got out of shape. I started working out again, so of course I try the DHEA since it had worked so well for me then (I know it's not very popular now, but it worked wonders for me back then). I added 6-oxo at 600mg and saw palmetto to my supplements as well.

After a week of adding the 6-oxo in the evening, I started experiencing these sides:
night sweats, headaches, lethargy yet shallow sleep (I am beat and go to bed much earlier then usual, yet wake up several times throughout the night).

These are sides seen with some anabolic steroids, and my mother pointed out that they sound like menopause (pretty funny). My guess is it's from low estrogen due to the 6-oxo. But I have not been able to find anyone with similar sides from it, and everyone who uses it with dhea seems to use the 7keto dhea.

Any thoughts? Anyone have similar experiences?

If the 6-oxo is the problem, then drop the 6-oxo. If you are looking to boost testosterone levels and reduce estrogen levels, there are quite a few alternatives to 6-oxo on the market (and arguably, more effective), many of which are either offered by or can be obtained through some of this board's sponsors. Check out anti-e topics on this board as a start.

 

[Jason_L]

Re: DHEA & 6OXO, Hormone related sides...

If the 6-oxo is the problem, then drop the 6-oxo. If you are looking to boost testosterone levels and reduce estrogen levels, there are quite a few alternatives to 6-oxo on the market (and arguably, more effective), many of which are either offered by or can be obtained through some of this board's sponsors. Check out anti-e topics on this board as a start.

Thanks for the reply Cardinal. I don't think it's a problem per-se. Since 6oxo is as an AI, then low estrogen sides are evidence that it is working (if they are in fact low estrogen related). I decided to use an AI to attempt to counter the elevated estrogen that some DHEA studies show in men. I already respond quite well to DHEA (weightloss), but I figured cutting estrogen could only help I wasn't primarily interested in elevated test levels from the 6oxo, although the possible synergy of dhea/6oxo was in the back of mind for future expirementing.

I will be hitting the sponsors plenty in the near future

 

[FYI777]

Jason I'm assuming 300mg. of DHEA as you didn't specify exactly what you are now taking.
I would omit the 6-oxo,maybe the saw palmetto too,you got great results before w/o it and you are trying to reproduce the results you got before(10 years ago).I would go with the DHEA solo like you did before first for a while.If I did an experiment 10 years ago with a specific formula I wouldn't expect the experiment to be a sucess later changing the formula.(by adding the 6-oxo and saw palmetto)
By the way that's awesome that you got the great results you did (10 years ago) and I can't see why it wouldn't work that way again.
Why you decide to add 6-oxo and saw palmetto?

 

[Jason_L]

Jason I'm assuming 300mg. of DHEA as you didn't specify exactly what you are now taking.
I would omit the 6-oxo,maybe the saw palmetto too,you got great results before w/o it and you are trying to reproduce the results you got before(10 years ago).I would go with the DHEA solo like you did before first for a while.If I did an experiment 10 years ago with a specific formula I wouldn't expect the experiment to be a sucess later changing the formula.(by adding the 6-oxo and saw palmetto)
By the way that's awesome that you got the great results you did (10 years ago) and I can't see why it wouldn't work that way again.
Why you decide to add 6-oxo and saw palmetto?

6oxo was simply to offest the estrogen gains from the DHEA. Back in 96 when I researched/used it, the estrogen thing never came up in the studies I found.

The saw palmetto I added because I figured if I was messing around with hormone levels, it wouldn't hurt. Back when I was 26, I never thought of prostate issues, dht, etc. When I explained the 6oxo to my father, and it's reported effects on test, the first thing he said was "you might want to look at saw palmetto for prostate issues - you ARE getting older". It made sense, so I added it to my supplements.

You are right about sticking to what works - I went 4 weeks with just straight 300mg of DHEA before adding the 6oxo, and i went down 2 inches in waist on my pants I started at 225lbs, 36" waist (5'10), and ended at 211, 34". I am sure I put some muscle on, as I started lifting again 3 months ago after a very long vacation from the gym (5 years), so I'm getting decent "muscle memory" gains. again, no cardio - just lifting and playing catch with my son

I have actually cut out the dhea/6oxo for the time, as I figure out an expirment for the next 2 inches I'm thinking of home brewing a local fat burner (yohimbine) and a transdermal dhea/7oxo with a sublingual 6oxo (if it is possible). I'm thinking of getting hormone tests (t,e,dhea), baseline and at the end of the cycle.

 

[FYI777]

Having taken 25mg. DHEA sporadically(nada apparent effects),then more steadily(also nada/negligible),now at 50mg. steadily everyday I haven't gotten spectacular results on my stubborn love handle/belly area but some improvements.I do try to incorporate cardio(which I never much did before).I think cardio could only help the D to work better,I recommend it for you also as you mentioned wanting to lose another 2".
By the way did you ever just cut out the 6-oxo only to see if those troublesome symptoms went away?That would have yielded good data on the experiment and helped me and others as well.Not that you and me would necessarily responded exactly the same(individual biochemical makeups are not necessarily the same)
I think transdermals are good but sometimes a pain-in-the-*** to use.Better bioavailability tho.
With me I will increase dose of D,but not sure how long for optimal fat-burning effect of D to manifest.You mentioned you saw results in a month,but that would also be a factor of dosage I would assume ie. higher dosage,faster results/better results.I'm assuming you had effects stop there at one month,no more fat lose?
You could also try LX(Lean-Extreme)(a metabolite of DHEA),I think it would work better for you than 6-oxo or 7-keto for that matter,but it is pricey.I've tried it with good results on fat burning,but I want to see if I can get same results w/D.Theoretically I should be able. Maybe I'll add a lower dose of the LX to the protocol(experiment).But in a controlled way so I can see what's doing what,not throwing a whole cabash in,mixing n matching things,using fat loss as visible effect/variable.

