Sann V12

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  1. Originally posted by wojo
    actually bobo ur dead wrong about people in syntrax posting over at bb.com ,dont believe me ask ryan,.....i too prefer swole over v-12 but some like chocolate other vanilla and some strawberry.. nag was ripped off by san from syntrax and theres a lawsuit pending because of it.(believe me i am familar with the name u were going to drop hes a good guy ).isomatrix is being reformulated to remove the glyco just a fyi....
    Actually I'm not because I saw the trace and what the IP was registered too. THey also thought they could hide by using proxy servers but there are ways around that and we saw that also. But you won't here anyone mentioniong that since both companies sell products on the board. When it happened, people knew it. Now they just deny it. Beleive what you want. You can go read the posts over there and see for yourself. I think the reason was that several people registered under different names with small post counts bashing SAN. So obviously it looked suspicious and proved to be right. Beleive what you want, I know what happened.

    You can check the lawsuit easily. Its posted. Its another one thats bunk. Just like the one about tricreatine malate. Even Bill L saw that in the original post and posted it was a joke. Lawsuits mean nothing. They are accusations until proven. It hasn't. I could file a lawsuit about anything. Doesn't make it true.

    Yes I know he's a good guy. All of sudden SAN if doing very well and Syntrax is reformulating and redoing their products. Wonder why. I don't really care anyway.
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  2. Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Are you telling me Bobo that GPA doesn't displace creatine in the muscle? Cause I've read the studies that show that it does. I will find them and post them. How do you think your heart is going to react once the creatine is gone or severly depleted? Hey if you feel fine about, more power to you, but I will refrain from using their products. All SAN had to do with Loaded, is either add a little creatine to it or just put on the bottle to take some with it. Simple.
    Actually they say its best used with V-12. Why? They are all insulin mimickers and of course it would work well with creatine.


    I would also like you to explain why you would have heart problems. I just want to know what your reasoning is behind this. From the post above your extremely general and don't really explain why it would cause problems.
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  3. Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
    Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

    C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
    G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

    ABSTRACT

    The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37° C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.



    This shows GPA is great, when used with extra creatine. I also found a couple of studies showing that GPA with creatine greatly retards certain cancer cell growth, and enhances chemotherapy for cancer. I will post more when I find them.

    What was your ? about glycocamine(sp?) again?

  4. Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
    Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

    C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
    G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

    ABSTRACT

    The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37° C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.



    This shows GPA is great, when used with extra creatine. I also found a couple of studies showing that GPA with creatine greatly retards certain cancer cell growth, and enhances chemotherapy for cancer. I will post more when I find them.

    What was your ? about glycocamine(sp?) again?
    One problem. Glycocyamine does the same exact thing. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but that its nothing new that will increase this product that much. Simple as that. ALA will do the same and is a much better anti-oxidant than all those combined.

    The study also says it may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake. Both prodcuts do this and is one of the main reasons why you don't get the bloat. Its intracellular. This is nothing new.

    "However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.
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  5. Originally posted at bb.com

    "Originally posted by D&G
    Quit spamming the boards -

    IBLarge
    Vincetheman
    Pumpmaster
    Off the Hook

    All registered under the same IP and using proxies for some of the posts on the boards, except I found a few posts where you forgot your proxy and your Syntrax IP showed up!"


    Just wanted to show when this all started. Now I don't want to get more into this because truthfully its none of our business. I just think when your bring up the issue of reputation, you should know the whole story.
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  6. http://bj.portlandpress.co.uk/bj/350/0547/3500547.pdf

    This is a rather interesting study. It shows GPA supplementation reduces skeletal muscle ATP and phosphocreatine levels 50% to 90%.

    Also the GPA fed rats weighed 10% less than the control rats at the time of their deaths.

  7. All I'm trying to say is if you use a product with GPA in it, make sure you use creatine with it. Thats all. I will shut up now.

  8. Umm...I will repeat this again. Glycocyamine does the same thing. I could post 100 studies on creatine uptake with carbs, GPA, glycyamine, ALA, vanadyl, etc.....



