Sann V12

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    Sann V12


    Been hearing really good things about this.. was thinking of trying some.. anyone here try this?

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    Got to it late, but I think you know what my opinion is. Its definetly worth it.
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    Post a link or something, for those of us that don't know
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    Upon request! Here's 2 of them that got interesting.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=65208

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=72949

    There is a reason why some people don't like it and there posts counts should tell you something.

    I tried Swole and V-12 and I've recieved better results with V-12. Long lasting pumps, increased vascularity, and increase in strenght.
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    On Bobo's rec alone, I am going to be trying this V12. Looking forward to it and will post my results.
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    Sounds good win. Try taking it pre-workout with some form of carb drink....This works best for me.
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    I just got some.. Im taking it with grape juice... man this stuff is SWEET even with a 16 oz glass its really sweet.. anyway ill post my results in a few days
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    Yeah it sounds good. I will try after I finish the boatload of creatine I am sitting on.
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    ok well ive been taking v-12 for a little over 2 weeks now and havent noticed anything really.. no increased pumps no increased vascularity nothing.. i have also tried taking 4 grams of arginine 3 times a day and felt nothing... i havent changed my diet or training.. guess these products just dont have any effect on some people.. i also dont respond to creatine.. i heard people who dont respond to creatine will respond to this.. oh well
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    I've been using it for about 6 days, no real results yet I guess. I started the day after ending my ONE cycle, regular creatine makes me look like a bubble. I liked swole, so, I figured I'd try this out, better reviews.
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    So your not swelling up with water like usual?
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    Nope.

    I'm not sure why, but, I have kept my vascularity since stopping ONE. Could this be from v12? I am not usually vascular at all, and my bf% is a little high for it to be this prevalent. Oh well, I'm not complaining.
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    Alright I'm thinking about jumping on the bandwagon, and trying this after just blowing right by anything I saw on it for so long. I just got done reading Bobo's 12 page thread @ bb.com, and I have just one question. I have been using Creapure for 7 weeks now. I've tried just about every kind of creatine known, and I have never really gotten much from them. My question is do you think I can get away with staying off the Creapure for just 2 weeks before going with the V12? Before this past cycle of creatine it has been over a year since I have done it.
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    V-12 is an excellent product IMHO. I've used it with great results......
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    when u take it did u just do a dose in the morning and one pre workout? or did u take another post workout?? or just take some regular creatine after your workout??
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    Take it twice a day on workout days, once on non-workout days before or with a meal.


    Spread the doses out by at least 8 hours.


    N'Pursuit, you should be fine. Many non-responders to creatine find that products like V-12 and Swole work. The theory is that these products include pre-cursors to creatine therefore enbaling your own bodies natural creatine production to increase. Many non-responders to creatine do not react well to outside sources of pure creatine so these pre-cursors seem to work. Its theroy as no proof of this has been established but the results from many non-responders point to this being true.
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    Well, for me personally, Swole worked better than V-12, but I have a few friends that like V-12 better. V-12 is basically swole with AKG, so maybe that is the reason some seem to like it better. That being said, at the end of this month Swole v.2 will be out and after checking out its ingredients I think hands down it will be better than V-12.
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    I've been using V-12 for abour 2 weeks now, per Bobo's recommendation I love this stuff, it reminds me of when I first used creatine back in the day, it actually works! I've been more pumped and have actually had a slight increase in some lifts (yes, while cutting, but my cals aren't real low). A+
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    thought I posted in this thread awhile ago... apparently not, oh well... V-12 is some kickass ****, I had never responded very well to creatine mono, and v12 has been great. definitely worth the coin.
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    so, most of you are just doin 1 dose on non w/o days and 2 on workout days... i have not seen any of ya post weather or not you are throwing any extra creatine in post work out?
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    Originally posted by Nicolai
    so, most of you are just doin 1 dose on non w/o days and 2 on workout days... i have not seen any of ya post weather or not you are throwing any extra creatine in post work out?
    yep, one dose in the morning and on workout days one preworkout. That's it for me.
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    i got a bottle of the orange v-12 im sick of already 2 servings were used if anyone is interested pm me the taste is something i cant take
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    i hear ya man... if it is anything like cell-techs orange flavor... gah! i would actually gag and **** when trying to down it.
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    Originally posted by wojo
    i got a bottle of the orange v-12 im sick of already 2 servings were used if anyone is interested pm me the taste is something i cant take
    I think it's great! ... (especially if you've compared it to bung-swole )... bummer. tried it in grape juice once as well, thought it was ****ing awesome... can see where it would be too sweet for people though.
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    Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Well, for me personally, Swole worked better than V-12, but I have a few friends that like V-12 better. V-12 is basically swole with AKG, so maybe that is the reason some seem to like it better. That being said, at the end of this month Swole v.2 will be out and after checking out its ingredients I think hands down it will be better than V-12.
    I like to know why you think this. I saw the ingredients. It doesn't look that impressive at all. Looks to me its just to counter V-12 since it seems to be taking some sales away from Swole.