 

[Jason_L]

Having taken 25mg. DHEA sporadically(nada apparent effects),then more steadily(also nada/negligible),now at 50mg. steadily everyday I haven't gotten spectacular results on my stubborn love handle/belly area but some improvements.I do try to incorporate cardio(which I never much did before).I think cardio could only help the D to work better,I recommend it for you also as you mentioned wanting to lose another 2".
By the way did you ever just cut out the 6-oxo only to see if those troublesome symptoms went away?That would have yielded good data on the experiment and helped me and others as well.Not that you and me would necessarily responded exactly the same(individual biochemical makeups are not necessarily the same)
I think transdermals are good but sometimes a pain-in-the-*** to use.Better bioavailability tho.
With me I will increase dose of D,but not sure how long for optimal fat-burning effect of D to manifest.You mentioned you saw results in a month,but that would also be a factor of dosage I would assume ie. higher dosage,faster results/better results.I'm assuming you had effects stop there at one month,no more fat lose?
You could also try LX(Lean-Extreme)(a metabolite of DHEA),I think it would work better for you than 6-oxo or 7-keto for that matter,but it is pricey.I've tried it with good results on fat burning,but I want to see if I can get same results w/D.Theoretically I should be able. Maybe I'll add a lower dose of the LX to the protocol(experiment).But in a controlled way so I can see what's doing what,not throwing a whole cabash in,mixing n matching things,using fat loss as visible effect/variable.

I didn't find the sides troublesome if they were in fact "low estrogen" related. Estrogen and weightloss don't really go hand in hand In fact, if the sides are from 'low' estrogen, and not 'high' (which i can not confirm yet), then the sides are a pretty good sign that the 6oxo was working. If they are from high estrogen, then the opposite is true. I guess I won't know until I do hormone tests the next time around.

I am leary of totaling replacing dhea with a metabolyte, as I do not know what mechanisms were in play when I see such dramatic weight loss with dhea. One thing I do know is that elevated estrogen does not do it nor help If i drop 6oxo it will be replaced with another AI.

Lean Extreme: hmm, I think I am going to look into it's main ingredient Synephrine some more.. thanks for pointing it out to me. Although I'm pretty immune to CNS stim sides, I did sometime got some from ephadrine/caf/asprin stacks when I was younger. I'm 36 now, so I am more 'aware' of heart issues This Synephrine seems like it may be the route to go for thermo .. I don't see anything linking it to dhea though?

 

[FYI777]

Jason it sounds like definite LOW estrogen to me,which means yes the 6-oxo works.If it was high estrogen you would get gyno which you obviously didn't.

Jason,LX is 7hydroxy-DHEA,if I'm wrong please somebody point this out.
Anyway,when you take DHEA it goes thru metabolism(in the body),thru different routes.Some gets converted to test(hopefully,but doesn't seem to much,I'm not sure but this could be where the estrogen comes from or direct conversion or aratomization?)There have been so many debates on this it's ridiculous.Some say estrogen some say 5-androstendiol,probably varies with different people,what they eat or drink(alcohol causes higher rates of aratomization).
From the writeup of 7OH(go to DS website) it mentions that fat-loss is due to anti-cortisol effects.LX has no synephrine(thats a thermogenic,also good for fat loss) in it.50mg of only 7OHDHEA.It seems also to have some effects on thyroid,increases T4 to T3 I believe.That would also help w/weight loss.I don't get no comm. or anything for plugging this product tho,sorry for sounding like a sales pitch.
Again LX has no synephrine in it.

 

[Jason_L]

Jason it sounds like definite LOW estrogen to me,which means yes the 6-oxo works.If it was high estrogen you would get gyno which you obviously didn't.

Jason,LX is 7hydroxy-DHEA,if I'm wrong please somebody point this out.
Anyway,when you take DHEA it goes thru metabolism(in the body),thru different routes.Some gets converted to test(hopefully,but doesn't seem to much,I'm not sure but this could be where the estrogen comes from or direct conversion or aratomization?)There have been so many debates on this it's ridiculous.Some say estrogen some say 5-androstendiol,probably varies with different people,what they eat or drink(alcohol causes higher rates of aratomization).
From the writeup of 7OH(go to DS website) it mentions that fat-loss is due to anti-cortisol effects.LX has no synephrine(thats a thermogenic,also good for fat loss) in it.50mg of only 7OHDHEA.It seems also to have some effects on thyroid,increases T4 to T3 I believe.That would also help w/weight loss.I don't get no comm. or anything for plugging this product tho,sorry for sounding like a sales pitch.
Again LX has no synephrine in it.

my bad - i was looking at "thermo lean extreme" - not the same product
I'm familiar with the DHEA studies But as you pointed out, there's a lot of debate on it's mechanisms, etc... so I'm hesitant to replace it with a metabolyte when it has worked so good for me. Maybe I'll convince a friend to guinea pig it
I went off of it for now so I can get some baseline hormone tests done.

 

[FYI777]

I'm getting real interested in the potentials of DHEA lately,not sure why,maybe 1) as you mentioned long ago it was expensive and hard to get(mostly AIDS folks wanted it) and 2) I think it went thru a "fad " whereby its potentials have been forgotten(including by me).You gotta admit the stuff is inexpensive as *** now,hopefully staying in the OTC catagory.:cheers: