is cissus dangerous?
- 04-19-2006, 06:01 AM
is cissus dangerous?
doea anyone know of safty issues with cissus?Cissus quadrangularis, a member of the Vitidaceae family and regarded as a medicinal plant in African countries is suspected of causing significant loss of livestock in the Sudan. Twelve Nubian goats 3 to 6 months old were given by stomach tube dried stems of C. quadrangularis finely ground in a water suspension at 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg body weight daily until death or slaughter. Nine Desert sheep 6 to 9 months old were given that suspension at 0, 1, 5 or 10 g/kg daily. Signs of poisoning included decreased appetite, staggering, dyspnoea, diarrhoea and loss of condition. Pathological changes included haemorrhaging in kidney, lung, heart and intestine, focal catarrhal enteritis and atrophy of cardiac fat, hydroperitoneum and hydropericardium.
- 04-19-2006, 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by skull
The LOWEST dose was huge. A 180 pound man would have to take 20g of Cissus per day to match the LOWEST dose in that animal study.
Additionally, that's the only thing these animals were fed.
- 04-19-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Nullifidian
If it was toxic in humans I think we might know since it has been used in India for a long long time. Also there are lots of ppl on this forum who have used it for months at a time with no signs of toxicity.
04-19-2006, 09:47 AM
I am using about 1-2 grams a day. I will continue until death or slaughter...(The log you were waiting for!)Originally Posted by natiels
This could be the result of stress toxins released by a nervous animal. It may seem a bit anthropomorfic, but stomach tubes, forced diets and the loom of death can cause stress related issues with most mammals
04-19-2006, 11:34 AM
the part where it says atrophy of cardiac fat -is that nessesarly a bad thing?[removes fat around your heart?]
04-19-2006, 11:42 AM
Probably completely non-related... but I've been using it for well over 6 months now.. and since christmas, I've been suffering from constant egg burps, acid reflux, diahrea, and general stomach discomfort.
I've had ultra sounds.. and nothing appears to be wrong... and I'm now on nexium to reduce stomach acid.. and I generally feel alot better.. but I still have bouts of those evil burbs.
I really doubt it's cissus though.... But thought I'd mention it, just in case other people are having similar issues.. So if you do let me know.
04-19-2006, 11:53 AM
sort of related:
I saw a study that was posted on cissus that showed that cissus helps improve the stomach lining, protecting your stomach from ulcers.
04-19-2006, 12:34 PM
There may also be toxins in the whole plant or whole stem of the plant that are excluded in the extraction process. Many whole herbs have toxins that must be removed or excluded and this is the other main reason for extracts. Not only does one have to take less herb because the desired actives are isolated, but you also excluded undesirable compounds as well. USP may be able to shed more light on this without divulging their extraction secrets.
Also, herbivores are prone to toxic effects if fed one and only one plant food source for long periods of time. It's basically malnutrition aggrevated by low grade toxins in the plants.
04-19-2006, 12:44 PM
Also the makeup of each species, while having similar organ systems, has been known to show wildly different effects (i.e. how dogs will die if they eat chocolate).
Basically, this may be just an isolated incident with goats, and may exert no negative effects on humans at all.
04-19-2006, 02:59 PM
Red onions and raisins are also toxic to dogs. Weird. Squirrels can eat deathcap mushrooms with no ill effects..it would kill humans within 8 hours.
04-19-2006, 04:54 PM
I personally love Cissus. My elbows thank me everyday for it. I dont train without it.
08-26-2007, 07:40 PM
Skull awesome post!
Skull, I had read that same report a few days ago and became concerned. Not to mention the fact that I had started taking Cissus two weeks ago and was on a fact finding mission. I could not find one negative post about Cissus until I came to that livestock report. Everything else was positive. I think I was more worried about liver damage from long term usage. It states that Cissus may improve and protect liver functions, alleviate ulcers, etc. Finally, I did a search on Cissus danger and came up on this thread...should have known you guys were already all over it at least a year ago. Anyway, I have been on it for two weeks and nothing negative to report only that I felt a slight twinge in my stomach on the left side. I think that I was taking too much Cissus at once. I have seen a recommendation of 2 grams in the morning and I was trying to scarf down 2.5 grams maybe 2.6. I am attempting to heal a tendon related injury in chest.
I will let you know if anything changes.
08-26-2007, 10:57 PM
08-26-2007, 11:58 PM
lets get the science guys like usp over here! I take down 4-5g super cissus or 10-12g regular a day so I am very interested.