    Only thing I see is they are adding GPA and Taurine. Both components don't represent anything new in terms of performance.
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    Like I said before, Swole works better for me than V-12 does. The new formula will be better by adding GPA and taurine. V-12 doesn't have Glucuronolactone which I find to be a very good addition to swoles ingredient list. Its just a personal preference, plus I don't really like SAN because of their Loaded product, which now has GPA, but no creatine in it, which is really dangerous. Heart problems galore down the line. I think SAN is irresponsible.
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    Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Like I said before, Swole works better for me than V-12 does. The new formula will be better by adding GPA and taurine. V-12 doesn't have Glucuronolactone which I find to be a very good addition to swoles ingredient list. Its just a personal preference, plus I don't really like SAN because of their Loaded product, which now has GPA, but no creatine in it, which is really dangerous. Heart problems galore down the line. I think SAN is irresponsible.
    Umm...I don't think so. Derek went off about people using glycocyamine without a methylating agent yet isomatrix doesn't have one. Syntrax representatives have been caugh over at bb.com posting under several names with the same IP badmouthing V-12 saying it didn't work at all. He calimed that V-12 didn't have a methylating agent but it has Betaine also known as Tri-Methylglycine.

    "Cause your daily protein consists of choline which is known to be a supplemental methyl donor. For those still concerned include 1.5 grams of betaine (and this would be the right ratio BTW) to your diet which I believe is not necessary as test subject experimented with doses as high as 5grams of glycocyamine per day for 6 weeks straight. "

    I guess thats why glycocyamine is included in Isomatrix. They badmouthed SAN because of one issue and if your familiar with the company you would know. I'm not brining up names. After all is said and done, its Syntrax who appears to be irresponsible. I have studies for the above comments too, but I don't think we need to get into this. I already have months ago.


    Loaded contained GPA now all of sudden Syntrax is using it. Taurine is already in V-12 and now Syntrax is using it. Loaded contained R-LA and now Syntrax released an R-LA product. You tell me. If your concerned about the long term use, cycle it like both products recommend and you won't have problems. I think both companies have good products but your comment on reputation is unfounded considering many circumstances.
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    actually bobo ur dead wrong about people in syntrax posting over at bb.com ,dont believe me ask ryan,.....i too prefer swole over v-12 but some like chocolate other vanilla and some strawberry.. nag was ripped off by san from syntrax and theres a lawsuit pending because of it.(believe me i am familar with the name u were going to drop hes a good guy ).isomatrix is being reformulated to remove the glyco just a fyi....
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    Are you telling me Bobo that GPA doesn't displace creatine in the muscle? Cause I've read the studies that show that it does. I will find them and post them. How do you think your heart is going to react once the creatine is gone or severly depleted? Hey if you feel fine about, more power to you, but I will refrain from using their products. All SAN had to do with Loaded, is either add a little creatine to it or just put on the bottle to take some with it. Simple.
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    Sure post them. Then post something telling me it will do more than what glycocyamine.
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    Originally posted by wojo
    actually bobo ur dead wrong about people in syntrax posting over at bb.com ,dont believe me ask ryan,.....i too prefer swole over v-12 but some like chocolate other vanilla and some strawberry.. nag was ripped off by san from syntrax and theres a lawsuit pending because of it.(believe me i am familar with the name u were going to drop hes a good guy ).isomatrix is being reformulated to remove the glyco just a fyi....
    Actually I'm not because I saw the trace and what the IP was registered too. THey also thought they could hide by using proxy servers but there are ways around that and we saw that also. But you won't here anyone mentioniong that since both companies sell products on the board. When it happened, people knew it. Now they just deny it. Beleive what you want. You can go read the posts over there and see for yourself. I think the reason was that several people registered under different names with small post counts bashing SAN. So obviously it looked suspicious and proved to be right. Beleive what you want, I know what happened.

