liposolv bad for kidneys
- 02-26-2006, 06:16 PM
liposolv bad for kidneys
I had to stop useing after 2weeks due to strange pain in kidney area /PA is not going to like me very much.
Let this also be a warning to the forslean crowd.
"Google" Search Garners New Discovery in Polycystic Kidney Disease
(KU School of Medicine, 2006)
KANSAS CITY, Kan. – An internationally renowned researcher in the study of polycystic kidney disease (PKD) is presenting some groundbreaking findings this week at the American Society of Nephrology Meeting in
Philadelphia (Nov. 10-12th).
Jared Grantham, MD, University Distinguished Professor at the University of Kansas Medical Center (KUMC), Trey Putnam, PhD, Midwest Research Institute (MRI), and a team of collaborators have identified a bizarre substance in the massively enlarged kidneys of patients with polycystic kidney disease. The researchers have known for years that the kidneys accumulated a highly potent fatty-like substance with the capacity to stimulate growth. Enlarged polycystic kidneys eventually lead to end-stage renal disease.
Grantham and his team have been attempting to identify the fatty-like chemical in the cysts for more than 12 years. With grant support from the KUMC/MRI Collaborative Research Awards program, they finally assigned a molecular weight to the lipid and created a molecular formula, C22H3407. But they still didn’t know what it was.
So just for fun, Grantham plugged the formula into a Google search on his computer.
"Voila! Up popped a picture of a plant, Coleus forskolii," Grantham said. "We learned that the chemical in the enlarged cysts of PKD patients is forskolin – the same as the chemically-active ingredient in the roots of this herb grown in India."
Forskolin is now a popular health food supplement used to treat thyroid conditions, lower cholesterol and reduce blood pressure.
"It was a surprising discovery," Grantham added. But how did it get into these patients? They weren’t taking any of the commercial preparations containing forskolin. We’re almost certain that the cells in the cysts make the forskolin in much the same way that the chemical substance is made in the plant.
"This is a remarkable discovery for several reasons," Grantham said. "We have discovered a substance that is a potential wrecker of polycystic kidneys, contributing to the uncontrollable growth of multiple cysts within human kidneys. This new knowledge will help us better understand the process of cyst growth and hopefully lead to treatments, therapies and preventions."
"We also learned that patients with PKD should not take any supplement or product that contains forskolin because it may aggravate their condition."
"And, it took this special disease, PKD, and a Google search to discover this substance that is created in both plants and the human body, which is the case for a few other chemical substances."
"This is what we mean by 'discovery research.' It's discovering something entirely new. It's like being an explorer and discovering a whole new mountain range."
PKD is the most common of all life-threatening genetic diseases, affecting 600,000 Americans and an estimated 12.5 million people worldwide. It is more common than cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, and sickle cell anemia combined. There is no known cure or treatment for PKD.
Grantham is a pioneer in the PKD research movement, which began on the KUMC campus in the late 1970s and now involves hundreds of scientists worldwide. He is the former director of the Kidney Institute and founder of the PKD Foundation, which annually provides nearly $3 million in research funding throughout the United States. In 2003, Grantham received the Lillian Jean Kaplan International Prize for Advancement in the Understanding of Polycystic Kidney Disease.
Furthermore, the unfortunate combination of ephedrine as a deep penetrant inducer and theophylline may act synergistially as poteniators for this problem (perhaps as they do with phenobarbitol).
I hope I am wrong, I've spent a little time working with nephrologists and know a bit about polycystic kidney disease.
Twas Scull's report of kidney pain that perked my ears up...
This suggests that he is either hypersensitive to this product - or that he has an as yet undiagonosed PKD condition.
Western Hyperboreal Technical Oracle
- 02-26-2006, 08:34 PM
Yup, I had the same pain when I applied it to my lovehandles. Freaked me out.
- 02-27-2006, 08:54 PM
This is like a bad dream, now your posting this here? Why?
02-27-2006, 10:50 PM
02-27-2006, 11:14 PM
At first I thought my low carb diet was causing the kidney pain, but it was when I put lipsolv on the lovehandle near my kidney I felt the pain. I think if you keep this stuff on just the front abs or chest youll be fine, I was.
02-27-2006, 11:27 PM
This certainly raises some concerns on my part. I can't tell if the renal cysts that are producing the forselean are responsible for furthering the condition or if it's a harmless, but really weird by-product of the disease.
We definitely need to discuss this further whatever the case may be.
I have had no renal or other issues when using foreselean and would like to continue using it as it is a significant part of my anti-depression stack. I am going to hold off on capping my new batch until a little more clarity comes our way though. PKD is not a pleasant way to die.