08-27-2007, 01:53 AM
Id be very carefully. Endless the published studies show the safety for it. I would not use it. I am using it in my log for incarnate but that is in low dosage form.
08-27-2007, 02:14 AM
Did you want to take it for your joints etc?
08-27-2007, 09:49 AM
08-27-2007, 10:09 AM
There's a big difference between supplementing with a few grams of an herb and feeding nothing but that herb for months on end to an herbivore. Herbivores graze on many species of plant per day for a reason...to avoid toxic reactions and nutrient deficiencies. Obvious exceptions would be hay and alfalfa but even then, farmers provide alternative forage like silage, corn or oats.
Try to eat only one food item for several months and see how you fare.
08-27-2007, 12:57 PM
I think you might want to supplement your diet with Hyaluronic acid rather than hydrochloric acid...but that's just me. So then we don't have an authoratative opinion on the subject yet. I know I have read posts from the past from USP and basically said the same thing that it is safe even at mega dose levels. I just don't want to ruin my liver. My kidneys I can do without (j/k).
08-27-2007, 01:21 PM
Cissus makes it possible for me to lift heavy without feeling like I broke my arms or legs or back. Anything can kill you if you take too much of it. Water will do it if you drink too much. 3 Super Cissus RX a day won't do it.
08-27-2007, 01:55 PM
"By Charles Poliquin
Hydrochloric acid presents a few dilemmas for those of us seeking better supplements on a daily basis.
On one hand, it must be handled with appropriate safety precautions because it is a highly corrosive liquid. It is used in various industrial applications including leather manufacturing and PVC plastic production, as well as the removal of rust from iron and steel.1
Of course another great use for hydrochloric acid, or HCl, is to help us digest our food. Our bodies are protected from this corrosive acid by a mucosal barrier in our GI tracts. Many times when people think they have too much acid, they actually have too little barrier and not enough acid. Yes, this acid is a good thing.
Acid is one of the main things that help us to break down those big forkfuls of food into useable nutrients. Despite the popularity of acid-neutralizing and acid-blocking drugs, stomach acid is crucial not only to health, but also to achieving optimal function. When you block acid, you limit nutrient absorption and create an environment that is actually favorable to disease. Even if you donít use these drugs, studies dating back over 70 years show that our ability to secrete acid decreases as we age.2-4
Having appropriate acid levels is step one. Before you start analyzing your percentage of fat, carbohydrates and protein intake, make sure your acid level is good. Before you start buying expensive supplements, make sure your acid level is good. Before you start analyzing your sets, reps, tempo and frequency, make sure your acid level is good. If you canít break down your muscle-building nutrients, youíre putting in a lot of money and hard work and not getting the most from them. Again, it is step one.
Testing acid levels
Fortunately, this is easy to test and easy to fix. Very rarely can one put in so little effort for so much return. In order to test, I like to use a method recommended by Drs. Michael Murray and Joe Pizzorno, NDs.
In the middle of your next solid meal, take one capsule of Digestzyme (200 mg HCL.) Continue to increase the dose by one capsule at each subsequent meal until you can feel warmth in your stomach. DO NOT EXCEED SEVEN CAPSULES.
Once youíve determined the dose that produces a warm sensation, you now know that similar sized meals require one less tablet than that dose. You have now determined how much acid your body should be producing on its own, but isnít. (i.e. the dose that you take with every meal.) Smaller meals might require less and larger meals might require more.5 You should immediately notice changes like a decrease in bloating, belching, and less indigestion.
This one little change to your program can have an incredible impact. Protein that never made it to your muscles is suddenly getting broken down for use. Carbohydrates that could have given you energy are now being digested and utilized. Healthy fats that were needed to improve the integrity of your cellular membranes finally have a chance. Expensive supplements that used to just ďpassĒ on by, now get dissolved and released into your system.
Beyond that, acid in your stomach can protect you from bacteria, specifically helicobacter pylori, known to be one of the leading causes of ulcers. There are other things to consider, like enzymes, but the first step is having enough acid. It may sound too simple, but it really can make a huge difference.
Findings from the field
Since writing the article Maximize Your Progress with Hydrochloric Acid, and after giving multiple Biosignature seminars, we have found that an alarming group of people are basically generating very little stomach acid for themselves.
Dr. Bob Ratkowski estimates that 98% of the American population is deficient in HCL because of increased stress levels. I would concur with him on that one, as we have found similar results with our PPC s clientele. Colleagues of mine have found similar results in elite athletes in soccer and rugby. Even young athletes, such as a top college American football player I am training, are turning out to be completely HCL deficient."
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