    You can check the lawsuit easily. Its posted. Its another one thats bunk. Just like the one about tricreatine malate. Even Bill L saw that in the original post and posted it was a joke. Lawsuits mean nothing. They are accusations until proven. It hasn't. I could file a lawsuit about anything. Doesn't make it true.

    Yes I know he's a good guy. All of sudden SAN if doing very well and Syntrax is reformulating and redoing their products. Wonder why. I don't really care anyway.
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    Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Are you telling me Bobo that GPA doesn't displace creatine in the muscle? Cause I've read the studies that show that it does. I will find them and post them. How do you think your heart is going to react once the creatine is gone or severly depleted? Hey if you feel fine about, more power to you, but I will refrain from using their products. All SAN had to do with Loaded, is either add a little creatine to it or just put on the bottle to take some with it. Simple.
    Actually they say its best used with V-12. Why? They are all insulin mimickers and of course it would work well with creatine.


    I would also like you to explain why you would have heart problems. I just want to know what your reasoning is behind this. From the post above your extremely general and don't really explain why it would cause problems.
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    Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
    Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

    C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
    G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

    ABSTRACT

    The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37 C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.



    This shows GPA is great, when used with extra creatine. I also found a couple of studies showing that GPA with creatine greatly retards certain cancer cell growth, and enhances chemotherapy for cancer. I will post more when I find them.

    What was your ? about glycocamine(sp?) again?
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    Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
    Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

    C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
    G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

    ABSTRACT

    The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37 C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.



    This shows GPA is great, when used with extra creatine. I also found a couple of studies showing that GPA with creatine greatly retards certain cancer cell growth, and enhances chemotherapy for cancer. I will post more when I find them.

    What was your ? about glycocamine(sp?) again?
    One problem. Glycocyamine does the same exact thing. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but that its nothing new that will increase this product that much. Simple as that. ALA will do the same and is a much better anti-oxidant than all those combined.

    The study also says it may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake. Both prodcuts do this and is one of the main reasons why you don't get the bloat. Its intracellular. This is nothing new.

    "However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.
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    Originally posted at bb.com

    "Originally posted by D&G
    Quit spamming the boards -

    IBLarge
    Vincetheman
    Pumpmaster
    Off the Hook

    All registered under the same IP and using proxies for some of the posts on the boards, except I found a few posts where you forgot your proxy and your Syntrax IP showed up!"


    Just wanted to show when this all started. Now I don't want to get more into this because truthfully its none of our business. I just think when your bring up the issue of reputation, you should know the whole story.
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    http://bj.portlandpress.co.uk/bj/350/0547/3500547.pdf

    This is a rather interesting study. It shows GPA supplementation reduces skeletal muscle ATP and phosphocreatine levels 50% to 90%.

    Also the GPA fed rats weighed 10% less than the control rats at the time of their deaths.
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    All I'm trying to say is if you use a product with GPA in it, make sure you use creatine with it. Thats all. I will shut up now.
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    Umm...I will repeat this again. Glycocyamine does the same thing. I could post 100 studies on creatine uptake with carbs, GPA, glycyamine, ALA, vanadyl, etc.....



    Why should I use creatine with it? You still haven't answered the question or the health problems. I can say the same about ALA and glycyamine. You should use it with creatine. Bro, Loaded is advertised as an insulin potentiator. Your supposed to use it with creatine. It increases uptake. You don't need to include it in the prodcut. Thats like saying every bottle of ALA needs creatine with it.
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    THe study was also in creatine deplete rats and its effect on endurance training.

    "In this regard, the perturbation induced by chronic feeding of GPA, a competitive inhibitor of creatien import through the sarcolemma, provides evidence that the depletion of muscle tissue ATP and creatine phosphate might mediate mitochondrial adaptations in skeletal muscle"

    Is this what your basing your theroy on? Just curious..
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    Lv. Percent
    66.25%

    I don't think creatine depletion in the heart muscle would be a very good thing over time. Maybe I'm wrong. Sure, you and I know what to take Loaded with, but the average Joe Shmoe, doesn't. Why can't SAN just put a little note on the bottle. Why are you defending them so hard? Glycocamine doesn't deplete creatine in the muscle, at least not in any study I've seen. All I'm saying is that SAN could have done a couple of simple things to protect the consumer, but they chose to just worry about the money, customers health be damned.
  

  
 

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