    Why should I use creatine with it? You still haven't answered the question or the health problems. I can say the same about ALA and glycyamine. You should use it with creatine. Bro, Loaded is advertised as an insulin potentiator. Your supposed to use it with creatine. It increases uptake. You don't need to include it in the prodcut. Thats like saying every bottle of ALA needs creatine with it.
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  9. THe study was also in creatine deplete rats and its effect on endurance training.

    "In this regard, the perturbation induced by chronic feeding of GPA, a competitive inhibitor of creatien import through the sarcolemma, provides evidence that the depletion of muscle tissue ATP and creatine phosphate might mediate mitochondrial adaptations in skeletal muscle"

    Is this what your basing your theroy on? Just curious..
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  10. I don't think creatine depletion in the heart muscle would be a very good thing over time. Maybe I'm wrong. Sure, you and I know what to take Loaded with, but the average Joe Shmoe, doesn't. Why can't SAN just put a little note on the bottle. Why are you defending them so hard? Glycocamine doesn't deplete creatine in the muscle, at least not in any study I've seen. All I'm saying is that SAN could have done a couple of simple things to protect the consumer, but they chose to just worry about the money, customers health be damned.
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  11. Bro, the depletion was in skeletal muscle, not the heart. I'm defending them because you said they have a bad reputation. Syntrax was the one who put glycocyamine into Isomatrix then claimed you NEED a methylating agent. Syntrax is the one who posted under false names bashing another company. MS and J both said they worked for SAN. They were honest and upfront. Syntrax was not. They are ones who put a product out with possible health problems (i don't beleive it anyway) before SAN did. You do the math. You not reading the posts. Please re-read them.
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  12. Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    All I'm saying is that SAN could have done a couple of simple things to protect the consumer, but they chose to just worry about the money, customers health be damned.
    The disclaimer is on every bottle just like every prohormone bottle and creatine supplement. Your having tunnel vision here. Plus your assumption about heart problems is completely false anyway so its a moot point.
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  13. First I never said SAN had a bad rep. I stated my opinion that they are irresponsible. If skeletal muscle can be depleted of creatine then so can cardiac tissue, with use of GPA.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree. Good debate though, enjoyed it. This is what I love about this board, one can argue with another, without it getting flamy.

    I have to go to bed now, hitting the gym at 6am. Thanks for the debate Bobo.

  14. Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    First I never said SAN had a bad rep. I stated my opinion that they are irresponsible. If skeletal muscle can be depleted of creatine then so can cardiac tissue, with use of GPA.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree. Good debate though, enjoyed it. This is what I love about this board, one can argue with another, without it getting flamy.

    I have to go to bed now, hitting the gym at 6am. Thanks for the debate Bobo.
    Its a completely different type bro. Its a voluntary vs. involuntary and thats the most general explanation. You can't just assume GPA will do the same with your heart. Thats a HUGE leap. I don't think they are irresponsible. Every supp company out there does the exact same thing. I've already shown how syntrax does it. If you hold SAN to those standards, hold Syntrax to the same. Thats all I ask.
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  15. Fair enough

  16. Found some interesting info for thos worried about using GPA without creatine.


    Current Patents on GPA itself…Without using Creatine



    R. P. Shields, C. K. Whitehair, R. E. Carrow, W. W. Heusner, and W. D. Van Huss: Skeletal muscle function and structure after depletion of creatine. Lab. Invest. 33: 151-158, 1975, indicates that 3-guanidinopropionic acid results in decreased exercise tolerance in rats. In T. S. Moerland, N. G. Wolf, and M. J. Kushmerick, Administration of a creatine analogue induces isomyosin transitions in muscle. Am. J. Physiol. 257:C810-C816, 1989, 3-guanidinopropionic acid was observed to have no effect on spontaneous running activity in mice.

    U.S. patent application, Ser. No. 07/486,615, filed 28 Feb. 1990, discloses a method of using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat or prevent excess adiposity. U.S. Patent application, Ser. No. 07/712,862, filed 10 Jun. 1991, discloses a method of using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). The following international patent applications correspond to the above U.S. patent applications: PCT/US 91/00334, filed 22 Jan. 1991, and PCT/US 91/01109, filed 27 Feb. 1991. U.S. Pat. No. 3,843,798 discloses a method for using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat bacterial infections and pharmaceutical compositions useful therefor.

