Non steroidal gyno

[brm]

Hello guys.

I'm from the gynecomastia.org site. But I read many posts here from very knowledgeable ones as Bobo or Dr D. Allow me to submit my history as I believe some of you could be so kind as to give me a very valuable help.
My gyno is non steroidal or, more exactly, I did not get it from any cycle since I have always relied upon simple protein and aminoacid supplementation when working out (my ambitions are modest since my natural ability to build up and retain muscle is anyway quite poor). I developped gyno after 5 months on an antihairloss drug named Avodart (initially designed for BPH) and possibly from domperidone + antiacids which I had been taking for 2 years. This was 6 months ago. I then quit Avodart to resume the former one (finasteride, on which i had never had any problem), quit antiacids (Proton pump inhibitors) and cut domperidone by half. Under medical supervision and with appropriate bloodtests, I engaged in a 2 month arimidex+andractim therapy. This combo eliminated the soreness but didn't reduce the gland significantly. I then decided to wait and see whether the change of medication could solve things out. Nor did it. Plus I have the feeling that things might be worsening as I take topical spironolactone now.
I must say that my prolactin was borderline up all the time but is now back to a normal level. My estradiol was very moderate during the growth of the gland (17pg/ml with top lab figure=55), and low as well after 2 months of arimidex (17pg/ml) and is now a little higher 2 months after stopping arimidex (20pg/ml).
My question is: what should I do? Since my estradiol is low, contenders on gynecomastia.org say that my case has been induced by low DHT and that neither AI nor SERMS are of any avail. But as I take it from Bobo, gyno always results from excess estrogenes in the chest area. Can nolva, or anything else you might think of, be of any help in my case?
I have a box of generic nolva close at hand. Should I go in with that?...

Thank you very very much as I had the feeling I was talking myself into circles on gyn.org in spite of all the useful knowledge I've been able to grasp there and still am.

 

[Matthew D]

you might need to search on here because this has been covered a more than a few times

 

[doggzj]

brm, you seem to know a bit about this subject, so I'm going to assume you have real gyno (even though half the guys around here are just panicing over nothing )

First off, is it from puberty? And how long have you had it?

Most likely, the only way to get rid of it is going under the knife. Using ATD at 75mg for 3 weeks reduced the mass size of my gyno about 25%, but beyond that I have not had any success removing it. If the tissue has formed and been there for over a year, you will need to find a skilled surgeon.

If you do try the ATD, be ready for your libido to be destroyed and for your joints to be dust. At 75mg your estrogen levels will be almost non existant.

 

[brm]

hi matthew D. I believe that all posts related to gyno on this site, for interesting they are, deal with a specific type of gyno which is not mine. My gyno is not due to a shutdown of my natural testosterone production but to a drastic cut of its DHT metabolite even if bloodtests revealed a low free testosterone. So, I believe my question is a bit particular.

Hi Doogzj. Thank you for replying. My gyno is 6 months old and is not from puberty. It is a moderate case: puffy and enlarged nipples with gland stretching slightly either side of them. My BF is very low. So it is gland. Do you think that I could improve my situation with milder therapies than ATD (whose meaning the search engine has not been able to give me - sorry for this if I may be an ignorant). Only 6 months old. Could nolva do the trick? or ralox or anything? Can a SERM succeed where an AI (arimidex) and andractim failed?
Thank you.

 

[Matthew D]

Personally, as many problems you have had. I would work with your doctor and not be asking advice on here.
I do think that Nolvadex would help but to what extent, I don't know.

 

[jmh80]

ATD = androstanetrienedione (I'm forgetting the bond numbers off the top of my head).
It is the active in ReboundXT (and a few other off-shoot brands).

 

[ripped218]

ATD = androstanetrienedione (I'm forgetting the bond numbers off the top of my head).
It is the active in ReboundXT (and a few other off-shoot brands).

1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione

 

[brm]

All right.
I became very distrustful with docs. I've seen so many of them. BTW, they were not even able to warn me against gyno as they prescribed proscar or avodart... And the last one I saw did not know what the difference was between an AI and a SERM. I guess I don't see the right docs but at that...
So, let's assume I give a try to nolva. Two questions that you may answer, buddies:
1) To what extent is hairloss to be feared as I am obviously subject to it but bearing in mind either that I am on 5ar inhibitors all the way long?
2) Accordingly, should I opt for the massive attack treatment (tapering down from some 80mg daily to 20 mg over a 8 week period) or the mild one (20mg daily for 4 weeks then a 4week stop then another 4 week on 20mg daily) or any other scheme that you might believe valid in my specific case as a hairshedder that wants to try and get rid of his gyno?

Thank you very much again.:nutkick:

 

[brm]

Anyone?:blink:

 

[Socrates44]

I have a case of non-steroidal induced gynecomastia. Mine was induced during puberty. From my understanding about 40% men go through this phase, however about 35% grow out of it. The reason you have this is not necesarially "an increase of estrogen in the thoracic cavity", but more so an increased estradiol sensitivy. Some people have a higher than normal up-regulation of estradiol receptors and this can lead to hyperplasia of the mammary tissue.

I used to power lift (ages 16-18) and with powerlifting comes an immense release of stem cells from the major muscle groups (back and legs). Stem cells are literally a blank check, and when one is lifting for power, the stem cells recruit testosterone to aid them in lean mass production. This calling for more test production, during your puberty phase causes your body to produce too much test which is then aromatized to estrogen.
so you are essentially getting it from two sources
1.)-converted test to estrogen
2.)-estradiol production from the hydrolysis of test.


I have chosen to exise the tissue. My coritsol levels are high and so is my estrogen. Hormone therapy could also be used.

Also, by inhibiting DHT (Dihyrdotestosterone) you are stopping that from binding to your chemo-receptors. DHT has about a 20 times greater affinity for the receptor site than testosterone, so you would be leaving the receptor open. This next part is not for sure, but my educated guess would be, by inhibiting DHT attraction you are leaving the binding site open to either testosterone or estradiol.
In that case, the estradiol will win out more times than not, leading to gyno and other problems. Might be in your interest to shave your head and get off the pills.

 

[brm]

Thank you for this answer Socrates44. So you don't seem to advise the use of tamox in my case though tamox should be able to close the open receptors to estrogen and leave them open to testosterone only?...

 

[Socrates44]

No, tamoxifen is a good estrogen blocker. I was refering to the anti-hairloss drug. I am not a fan of pills to begin with. Just make sure you know all the sides of tamoxifen before you start taking it. If i recall from path class it can cause erythrocytric hyperplasia (which is an increase in RBC's). While that may not sounds too bad, too many RBC's can cause clots and blockages.

How i figured my case was, my hormones were out of whack, thats why I got the "b!tch t!ts" So the last thing i wanna do is use pro-test or estrogen blockers. Im not screwing with my endorcrine system, because it can bite back.

Thats why im getting it cut out. lol