DHEA at 50mg and 100mg shown to be very effective
- 05-01-2006, 01:33 PM
Oral DHEA at 50mg and 100mg shown to be very effective
The effect of six months treatment with a 100 mg daily dose of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on circulating sex steroids, body composition and muscle strength in age-advanced men and women
A. J. Morales1, R. H Haubrich2, J. Y. Hwang2, H Asakura1 & S. S. C Yen1
The biological role of the adrenal sex steroid precursors - DHEA and DHEA sulphate (DS) and their decline with ageing remains undefined. We observed previously that administration of a 50 daily dose of DHEA for 3 months to age-advanced men and women resulted in an elevation (10%) of serum levels of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) accompanied by improvement of self-reported physical and psychological well-being. These findings led us to assess the effect of a larger dose (100 mg) of DHEA for a longer duration (6 months) on circulating sex steroids, body composition (DEXA) and muscle strength (MedX).
SUBJECTS AND DESIGN
Healthy non-obese age-advanced (50–65 yrs of age) men (n = 9) and women (n = 10) were randomized into a double-blind placebo-controlled cross-over trial. Sixteen subjects completed the one-year study of six months of placebo and six months of 100 mg oral DHEA daily.
Fasting early morning blood samples were obtained. Serum DHEA, DS, sex steroids, IGF-I, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-3, growth hormone binding protein (GHBP) levels and lipid profiles as well as body composition (by DEXA) and muscle strength (by MedX testing) were measured at baseline and after each treatment.
Basal serum levels of DHEA, DS, androsternedione (A), testosterone (T) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) were at or below the lower range of young adult levels. In both sexes, a 100 mg daily dose of DHEA restored serum DHEA levels to those of young adults and serum DS to levels at or slightly above the young adult range. Serum cortisol levels were unaltered, consequently the DS/cortisol ratio was increased to pubertal (10:1) levels. In women, but not in men, serum A, T and DHT were increased to levels above gender-specific young adult ranges. Basal SHBG levels were in the normal range for men and elevated in women, of whom 7 of 8 were on oestrogen replacement therapy. While on DHEA, serum SHBG levels declined with a greater (P < 0.02) response in women (−40 ± 8%; P = 0.002) than in men (−5 ± 4%; P = 0.02). Relative to baseline, DHEA administration resulted in an elevation of serum IGF-I levels in men (16 ±6%, P = 0.04) and in women (31 ±12%, P = 0.02). Serum levels of IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-3 were unaltered but GHBP levels declined in women (28 ±6%; P = 0.02) not in men. In men, but not in women, fat body mass decreased 1.0 ± 0.4 kg (6.1 ± 2.6%, P = 0.02) and knee muscle strength 15.0 ± 3.3% (P = 0.02) as well as lumbar back strength 13.9 ± 5.4% (p = 0.01) increased. In women, but not in men, an increase in total body mass of 1.4 ± 0.4 kg (2.1 ± 0.7%; P = 0.02) was noted. Neither gender had changes in basal metabolic rate, bone mineral density, urinary pyridinoline cross-links, fasting insulin, glucose, cortisol levels or lipid profiles. No significant adverse effects were observed.
A daily oral 100 mg dose of DHEA for 6 months resulted in elevation of circulating DHEA and DS concentrations and the DS/cortisol ratio. Biotransformation to potent androgens near and slightly above the range of their younger counterparts occurred in women with no detectable change in men. Given this hormonal milieu, an increase in serum IGF-I levels was observed in both genders but dimorphic responses were evident in fat body mass and muscle strength in favour of men. These differences in response to DHEA administration may reflect a gender specific response to DHEA and/or the presence of confounding factor(s) in women such as oestrogen replacement therapy.
Effects of DHEA replacement on bone mineral density and body composition in elderly women and men
Dennis T. Villareal, John O. Holloszy & Wendy M. Kohrt
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a precursor for both oestrogens and androgens. Its marked decline with ageing may influence age-related changes in tissues influenced by sex hormones. The aim of this study was to determine the effects of DHEA replacement on bone mineral density (BMD) and body composition in elderly women and men with low serum DHEA sulphate (DHEAS) levels.
