TrainTilUDrop
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Yeah, I'm not gonna believe this study either. It's porbably funded by a company that owns a patent on some man-made prostate drugs
Not exactly a micky mouse study or a micky mouse journal its published in. If you chose to write off research at your own discretion why even have science? Thats a very unscientific attitudeN Engl J Med. 2006 Feb 9;354(6):557-566. Related Articles, Links
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Saw palmetto for benign prostatic hyperplasia.
Bent S, Kane C, Shinohara K, Neuhaus J, Hudes ES, Goldberg H, Avins AL.
Osher Center for Integrative Medicine, Department of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: Saw palmetto is used by over 2 million men in the United States for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia and is commonly recommended as an alternative to drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration. METHODS: In this double-blind trial, we randomly assigned 225 men over the age of 49 years who had moderate-to-severe symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia to one year of treatment with saw palmetto extract (160 mg twice a day) or placebo. The primary outcome measures were changes in the scores on the American Urological Association Symptom Index (AUASI) and the maximal urinary flow rate. Secondary outcome measures included changes in prostate size, residual urinary volume after voiding, quality of life, laboratory values, and the rate of reported adverse effects. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between the saw palmetto and placebo groups in the change in AUASI scores (mean difference, 0.04 point; 95 percent confidence interval, -0.93 to 1.01), maximal urinary flow rate (mean difference, 0.43 ml per minute; 95 percent confidence interval, -0.52 to 1.38), prostate size, residual volume after voiding, quality of life, or serum prostate-specific antigen levels during the one-year study. The incidence of side effects was similar in the two groups. CONCLUSIONS: In this study, saw palmetto did not improve symptoms or objective measures of benign prostatic hyperplasia. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00037154.). Copyright 2006 Massachusetts Medical Society.
Publication Types:
* Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 16467543
I would not put much stock in this study, nor would I listen to anyone spreading this drivel. This study was meant to fool the uninformed and weak minded.Not exactly a micky mouse study or a micky mouse journal its published in. If you chose to write off research at your own discretion why even have science? Thats a very unscientific attitude
Placebo effect is powerful. This seems to be a well controlled study, at least better controled than "When I'm taking steroids I have less trouble peeing when I take saw palmetto, something I know thats supposed ot make me pee better" Placebo effect is powerful.
5 alpha reductase inhibitors take a long time to start working. You guys needing quick onset type stuff should really look at alpha blockers.
what are you basing that statement on?I would not put much stock in this study, nor would I listen to anyone spreading this drivel. This study was meant to fool the uninformed and weak minded.
Last paragraph. Exactly. This is (I think) the 19th study on SP and the first to show no statistically relevant effect. That doesn't mean there's some global conspiracy, just that the nature of the effect of SP hasn't been studied as completely as it could be. Or maybe there was some error in the design/execuation of the study. Either way, I just think taking the stance (and I'm not accusing bio of this) that the study is bunk because it had a result contrary to what you wanted is the epitomy of ignorance. Its like burning books, witch hunting, etc.Believe what you chose to. It is a reputable research institution and a reputable publication, however as a scientist I gave up putting all my stock in science a long time ago. I'm NOT saying it is worthless, but I simply chose to take it with a grain of salt like I do everything else in this world.
Recall that "science" could not determine if steroids caused muscle growth or not after nearly 35 years of study. It wasn't until the 80's that scientific community finally agreed that this was the case. Something that was patently obvious to AAS users was nebulous to researchers. The devil is always in the details, the methodology and even the intellectual/observational abilities of the researchers.
Why have science? It's just one way we legitimize our observations but it is not gospel until hundreds of studies have been completed and the majority agree. One study does not a theory make.
Well, think what you want to of the FDA, of the pharm industry, and of doctors, but the fact of the matter is I've seen countless people in this thread say the research is bunk and biased but none have provided a shred of evidence as to why they think that. Thats just ridiculous. If the bias exists find it, I personally don't have the time or desire to. Just asking that you guys be a little more scientific about things.COuld you provide some examples of a alpha blocker that would be better?
BTw I'm not trying ot be disrespectful to anyone here. But you should understand where these people are coming from Jay. Doctors don't make money off of curing people, and saw palmetto is not a drug. I don't feel they are ALL scumbags, but the pharaceutical/insurance companies that are behind it all? Scumbag would be a compliment.
Because the media is run by bottom feeders, not scientistslol, Thanks Jay. I saw results with SP fairly fast because my prostate problem was very minor and I was taking massive doses of the stuff because I knew it was supposed to take a while to kick in. The prostate problem could have easily rectified itself on cycle, but given that my urine stream got stronger than normal on the SP, I tend to think it was from that rather than chance.
