[skull]

doea anyone know of safty issues with cissus?Cissus quadrangularis, a member of the Vitidaceae family and regarded as a medicinal plant in African countries is suspected of causing significant loss of livestock in the Sudan. Twelve Nubian goats 3 to 6 months old were given by stomach tube dried stems of C. quadrangularis finely ground in a water suspension at 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg body weight daily until death or slaughter. Nine Desert sheep 6 to 9 months old were given that suspension at 0, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg daily. Signs of poisoning included decreased appetite, staggering, dyspnoea, diarrhoea and loss of condition. Pathological changes included haemorrhaging in kidney, lung, heart and intestine, focal catarrhal enteritis and atrophy of cardiac fat, hydroperitoneum and hydropericardium.

[Nullifidian]

Originally Posted by skull

doea anyone know of safty issues with cissus?Cissus quadrangularis, a member of the Vitidaceae family and regarded as a medicinal plant in African countries is suspected of causing significant loss of livestock in the Sudan. Twelve Nubian goats 3 to 6 months old were given by stomach tube dried stems of C. quadrangularis finely ground in a water suspension at 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg body weight daily until death or slaughter. Nine Desert sheep 6 to 9 months old were given that suspension at 0, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg daily. Signs of poisoning included decreased appetite, staggering, dyspnoea, diarrhoea and loss of condition. Pathological changes included haemorrhaging in kidney, lung, heart and intestine, focal catarrhal enteritis and atrophy of cardiac fat, hydroperitoneum and hydropericardium.

Look at those dosages.

The LOWEST dose was huge. A 180 pound man would have to take 20g of Cissus per day to match the LOWEST dose in that animal study.

Additionally, that's the only thing these animals were fed.

[natiels]

Originally Posted by Nullifidian

Look at those dosages.

The LOWEST dose was huge. A 180 pound man would have to take 20g of Cissus per day to match the LOWEST dose in that animal study.

Additionally, that's the only thing these animals were fed.

Yeah, but it said they were given ground up dried stems. An extract is probably far more potent then eating a dried stem. Who knows though, it is possible something else in the plant was causing issues.

If it was toxic in humans I think we might know since it has been used in India for a long long time. Also there are lots of ppl on this forum who have used it for months at a time with no signs of toxicity.

[anabolicrhino]

Originally Posted by natiels

Yeah, but it said they were given ground up dried stems. An extract is probably far more potent then eating a dried stem. Who knows though, it is possible something else in the plant was causing issues.

If it was toxic in humans I think we might know since it has been used in India for a long long time. Also there are lots of ppl on this forum who have used it for months at a time with no signs of toxicity.

I am using about 1-2 grams a day. I will continue until death or slaughter...(The log you were waiting for!)

This could be the result of stress toxins released by a nervous animal. It may seem a bit anthropomorfic, but stomach tubes, forced diets and the loom of death can cause stress related issues with most mammals

[skull]

the part where it says atrophy of cardiac fat -is that nessesarly a bad thing?[removes fat around your heart?]

[Poobah]

Hmmmm..

Probably completely non-related... but I've been using it for well over 6 months now.. and since christmas, I've been suffering from constant egg burps, acid reflux, diahrea, and general stomach discomfort.

I've had ultra sounds.. and nothing appears to be wrong... and I'm now on nexium to reduce stomach acid.. and I generally feel alot better.. but I still have bouts of those evil burbs.

I really doubt it's cissus though.... But thought I'd mention it, just in case other people are having similar issues.. So if you do let me know.

peace.

[cable626]

sort of related:
I saw a study that was posted on cissus that showed that cissus helps improve the stomach lining, protecting your stomach from ulcers.

[bioman]

There may also be toxins in the whole plant or whole stem of the plant that are excluded in the extraction process. Many whole herbs have toxins that must be removed or excluded and this is the other main reason for extracts. Not only does one have to take less herb because the desired actives are isolated, but you also excluded undesirable compounds as well. USP may be able to shed more light on this without divulging their extraction secrets.

Also, herbivores are prone to toxic effects if fed one and only one plant food source for long periods of time. It's basically malnutrition aggrevated by low grade toxins in the plants.

[Reggin]

Also the makeup of each species, while having similar organ systems, has been known to show wildly different effects (i.e. how dogs will die if they eat chocolate).

Basically, this may be just an isolated incident with goats, and may exert no negative effects on humans at all.

[bioman]

Red onions and raisins are also toxic to dogs. Weird. Squirrels can eat deathcap mushrooms with no ill effects..it would kill humans within 8 hours.

[NiteHawk]

I personally love Cissus. My elbows thank me everyday for it. I dont train without it.

[IONOI2007]

Skull, I had read that same report a few days ago and became concerned. Not to mention the fact that I had started taking Cissus two weeks ago and was on a fact finding mission. I could not find one negative post about Cissus until I came to that livestock report. Everything else was positive. I think I was more worried about liver damage from long term usage. It states that Cissus may improve and protect liver functions, alleviate ulcers, etc. Finally, I did a search on Cissus danger and came up on this thread...should have known you guys were already all over it at least a year ago. Anyway, I have been on it for two weeks and nothing negative to report only that I felt a slight twinge in my stomach on the left side. I think that I was taking too much Cissus at once. I have seen a recommendation of 2 grams in the morning and I was trying to scarf down 2.5 grams maybe 2.6. I am attempting to heal a tendon related injury in chest.
I will let you know if anything changes.

[cvtsboss]

Originally Posted by Poobah

Hmmmm..

Probably completely non-related... but I've been using it for well over 6 months now.. and since christmas, I've been suffering from constant egg burps, acid reflux, diahrea, and general stomach discomfort.

I've had ultra sounds.. and nothing appears to be wrong... and I'm now on nexium to reduce stomach acid.. and I generally feel alot better.. but I still have bouts of those evil burbs.

I really doubt it's cissus though.... But thought I'd mention it, just in case other people are having similar issues.. So if you do let me know.

peace.

Have you recently changed your Creatine or arginine intake? I have had the exact same symptoms, but I have never taken cissus, however I have been taking higher amounts of protein, creatine and arginine.

[justreading]

lets get the science guys like usp over here! I take down 4-5g super cissus or 10-12g regular a day so I am very interested.

[djbombsquad]

Id be very carefully. Endless the published studies show the safety for it. I would not use it. I am using it in my log for incarnate but that is in low dosage form.

[djbombsquad]

Did you want to take it for your joints etc?

[xjsynx]

Originally Posted by Poobah

Hmmmm..

Probably completely non-related... but I've been using it for well over 6 months now.. and since christmas, I've been suffering from constant egg burps, acid reflux, diahrea, and general stomach discomfort.

I've had ultra sounds.. and nothing appears to be wrong... and I'm now on nexium to reduce stomach acid.. and I generally feel alot better.. but I still have bouts of those evil burbs.

I really doubt it's cissus though.... But thought I'd mention it, just in case other people are having similar issues.. So if you do let me know.

peace.

You will want to test your acid levels, and look into supplementing hydrochloric acid.

[bioman]

There's a big difference between supplementing with a few grams of an herb and feeding nothing but that herb for months on end to an herbivore. Herbivores graze on many species of plant per day for a reason...to avoid toxic reactions and nutrient deficiencies. Obvious exceptions would be hay and alfalfa but even then, farmers provide alternative forage like silage, corn or oats.

Try to eat only one food item for several months and see how you fare.