    British patents 1,195,199and 1,195,200 and 1,552,179 refer to pharmaceutical compositions of guanidinoalkanoic acids, their esters and amides, in combination with insulin or inhibitors of hepatic gluconeogensis.

    Moreland, Am. J. Physiol. 257 (Cell Physiol 26): C810-816, 1989) discloses 3-GPA as ineffective on blood glucose when administered in food to rats in high concentrations.







    SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

    The present invention particularly provides:

    A method of increasing endurance, stamina or exercise capacity in a mammal which comprises:

    the administration to the mammal of an amount of 3-guanidinopropionic acid or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof effective to increase the endurance, stamina or exercise capacity of the mammal.

    The present invention also provides a food product which comprises:

    a) a food; and

    b) 3-guanidinopropionic acid or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof in an amount effective to:

    1) increase the endurance, stamina or exercise capacity of a mammal in need thereof;

    2) treat excess adiposity in a mammal in need thereof; or

    3) treat non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) in a mammal in need thereof.

    By "3-GPA" is meant 3-guanidinopropionic acid. Pharmaceutically acceptable salts of 3-guanidinopropionic acid are described in the references cited above and are well known to one of ordinary skill in the art.

    By "increasing endurance, stamina or exercise capacity" is meant as increase in the ability to participate in or maintain participation in physical activity, such as exercise.

    By "mammal" is meant any of a class (Mammalia) of higher vertebrates comprising man and all other animals that nourish their young with milk secreted by mammary glands and have the skin usually more or less covered with hair. Especially included in this definition are human beings, whose endurance, stamina or exercise capacity is less than optimal. Such human and non-human animals are readily diagnosed by a physician or veterinarian of ordinary skill.

    By "food" or "food product" is meant a material used in the body of a mammal to sustain growth, repair, and vital processes and to furnish energy. Both solid and liquid food products are included.

    By "food additive" is meant a substance that is added to a food or food product.

    By "nutritional supplement" is meant a substance that supplements a mammal's nutrition, such as vitamins.

    The dosage regimen for 3-guanidinopropionic acid in accord with this invention will depend on the body weight of the patient. Typically, the dose of 3-guanidinopropionic acid to be used is between 10 and 4000 mg/kg body weight daily. The preferred dose is 10-400 mg/kg/day.

    3-Guanidinopropionic acid may be administered by any convenient route of administration, e.g., orally, parenterally, intranasally, intranasally, intrarectally, or topically. The oral route is preferred.

    The above compositions may be administered in a sustained release formulation. By sustained release is meant a formulation in which the drug becomes biologically available to the patient at a measured rate over a prolonged period. Such compositions are well-known in the art.

    3-GPA may be administered orally in conventional foodstuffs. For example, 3-GPA may be dissolved in juices, such as orange juice, preferably at a concentration of 75 mg/ml and taken by mouth. 3-GPA is adaptable to making a flavored dry mix which is constituted into a flavored beverage by simply adding water. These flavored mixes typically contain a viscosity inducing agent such as a gum or low molecular weight synthetic polymer; flavoring agents such as sucrose, aspartame or sodium saccharin; colorants; wetting agents or surfactants such as dioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate or sodium lauryl sulfate; agents to provide tartness and control acidity such as citric acid, ascorbic acid, potassium citrate or sodium citrate; flavorants such as lemon or orange; and preservative such as BHA. Similarly, 3-GPA can be used as an additive to powdered food products, including pudding and pie filling mixes, gelatin, cake mixes, powdered eggs and powdered potatoes, instant breakfast drinks, gravies and sauces (e.g., Hollandaise), prepared cereal products (e.g., oatmeal, cream of wheat, hominy grits), and drink mixes (e.g., powdered fruit punches, powdered fruit drinks). Likewise, 3-GPA can be used in prepared foods themselves; for example, it can be used as an additive in cakes, pasta products, candy, cookies, confections, yogurts, including frozen yogurt products, ice cream and ice ream products and prepared meats (hamburger, sausages and the like).