Prospective 6 month trial of oral DHEA replacement, 50 mg/day.
Experimental subjects were 10 women and eight men, aged 73 ± 1 years. Control subjects were 10 women and eight men, aged 74 ± 1 years.
BMD, body composition, serum markers of bone turnover, serum lipids and lipoproteins, oral glucose tolerance, serum IGF-I, total serum oestrogens and testosterone.
BMD of the total body and lumbar spine increased (mean ± SEM; 1.6 ± 0.6% and 2.5 ± 0.8%, respectively; both P ≤ 0.05), fat mass decreased (− 1.3 ± 0.4 kg; P < 0.01) and fat-free mass increased (0.9 ± 0.4 kg; P ≤ 0.05) in response to DHEA replacement. DHEA replacement also resulted in increases in serum IGF-I (from 108 ± 8 to 143 ± 7 μg/l; P < 0.01) and total serum testosterone concentrations (from 10.7 ± 1.2 to 15.6 ± 1.8 nmol/l in the men and from 2.1 ± 0.2 to 4.5 ± 0.4 nmol/l in the women; both P ≤ 0.05).
The results provide preliminary evidence that DHEA replacement in those elderly women and men who have very low serum DHEAS levels can partially reverse age-related changes in fat mass, fat-free mass, and BMD, and raise the possibility that increases in IGF-I and/or testosterone play a role in mediating these effects of DHEA.
Last edited by LakeMountD; 05-01-2006 at 03:39 PM.
- 05-01-2006, 03:37 PM
Seems to me that 50mg is just as effective as 100mg. Damn cost efficient if you took this stuff for 6 months at 50mg and hell with a 50% increase in testosterone with the 50mg study, that is damn nice (accompanied by a ~40% increase in IGF-1 levels).
They even used oral administration, which is nice to know.
- 05-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Good stuff, Lake.
Maybe some senators will read these studies and become enlightened? Naaaaaaahhh!
05-01-2006, 04:35 PM
Awesome Lake, I'd rep you again except it says I have to rep other people first. I'm definintely hoping on this once I'm around 35 years old
05-01-2006, 04:41 PM
Haha just rep me later .. haha j/k but yeah it was a good find just for the fact they used orals and a lot of people were worried about absorbtion.
05-01-2006, 05:32 PM
So the average age of the men that were tested was 73?
Wonder how this relates to the average AAS user in PCT
05-01-2006, 06:34 PM
The first one was an average age of 60. But the interesting part was that it brought their levels back to pubertal levels, which is hella high. That means people in their 30's would benefit too.Originally Posted by JonesersRX7
I am curious if maybe a slightly higher dosage would be needed for us younger folks.
Mainly though I posted this for the AAS user in PCT.
05-02-2006, 09:25 AM
How long could you stay on low dose DHEA (50-200mg) without it being suppressive or having negative effects? I thought some people took it year round.
05-02-2006, 11:00 AM
Well it appears in this study that it isn't much of a problem. I will search some literature and see if there is anything on it suppressing natural levels but I doubt that is the problem considering they ran this experiment for 6 months and that is a hell of a long time.Originally Posted by dmilhouse
05-02-2006, 01:58 PM
The driving down of SHBG levels is fantastic news...both for AAS users and for those of us with wives who have been on oral birth control for many years. Regulation of SHBG and cortisol after a cycle would explain some of the many benefits of DHEA use during PCT. Great stuff.
05-02-2006, 02:12 PM
Exactly man, it was a great study!! I am attempting to search for more.Originally Posted by bioman
I got repped by two people and my rep didn't move, wierd! I don't understand this whole rep thing anyways!
05-02-2006, 02:17 PM
And to clarify... oral admin is just fine right, no need to go dermal?
Pills are alot easier. Is the powder tolerable as far as tastes goes?
