Saw Palmetto found to be ineffective with prostate health

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    Well, think what you want to of the FDA, of the pharm industry, and of doctors, but the fact of the matter is I've seen countless people in this thread say the research is bunk and biased but none have provided a shred of evidence as to why they think that. Thats just ridiculous. If the bias exists find it, I personally don't have the time or desire to. Just asking that you guys be a little more scientific about things.

    For what its worth, I did study SP extensively along with the other prostate drugs in medical school. So don't act like there aren't doctors out there pushing this stuff too.

    As far as alpha blockers I'd look at the one alpha 1A specific blocker out there Tamulosin/Flomax. You'll have less of the nasty vascular sides. Don't mix it c viagra or any of the other "fils" Its just a short bandaid fix until your androgen levels get back to physiological. It has an onset of about 5 days vs. the 5 ar's that are anywhere from 6 weeks (SP) to a couple months (fina/duta) which is why when I hear people say they started taking things like SP and saw quick results I am very skeptical (placebo). Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy

    I don't think prophylaxis is all that great a plan. If you already have prostate issues you probably shouldn't be playing with androgens, but thats your own business.

    Please keep in mind that I'm just some jackass on an internet bodybuilding forum. My advice is not meant to replace that of your doctors and should in no way be taken as the advice of a health care professional. Stay in school, don't do drugs. Always consult your doctor before starting a new exercise or diet/supplement plan.
    jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
    jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?
    Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.

    Here's what I'd do. Go see your doc. Tell him/her your already taking SP but still having problems and would like to try an alpha blocker. He'll wanna do a digital exam and probably get a base PSA (NOTE: w/drugs like finasteride PSA will be halved so you have to adjust for this (ie, a value of 2 might be normal but in your case would really be a value of 4 and potentially abnormal)). Alpha blockers (doxazosin) have been shown to be more effective in some studies than sterides and a combination of the two has additive affects. Go with tamsulosin or doxazosin if you choose an alpha.

    Another option is to try some things like avoiding caffeine, (psuedo)ephedrine, first generation antihistamines, and doing a fluid restriction at night. That might get you by and would obviously be better than adding more drugs.

    Once again, this advice isn't to be taken as that of a healthcare provider but friendly advice from some random guy on the internet.
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  3. Well thank you for your input Jay. It's nice to hear about options from the medical side of the isle as well.

  4. Really great contribution Jay, thanks.

    I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one but I'll ask anyway. In terms of prostrate problems, AAS can speed up your development of the problem but not create it. COrrect? ALso it's mainly androgenic AAS's that do this. Right?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by wideguy
    Really great contribution Jay, thanks.

    I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one but I'll ask anyway. In terms of prostrate problems, AAS can speed up your development of the problem but not create it. COrrect? ALso it's mainly androgenic AAS's that do this. Right?
    Androgens can definitely create the problem, in my opinion. For sure anything that can be converted to DHT, maybe anything that can bind to an androgen receptor with substantial affinity. The same reason your muscles grow faster on steroids...But like I said, its a function of androgens and age/time. Plus, once you remove the increased trophic stimulation (ie, return hormone levels to physiologic norms) you gotta figure you wont have the hormonal support to maintain the increased size which is why 5-ar inhibitors work and why it can be dificult to maintain gains in muscle. Something else to consider is not everyone gets relief from a 5-ar inhibitor. There must be MULTIPLE mechanisms for the development of nodular hyperplasia (interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT)

    Contrast that with something like ephedrine that binds at alpha receptors and can cause a rapid, short term affect by making the muscle contract. Ever notice how ephedrine makes you have the dribbles? Though prolonged use will also have a trophic effect but not to the severity of DHT/androgens.
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  6. Damn those dribbles to hell. lol

    "interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT"

    I've long been suspicious of elevated estrogen levels in older men being the culprit of many conditions. That's why I think Proscar is a bad idea for men unless they are also addressing estrogen issues. Even then, I suspect that something like SP or beta sitasterol may be a better way to go if the condition is not extreme. The less aggressive binding of DHT by these compounds may be a good thing when one considers the estrogen antagonist role of DHT.

  7. Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why

    Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.

    I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.

    That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.

    BV

  8. Part of that study makes perfect sense to me.
    at 160mg x2 a day it didn't do anything for me either.

    Now, at 320mg 2x/day ....it worked quite well. I believe the dosage has a lot to do with the study's results.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.

    Here's what I'd do. Go see your doc. Tell him/her your already taking SP but still having problems and would like to try an alpha blocker. He'll wanna do a digital exam and probably get a base PSA (NOTE: w/drugs like finasteride PSA will be halved so you have to adjust for this (ie, a value of 2 might be normal but in your case would really be a value of 4 and potentially abnormal)). Alpha blockers (doxazosin) have been shown to be more effective in some studies than sterides and a combination of the two has additive affects. Go with tamsulosin or doxazosin if you choose an alpha.

    Another option is to try some things like avoiding caffeine, (psuedo)ephedrine, first generation antihistamines, and doing a fluid restriction at night. That might get you by and would obviously be better than adding more drugs.

    Once again, this advice isn't to be taken as that of a healthcare provider but friendly advice from some random guy on the internet.
    thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
    thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?
    I'd be more worried about what your lipids are doing than your prostate at this point. Ultimately, its going to come down to do more gains merit the risk of xxxxx complication. If I told you you'd be safe or that you'd for sure be in danger I'd be talking out my ass, just too many variables.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why

    Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.

    I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.

    That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.

    BV
    Really no one should be surprised there was a study where SP failed to work. Long term studies show no single drug will be good enough in everyone. Dutasteride fails. Finasteride fails.

  12. i'm goin in for blood work in a couple more weeks its been 11 weeks since my cycle end. so i'll see where i stand and then make a decision., are those prostate drugs tamsulosin or doxazosin already combos or do i need to get dutrasterice and an alpha blocker ?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
    i'm goin in for blood work in a couple more weeks its been 11 weeks since my cycle end. so i'll see where i stand and then make a decision., are those prostate drugs tamsulosin or doxazosin already combos or do i need to get dutrasterice and an alpha blocker ?
    tamsulosin is an alpha 1A specific blocker only. Doxazosin is a nonselective alpha blocker. Talk to your doctor and he/she can probably help you decide which is best for you personally.

    You don't have to get dutasteride or finasteride. You can keep using the saw palmetto if you'd like. They all work in about the same way. The only difference is the other two have gone through more trials. It takes like 500 million bucks to bring a drug to market, where as an herbal is pretty much free. There is at least one study that compared SP to fina i think (I can't remember if it was a direct clinical trial or if it was a metanalysis). They both worked about the same from what I remember.

  14. thanks for the imfo random guy !
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