02-28-2006, 12:44 AM
Very scary issue here. I'm definately gonig to lay off this stuff until I research this more.Originally Posted by bioman
02-28-2006, 06:16 AM
cAMP Regulates Cell Proliferation and Cyst Formation in Autosomal Polycystic Kidney D
Abstract. Both epithelial cell proliferation and fluid accumulation are responsible for cyst growth in autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease (ADPKD). It was previously reported that the cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator (CFTR) is expressed in cysts from ADPKD patients and suggested that cAMP-stimulated Cl- and fluid secretion occurs through CFTR. The purpose of this study was to investigate the role of cell proliferation in cyst formation in ADPKD and to explore further the role of fluid secretion in cyst growth. Primary cultures both of ADPKD epithelial cells and a mixed population of normal renal epithelial cells isolated from the cortex (HRCE cells) were used. This study tested whether cAMP was involved both in stimulating cell proliferation and formation of cysts in vitro. 3H-Thymidine incorporation assays showed that epidermal growth factor stimulated proliferation both in ADPKD cells and HRCE cells. In addition, cAMP stimulated DNA synthesis and cell proliferation in ADPKD, but not HRCE, cells. The effects of cAMP and epidermal growth factor on cell growth in ADPKD cells were additive. cAMP also stimulated cyst enlargement and fluid secretion in ADPKD cells. By contrast, cyst formation and enlargement from HRCE cells occurred without cAMP. Fluid secretion into the cyst lumen was blocked by diphenylamine carboxylic acid (DPC) and glibenclamide in ADPKD cells but blocked only by DPC in HRCE cells. This study showed that ADPKD cells have unique characteristics ; cAMP stimulates fluid secretion and cell proliferation, indicating cAMP plays a very important role in cyst growth during the course of ADPKD
02-28-2006, 06:33 AM
Every one panic right now after reading this. Just get a blood work, and check you liver enzyme value.Originally Posted by skull
There is an Indian study on sabinas webstite that shows people taking forslean for 12 weeks, and the liver, and kidneys vales were ok. However i can find the full text, and i dont know if study is legit, or its just a comercial for the product.
02-28-2006, 11:22 AM
I tend to think it's a bizarre coincidence that the cysts are producing this plant compound and that perhaps, a virus was involved in altering the kidney cells in the first place to get them to do this.
X-Muscle is correct in that there's been lots of work done on Forselean and anecdotally there's millions of people using it in one supplement or another so I'm somewhat comfortable using it at this point..but I still find the whole deal to be very odd.
02-28-2006, 06:00 PM
PKD is a GENETICAL disease.
Two reports of kidney aches are bad, though.
02-28-2006, 06:59 PM
Re: liposolv/ergo Quote:
Originally Posted by scull
I applied on the belly and love handle area2x day/felt pain on upper love handle area and low back/pain seemed deep
well, if it was actually a DEEP pain, than it sounds like it were most likely related to stones (because you felt better when you moved, which is typical for stone-related pain).
However, assuming that it (the pain) started a few days after you have begun with liposolv and it ceized after you finished liposolv, the "stone"-diagnosis is not very probable.
What I could imagine is that something completely different happened: The epinephrine that is contained in liposolv could either
1.) become systemically available and led to constriction of renal vessels
2.) affected peripheral nerves that share the same spinal root as the deep nerves of kidney-fascia. You have surely heard for the "Head-Zones". So, if the epineprhine possibly "irritated" the skin-nerves within the Head-Zone related to the kidneys you might have got the impression to have "kidney" pain.
Most probably you seem to not have a kidney disease.
Nonetheless, go to your doc and let check him kidney parameters and make an ultrasound, as some guy above already suggested.
I will change these 'genetic' flaws and I will make myself 'better' than I was 'naturally' supposed to be
03-01-2006, 02:02 AM
Yep is genetic disorder, but forslean seems to activae MAP-kinase signaling cascade in the kidney, which mimcs PKD like symptoms. I think every one is over reacting. But IMO high forsklin extraxt can be little dangerous, since its strong enough to active Map-Kinase signaling receptors, and active Adelnyene cyclase, Over produce cAMP......ect.Originally Posted by Syr
Thats why its used as standard for activating cAMP in many molecular and cell biology studies. Most studies are done on less potent extracts 10%, and at small doses. to me a 90% extract is not a supplement anymore, its a drug with a profound effects.
03-01-2006, 06:10 AM
???Originally Posted by cool989
Please elaborate. I dont like this spooky attitude.
03-01-2006, 06:18 AM
Well, A 20 or 40% extract taken at high doses equals a 90% extract at low doseOriginally Posted by x_muscle
Forskolin is one of the most potent herbal supplements, period.
People should NOT megadose it. It really activate cAMP and stimulates the thyroid gland. Use wisely.
Besides this, I dont know what in this topical could cause problems in the kidneys area but I would simply avoid to put it there until more light is made.
03-01-2006, 01:20 PM
No over reacting..just trying to play it safe. I love this stuff and have taken lots of it so I'm just trying to make sure I understand the implications of the study.