05-02-2006, 02:19 PM
Well that is the interesting part is that these studies used oral administration. It was thought by many that oral administration in lower dosages wouldn't produce very good effects because of liver degradation. That is why I like these studies. Shows that 50 and 100mg can be effective. Seems we might need more like 100 though since our levels are naturall higher than the average age of like 58 in these studies. Nonetheless orals are pretty cheap.Originally Posted by JonesersRX7
05-02-2006, 06:41 PM
I thought the data was pretty compelling that transdermal application was much more bioavailable.
But, I agree with Lake, we people need to up the dose. Using a transdermal would effectively do that at a similar dose (as used in the study) it would seem.
05-02-2006, 08:18 PM
My first post here but had to here,
freaky that this thread just started as I just started upping my DHEA to 50mg. from 25mg. as I really haven't noticed much benefits(at least from 25mg.)
05-03-2006, 08:47 AM
Just goes to show you that Dr. D knows his SHIATE.
05-03-2006, 08:56 AM
I've been using DHEA for about 3 mos. and have notice and increase in my sex drive and the overall muscle hardness,I'm a man in his late 40's so I give it a thumbs up!
05-03-2006, 09:19 AM
So, DHEA administration can restore hormone levels back to what they were at puberty... not so much above that level correct?Originally Posted by LakeMountD
There should be a chart somewhere that shows the decline of natty DHEA levels in ageing men. Using such a chart then could basicly give you an idea as to the level of bennifit that DHEA supplementation could provide?...
Basicly, could I assum, that taking 50mg DHEA now, would produce less of a percentage increase as it would 10 years from now?
Im just curious- I have (for really no particular reason) been taking 25mg of DHEA post workout for the past few nights. I have noticed its effects (in that I feel my test levels are higher: Oily skin, more horney...).
I am just curious if at some point (a higher dosage) that I would begin to convert more of this DHEA to estrogen, as opposed to the good stuff? (I do realize the hormonal ballance, in that an increase of estrogen can be accompanied by increasing test).
Sorry to be so long, just giving you my thought process here untill I get to my real question:
Im not sure wether I should be conserned that my natty DHEA levels are lower then they should be (due to the effects of amount Im taking now), or
if my body is thinking that this extra DHEA should just be converted to estrogen, and that little xtra bit of estrogen is raising my test t okeep the ratio balanced.
Anyone want to guess?
Oh- LMD,.. Id give you reps, but apparently I STILL havent spred the love enough to do so.
Oh- you can be rep'd by poeple and not have your points moved because the more rep power a person has, the more rep points that persons reps are worth. The opposit also true
05-03-2006, 10:36 AM
So I do not need to be worried about supressed liver cortisol levels while adminning' 50mg DHEA during my PCT?
Reason being, is what if I plan on using Retain for my PCT (or Lean Extreme OR Reduce XT - gotta cover all the board sponsors unno), I really do not want to damage myself. I was under the assumption that suppressed cortisol levels were somewhat dangerous over long periods of time? Does this study prove otherwise, especially if old men can take it?
05-03-2006, 11:16 AM
Trust me bro, in PCT you REALLY want lowered cortisol levels. During androgen cycles cortisol levels peak extremely high, attempting to bring the body back to homestasis, when you come off of the androgens, the cortisol levels are still high but now the ratio is in cortisols favor and can begin to break you down quite fast with little resistance.Originally Posted by Grassroots082
LX is a great idea as is DHEA.
05-03-2006, 11:21 AM
Grass - you can run into joint issues if you lower cortisol too much. But, a period of 3 to 4 weeks shouldn't do much harm.
05-03-2006, 11:38 AM
Yet another product added to Canada's list of controlled substances!
05-03-2006, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the study, I was thinking about starting this on a regular basis and when I started looking around I got even more confused, especially with the big Dr D vs BigCat DHEA debate. I guess this study puts an end to that "discussion". Anyway I'm planning a Mtrn cycle this summer and I think I'll taper down during PCT and just stay on 50mg for a few months and see how it goes. Being that I'll be 41 in July I may benefit!
05-03-2006, 12:23 PM
I use dhea year round, I love it.
I bought a kilo of it last year.
05-03-2006, 12:36 PM
Yeah, lowering cortisol is definitely something you want to do..as naturally as possible, of course..during PCT. Low test levels spike cortisol.