I am not hostile to western medicine, not by a long shot but I do view reports such as these with a great deal of suspicion. Somehow, magically, the media latches on to one study like this and holds it up as the definitive study on SP yet manages to ignore the hundreds of other studies that state the opposite. One really has to ask themselves why that is.
alpha blockers relax the smooth muscle in the prostate. Prostatic contraction is important in ejaculation. "Point and Shoot" parasympathetics to get an errections, sympathetics to ejaculate. Its also likely that there are alpha1A receptors elsewhere in the ejaculatory tract.Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
why is this jay?
jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?Well, think what you want to of the FDA, of the pharm industry, and of doctors, but the fact of the matter is I've seen countless people in this thread say the research is bunk and biased but none have provided a shred of evidence as to why they think that. Thats just ridiculous. If the bias exists find it, I personally don't have the time or desire to. Just asking that you guys be a little more scientific about things.
For what its worth, I did study SP extensively along with the other prostate drugs in medical school. So don't act like there aren't doctors out there pushing this stuff too.
As far as alpha blockers I'd look at the one alpha 1A specific blocker out there Tamulosin/Flomax. You'll have less of the nasty vascular sides. Don't mix it c viagra or any of the other "fils" Its just a short bandaid fix until your androgen levels get back to physiological. It has an onset of about 5 days vs. the 5 ar's that are anywhere from 6 weeks (SP) to a couple months (fina/duta) which is why when I hear people say they started taking things like SP and saw quick results I am very skeptical (placebo). Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
I don't think prophylaxis is all that great a plan. If you already have prostate issues you probably shouldn't be playing with androgens, but thats your own business.
Please keep in mind that I'm just some jackass on an internet bodybuilding forum. My advice is not meant to replace that of your doctors and should in no way be taken as the advice of a health care professional. Stay in school, don't do drugs. Always consult your doctor before starting a new exercise or diet/supplement plan. :study:
Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?
Androgens can definitely create the problem, in my opinion. For sure anything that can be converted to DHT, maybe anything that can bind to an androgen receptor with substantial affinity. The same reason your muscles grow faster on steroids...But like I said, its a function of androgens and age/time. Plus, once you remove the increased trophic stimulation (ie, return hormone levels to physiologic norms) you gotta figure you wont have the hormonal support to maintain the increased size which is why 5-ar inhibitors work and why it can be dificult to maintain gains in muscle. Something else to consider is not everyone gets relief from a 5-ar inhibitor. There must be MULTIPLE mechanisms for the development of nodular hyperplasia (interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT)Really great contribution Jay, thanks.
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one but I'll ask anyway. In terms of prostrate problems, AAS can speed up your development of the problem but not create it. COrrect? ALso it's mainly androgenic AAS's that do this. Right?
thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.
Here's what I'd do. Go see your doc. Tell him/her your already taking SP but still having problems and would like to try an alpha blocker. He'll wanna do a digital exam and probably get a base PSA (NOTE: w/drugs like finasteride PSA will be halved so you have to adjust for this (ie, a value of 2 might be normal but in your case would really be a value of 4 and potentially abnormal)). Alpha blockers (doxazosin) have been shown to be more effective in some studies than sterides and a combination of the two has additive affects. Go with tamsulosin or doxazosin if you choose an alpha.
Another option is to try some things like avoiding caffeine, (psuedo)ephedrine, first generation antihistamines, and doing a fluid restriction at night. That might get you by and would obviously be better than adding more drugs.
Once again, this advice isn't to be taken as that of a healthcare provider but friendly advice from some random guy on the internet.
I'd be more worried about what your lipids are doing than your prostate at this point. Ultimately, its going to come down to do more gains merit the risk of xxxxx complication. If I told you you'd be safe or that you'd for sure be in danger I'd be talking out my ass, just too many variables.thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?
Really no one should be surprised there was a study where SP failed to work. Long term studies show no single drug will be good enough in everyone. Dutasteride fails. Finasteride fails.Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why
Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.
I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.
That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.
BV
tamsulosin is an alpha 1A specific blocker only. Doxazosin is a nonselective alpha blocker. Talk to your doctor and he/she can probably help you decide which is best for you personally.i'm goin in for blood work in a couple more weeks its been 11 weeks since my cycle end. so i'll see where i stand and then make a decision., are those prostate drugs tamsulosin or doxazosin already combos or do i need to get dutrasterice and an alpha blocker ?
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