I have a fear that some supplement will off me and all the people that know I am a supplement freak will say "Ya see? Bio just got carried away with all that crap and it killed him. Poor fool." LOL
Now knowing that it is a genetic disorder is helpful, but it's still a total mystery as to why the cysts produce forskohlin like that..to me that smacks of a virally induced genetic abherration...sort of a gene therapy in other words.
03-01-2006, 02:21 PM
Doesnt it seem rediculous to anyone else that they linked a molecular formula to a full blown structure through GOOGLE?!?!?
No NMR/IR specs? Now I'm just an organic chem student now, but I mean honestly how the hell can they say that the structure of the lipid is the same as forskolin? Ever heard of isomers?
03-01-2006, 08:35 PM
03-01-2006, 08:42 PM
Thats actuly possible, and it called conditional mutation. Some genes are activated, or de-activated at certain condotions. Example some gens in humans are usually in active, but they are turned on in extreme cold tempreture.Originally Posted by bioman
This kind of mutation are induced in the lab, and used in molcular genetics labratory to study behavior of genetic disorders.
So in the case forsklin, activation of map-kinase, and in increase in cAMP may trigger genes that is inactive in normal level of cAMP in the kidneys line cells, and that cn cause the cyst formation.
03-01-2006, 09:24 PM
I think Bioman is talking about viral transformation, a virus delivering the plant forskholin gene into the person. Not activation of a gene already present in the person.
And Enigma76 is right if you read the report literally. It impies they made the identification based only on the molecular formula C22H3407. Of course there are many many molecules besides forskholin which could have that formula, but I think its safe to assume that they confirmed it is actualy forskholin by some other means.
I ordered Liposolv as soon as it came out. I have been applying a double dose twice a day. By coincidince I had my yearly medical exam at work on the seventeenth day. I work with preclinical pharmaceuticals so the bloodwork is pretty extensive. Everything, including kidney and liver values came back normal. Of course it was only seventeen days, and I do have substantial love handles to absorb the stuff and make penetration to the kidneys less lilkely. But I am having no ill effects from it.
03-01-2006, 09:28 PM
I mean, I kind of figured they would need to have confirmed it by other means, but the report is absolutely rediculously worded.Originally Posted by Gungalalunga
03-02-2006, 12:14 AM
I was thinking the same thing...that's a scarey chem lab that relies on Google for positive ID. lol
I was thinking more along the lines of viral transformation.but not knowing the name I just kinda flung it out there. My bio career centered around bigger critters.
Well, if any of us get PKD, please bump this thread so I can stop taking my mix with 20% and 95% forselean.
03-02-2006, 12:21 AM
Just an FYI-Patrick Arnold is totally calling this kidney issue bogus over at musclegurus. Not very professional of him to discount our real-world experiences. Don't get me wrong, I think Liposolv is a nifty topical besides the possible kidney issues that could arise from Forskolin.
03-02-2006, 07:37 AM
This is also being discussed on avant http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=22307
Just wanted to highlight something...
Maybe two (provocative ?) questions:
1) Since when has Google.com become the method of choice for the elucidation of the structure of unknown compounds ? During my undergraduate and graduate chemistry studies (and that's not so long ago), we typically used a bit more reliable methodologies like 1H/13C NMR spectroscopy, mass spectrometry,... And if by chance we had the molecular formula, we would use it to query databases like the Chemical Abstract Registry (CAS). In fact, when entering C22H34O7 in CAS, I get no less than 248 compounds, among them of course forskolin, but also some fatty acids, steroid hormones and prostaglandin derivatives (which may make a bit more sense in the context of the described pathology).
2) Like Par Deus already mentioned, I would also be interested in knowing how the body can produce forskolin ? To my knowledge (but please correct me if I'm wrong), mammals lack the enzymes involved in the synthesis of terpenoids (mainly available only in plants), the only notorious exception being the enzymes involved in the oligomerisation of isopren to form geranyl, farnesyl,... (side chains used to anchor proteins to the cell wall), up to squalene, which is processed by the squalene oxidase as the first step in the cyclisation reaction leading to cholesterol.
Therefore, if the identified substance is forskolin, then it probably came there through supplementation (although the authors seem to exclude this possibility). Otherwise, it's not forskolin, and in that case, it would be nice to have access to the structural elucidation data (if available).
-Posted by Psychem
This is along what I was speaking to, X Muscle...
03-02-2006, 01:21 PM
Nice post enigma. The whole study and proclamation these guys made about forskohlin does not add up. The Google thing is pretty troubling at best. I for one, am getting a little tired of researchers finding something that may, or may not be attributed to a supplement and running to the media with it before conclusive information is had. That's just a hack job of research IMO.
03-05-2006, 10:11 PM
so does this stuff actuall work at all? Does anyone have any logs on this some where?
03-06-2006, 09:32 AM
For some reason musclegurus seems to be down for me for the last few weeks?? Is the site working for you?Originally Posted by unitas27
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