The even bigger issue in my mind is it's ability to drive SHBG down..this is just super cool. After a long cycle, SHGB levels are very high to match the on cycle hormonal environment. Post cycle your hormone levels plummet but SHGB has a tendency to stick around for a while and this makes recovery harder since any test you begin to produce gets bound up by SHBG. Despite what BC thinks, getting SHBG down to a more reasonable level with something like DHEA or possible Activate is going to help you retain your gains.
Will it cause suppression? There does not seem to be any evidence of this. As long as one does not lower SHBG to extreme lows and elevate test to above normal levels, I think you'll be OK.
As far as any sort of negative feedback loop with DHEA, that seems to need further research. Anecdotally, there does not seem to be a problem because if your natty DHEA stopped producing for any significant length of time, you WOULD know it, believe me. My wife had low levels and she was in a world of hurt until we figured this out. When I have tapered down from 200 mgs during pct, it has always been pretty seemless and uneventful..so I don't think the adrenals take as long to resume full function as the testes..if suppression is happening at all.
05-03-2006, 01:07 PM
Bioman, what kind of taper do you normally do? 200/150/100/50? Since my mtrn cycle will most likely be 2 or 3wks max this is what I had in mind with a 3 wk PCT, the 50mg being after pct and just staying on it for 3 months or so.
05-03-2006, 01:31 PM
Is there truly a need to taper DHEA?
Originally Posted by Basso
05-03-2006, 01:36 PM
This just makes me wonder what the upper limit of effectiveness of dosing is.
100mgs transdermal is way different that oral.
It would interesting to see if the IGF-1 increase has a corresponding increase with larger dosages.
05-03-2006, 01:45 PM
PastorofMuppets, those are some sweet Bass in your Avi! I need to rep you for sharing that catch with us.
05-03-2006, 01:45 PM
No worries bro, I've been ordering it from a board sponsor here and have never had a problem getting itOriginally Posted by flytrapcan
05-03-2006, 01:54 PM
05-03-2006, 03:16 PM
I think Dr D recommends halving the dose every week. Whether or not there is a need to taper...hmm, dunno. Couldn't hurt I suppose. I would rather err on the side of caution.
05-03-2006, 03:46 PM
Yeh I just looked it up, he has 200mg for 3wks and 100 for 3wks, so maybe I'll do 200 for 1-2 wks then go to 100 for remainder of PCT and go to 50 when done.Originally Posted by bioman
05-03-2006, 04:31 PM
05-03-2006, 04:37 PM
I agree Rogue. Dr D pretty much squashed any E conversion fears I may have had in another thread. Definitely want to do a DHEA/7-oxo dermal some time.
I've used Relora and it is good stuff. Nice for relaxing in the evening. Definitely boosts DHEA because it gives me a little acne.
05-03-2006, 05:50 PM
I think using DHEA in PCT is different than using it say just as a supplement to boost DHEA levels in general.
All the supplements I see(or most) are 25mg. in strength so I had some hesitation in upping my dose.Dr.D sort of expanded my view of the dosage issue.Someone stated they definitely feel 25mg. I don't seem to feel anything from that dose yet I thought I was rather a lightwt. when it came to noticing effects on my body. "...accoompanied by improvement of self-reported physical and psychological well-being." says the report,so upping to 50mg. says I.
You'd have to take 400mg. of pure test powder(orally) to get a therapeutic blood level(10mg.) it stands to reason that DHEA being so closly related to test doesn't the liver just obliterate the poor DHEA?Aka the reason most hormones have to be methylated to be orally active(as all you know better than me I'm sure). MDHEA or MethylDHEA is there such a thing,hmmmm.
Of course the transdermal route would take care of this issue.
Have a nice day.
02-13-2007, 06:21 PM
good info here, bump for more thoughts. can any rec. a good brand of dhea
02-13-2007, 06:26 PM
HOLY old thread! I wrote this on May 1st lol. That was back when I had time to research more .
02-13-2007, 06:36 PM
can u recomend a good brand and the thread might be old but its a goody
02-13-2007, 07:48 PM
I like the bulk DHEA that CNW carries.
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