    The effective amount of 3-GPA is liquid food products ranges from 10 to 400 mg/ml. Preferably the amount ranges from 70 to 300 mg/ml, with 75 mg/ml being most preferred. The effective amount of 3-GPA in solid food products ranges from 1 to 500 mg/g.

    In the present invention, it has been found that 3-GPA increases exercise tolerance in normal mice (FIG. 1 and Table 1). Thus the present invention may be useful in treating muscular dysfunction, such as post-poliomyelitis chronic muscle fatigue syndrome or muscular and therefore is beneficial in treating or preventing disease states involving tissue hypoxia, e.g., peripheral claudication and exercise intolerance in diabetic humans, and angina, myocardial infarction and stroke in diabetic and normal humans.

    DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

    The present invention is seen more fully by the example below.

    EXAMPLE 1

    Effect of 3 -GPA on Exercise Performance in Normal Mice

    C57BL6J mice, 105-150 days of age, were obtained from Charles River Laboratories (Portage, Mich.). Mice were individually caged and maintained at 21.+-.1.degree. C. using a 12 h light cycle. They were allowed free access to tap water and powdered Purina 5015 mouse chew containing 20 mg/g .beta.-GPA, resulting in a daily intake of 4 g/kg body weight, or unsupplemented chow.

    Briefly, mice were placed on a standard rodent exercise wheel, 22 inches in circumference, in a pan with water to a depth of approximately 1/4 inch, so that it was necessary for them to run in order to remain above the water. When a mouse ceased running the wheel was tapered by the operator to stimulate further activity. The procedure was recorded on video tape to permit data analysis.

    The results of this study are presented in FIG. 1 and Table 1 below. 3-Guanidinopropionic acid increased exercise performance when administered to C57BL6J mice in the diet for one month. The total distance run, the running time, and the latency to exhaustion were increased by 3-guanidinopropionic acid.

    BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWING

    FIGURE Effect of 3-GPA on exercise performance in C57BL6J mice. Data are shown as means.+-.S.E.M. for revolutions of the exercise wheel. Data for each 5 min interval are expressed as moving averages calculated from t=0. N=5 mice/group. 3-GPA refers to mice administered chow supplemented with 20 mg/g 3-guanidinopropionic acid for 32 days. ##STR1##

    TABLE 1
    ______________________________ ________
    Effect of 3-guanidinopropionic acid on running performance in
    C57BL6J mice. Compound were mixed in the chow at 20 mg/g for
    one month or unsupplemented chow was provided.
    3-Guanidinopropionic
    P-
    CONTROL acid VALUE
    ______________________________ ________
    Running rat
    16 .+-. 1 26 .+-. 3 <0.05
    (0-45 min) (ft/min)
    Total distance run 719 .+-. 65 1175 .+-. 136 <0.05
    (0-70 min) (ft)
    Total distance run 719 .+-. 65 1839 .+-. 205 <0.05
    (0-70 min) (ft)
    Latency to 45 >70
    exhaustion (min)
    ______________________________ ________


    Running performance was measured in mice on an exercise wheel, 22 inches in circumference. The procedure was recorded on video tape in order to permit data analysis. Exhaustion was indicated by an abrupt decrease in running performance. In the case of 3-GPA treated mice exhaustion did not occur and the procedure was terminated by the technician after increased endurance was clearly demonstrated.






    Now if you would like to respond keep it to this topic. We can't any company bashing or questions about that. I shouldn't of started it in the first place so I apologize. Its not out business anyway so I ask you guys respectively to keep it clean. Thanks.
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  17. On a lighter note, I'm cutting up, but still want to gain some mass, is V-12 good for that or will it make my stomach look bloated?

  18. Yeah, to get the thread back to what was asked...

    I checked out v-12 a while back after RippedUp said he thought it was a really good product over on the bb.com boards...

    It is really good. I was looking into creatine titrate, because I hated the bloated look mono gave me. V-12, no bloat whatsoever, more vascularity, and seriously, the pumps are UNREAL.
    Everyone's different, but I could feel a Serious difference my first lift after starting it. Give it a try if you want good pumps and a bigger look without the bloat. I've recommended it to a couple of my serious lifting friends, they all couldn't stop thanking me.
    I've made good gains on it.

    peace

  19. thanks ky...gonna order it now ^_^

  20. I have started taking V-12, I got a question though.

    I train right after breakfast, which consists of 3/4 a cup oatmeal, and eggwhites... now should I take the V-12 Before breakfast? Would I still get a pump in my workout?


    or should I eat breakfast, and then before hitting the weights take the V-12?

    I lift about 45 minutes after brekfast FYI.

  21. Originally posted by Bobo


    Umm...I don't think so. Derek went off about people using glycocyamine without a methylating agent yet isomatrix doesn't have one. Syntrax representatives have been caugh over at bb.com posting under several names with the same IP badmouthing V-12 saying it didn't work at all. He calimed that V-12 didn't have a methylating agent but it has Betaine also known as Tri-Methylglycine.
    I am surprised you didnt even bother to double check before spreading misinformation. I have a container of isomatrix sitting right in front of me and it has trimethylglycine in its ingredients list just before glycocyamine.

    also its ok for sann to come out with a kncok off product of swole by adding couple more ingredients but its not ok for syntrax to counter that by adding a couple more of its own??

    P.S. I am not a representative of syntrax, just like I am sure you are not a representative of sann.

  22. Originally posted by he_hate_me


    I am surprised you didnt even bother to double check before spreading misinformation. I have a container of isomatrix sitting right in front of me and it has trimethylglycine in its ingredients list just before glycocyamine.

    also its ok for sann to come out with a kncok off product of swole by adding couple more ingredients but its not ok for syntrax to counter that by adding a couple more of its own??

    P.S. I am not a representative of syntrax, just like I am sure you are not a representative of sann.
    Well haven't posted in here for months but I guess someone still questions it. Thats fine.


    Try looking at a container from about a year ago. After that go ask Derek why he was thinking about taking it out permently.

    The original formula:

    Supplement Facts
    Berry Flavor
    Serving Size: 1 Level Scoop (~ 27g)
    Servings Per Container: ~ 34

    Amount Per Serving % DV*
    Total Calories 95
    Calories From Fat 0
    Total Fat 0 g 0%*
    &Nbsp; Saturated Fat 0 g 0%*
    Cholesterol <5 mg 1%*
    Total Carbohydrates 0 g 0%*
    Dietary Fiber 0 g 0%*
    Sugars 0 g †
    Protein 23 g 45%
    Calcium 190 mg 19%
    Phosphorus 225 mg 23%
    Magnesium 50 mg 13%
    Sodium 150 mg 6%
    Potassium 140 mg 4%

    * Percent Daily Values are based on a 2000 calorie diet.
    † Percent Daily Value not established.

    INGREDIENTS: ISOTEIN TM [Milk-derived proteins (ultrafiltered and undenatured Whey Protein Isolate, ultrafiltered and undenatured Milk Protein Isolate [including Micellar Casein)], Soy Protein Isolate, Egg Yolk Protein Isolate], Glycocyamine, citric acid, beet root powder, natural flavors, sodium citrate, lecithin, sodium chloride.



    SANN was accuses of being irresponsible for something Syntrax did in the first place. So you can take statement about me spreading misinformation and check yourself first. Also I said that the ingredients added were'nt anything spectatular. I dididn't say anything was wrong with it. Please think before you put words in my mouth and I suggest you re-read the WHOLE post first.


    Didi you ever think they REFORMULATED it? Hmm..a novel idea...Funny I tihnk I said Syntrax was reformulating a lot of their products..


    "Yes I know he's a good guy. All of sudden SAN if doing very well and Syntrax is reformulating and redoing their products. Wonder why. I don't really care anyway."

    There it was...
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  23. Bobo didn't say anything was wrong with it but I will. Syntrax can do whatever they want to try to catch up to SAN, but the funky-butt-mud taste of Swole will always make any sane person heave and/or quite possibly spew vomit (through their mouth AND nose, yes it's just that nasty) all over themselves and others in the immediate vicinity... which is also quite undesirable in a nutritional supplement type of product, unfortunately.
  

  
 

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