TrainTilUDrop
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Saw Palmetto found to be ineffective with prostate health
- Thread starter TrainTilUDrop
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wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
wow. that sucks. I'd like to hear more on this so I dont waste anymore money.
MICK92
New member
It seemed to help me while on 1ad as far as keeping a strong piss flow. Without it it seems to take awhile to get started & not as strong. I wonder about this test after reading this quote.
"Dr. Ronald Morton, chief of urology at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation in New Jersey, said supplements should be tested under government standards similar to those required of prescription drugs. Morton, along with a colleague, helped dispel beliefs about another herbal supplement, PC-SPES. His analysis found the preparation contained prescription drugs and contaminants."
Maybe pushing for control.
OUT
"Dr. Ronald Morton, chief of urology at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation in New Jersey, said supplements should be tested under government standards similar to those required of prescription drugs. Morton, along with a colleague, helped dispel beliefs about another herbal supplement, PC-SPES. His analysis found the preparation contained prescription drugs and contaminants."
Maybe pushing for control.
OUT
bioman
Well-known member
I agree. I do think it works and it has for me. Kidna hard to get a placebo reaction on your prostate. Keep in mind there are dozens of groups out there testing herbs and supps that have a strong bias against them. This very much sounds like the case here. I'd imagine they'd like everyone on Proscar instead, which is terrible drug that helps upregulate estrogen in old men by blocking all DHT.
The constituents in SP have been shown to be effective in numerous studies so I'd take this newest one with a grain of salt. The same goes for all the benefits of vitamin E..but Johns Hopkins University felt the need to publish an article called "Vitamin E causes Death" which was total and complete horseshit...bad science, terriblely biased and factually untrue.
Downplay the herbs..but glorify the Drugs...it's a standard operating procedure for many in western medicine IMO.
The constituents in SP have been shown to be effective in numerous studies so I'd take this newest one with a grain of salt. The same goes for all the benefits of vitamin E..but Johns Hopkins University felt the need to publish an article called "Vitamin E causes Death" which was total and complete horseshit...bad science, terriblely biased and factually untrue.
Downplay the herbs..but glorify the Drugs...it's a standard operating procedure for many in western medicine IMO.
StanChampion
Registered User
ehh works for me at 600mg/day.
Dredlockguy
New member
Yeah, I'm not gonna believe this study either. It's porbably funded by a company that owns a patent on some man-made prostate drugs
Jay Mc
Member
Dredlockguy said:
Not exactly a micky mouse study or a micky mouse journal its published in. If you chose to write off research at your own discretion why even have science? Thats a very unscientific attitude
Placebo effect is powerful. This seems to be a well controlled study, at least better controled than "When I'm taking steroids I have less trouble peeing when I take saw palmetto, something I know thats supposed ot make me pee better"
Placebo effect is powerful. 5 alpha reductase inhibitors take a long time to start working. You guys needing quick onset type stuff should really look at alpha blockers.
502 Country Boy
New member
Science isn't really solid if its done by people with another motive altogether from its purpose of educating the masses.
The Graduate
New member
if its the same study i read the other day, it looks a SP effects on medium to serve cases of prostate problems.
Not as a precationary supp or even early stages, so does not relate to usage that many of us use it for.
Not as a precationary supp or even early stages, so does not relate to usage that many of us use it for.
bigj97233
New member
I would not put much stock in this study, nor would I listen to anyone spreading this drivel. This study was meant to fool the uninformed and weak minded.Jay Mc said:Not exactly a micky mouse study or a micky mouse journal its published in. If you chose to write off research at your own discretion why even have science? Thats a very unscientific attitude
Placebo effect is powerful. This seems to be a well controlled study, at least better controled than "When I'm taking steroids I have less trouble peeing when I take saw palmetto, something I know thats supposed ot make me pee better"
5 alpha reductase inhibitors take a long time to start working. You guys needing quick onset type stuff should really look at alpha blockers.
bioman
Well-known member
Believe what you chose to. It is a reputable research institution and a reputable publication, however as a scientist I gave up putting all my stock in science a long time ago. I'm NOT saying it is worthless, but I simply chose to take it with a grain of salt like I do everything else in this world.
Recall that "science" could not determine if steroids caused muscle growth or not after nearly 35 years of study. It wasn't until the 80's that scientific community finally agreed that this was the case. Something that was patently obvious to AAS users was nebulous to researchers. The devil is always in the details, the methodology and even the intellectual/observational abilities of the researchers.
Why have science? It's just one way we legitimize our observations but it is not gospel until hundreds of studies have been completed and the majority agree. One study does not a theory make.
Recall that "science" could not determine if steroids caused muscle growth or not after nearly 35 years of study. It wasn't until the 80's that scientific community finally agreed that this was the case. Something that was patently obvious to AAS users was nebulous to researchers. The devil is always in the details, the methodology and even the intellectual/observational abilities of the researchers.
Why have science? It's just one way we legitimize our observations but it is not gospel until hundreds of studies have been completed and the majority agree. One study does not a theory make.
Jay Mc
Member
bioman said:
Last paragraph. Exactly. This is (I think) the 19th study on SP and the first to show no statistically relevant effect. That doesn't mean there's some global conspiracy, just that the nature of the effect of SP hasn't been studied as completely as it could be. Or maybe there was some error in the design/execuation of the study. Either way, I just think taking the stance (and I'm not accusing bio of this) that the study is bunk because it had a result contrary to what you wanted is the epitomy of ignorance. Its like burning books, witch hunting, etc.
It just troubles me to see so many people dismiss information for no good reason. I don't think most people understand how difficult it is to get an article published or a study funded. As a scientist it frustrates me. If you can find some specific flaw in the design or study execution, fine, criticize the study. But don't pass judgement prematurely. Thats all I'm asking.
And I STILL think you guys should be looking at alpha antagonists instead of 5ar inhibitors. I think they would work much better with your goals and issues sinc 5ar inhitors have such a slow onset. If you want to be on something chronic, long term, 5ar inhibitor is fine, but for short term problems I think alpha blockers are better.
wideguy
Board Supporter
COuld you provide some examples of a alpha blocker that would be better?
BTw I'm not trying ot be disrespectful to anyone here. But you should understand where these people are coming from Jay. Doctors don't make money off of curing people, and saw palmetto is not a drug. I don't feel they are ALL scumbags, but the pharaceutical/insurance companies that are behind it all? Scumbag would be a compliment.
BTw I'm not trying ot be disrespectful to anyone here. But you should understand where these people are coming from Jay. Doctors don't make money off of curing people, and saw palmetto is not a drug. I don't feel they are ALL scumbags, but the pharaceutical/insurance companies that are behind it all? Scumbag would be a compliment.
BryanM
Active member
Honestly I beleieve many should really look into Beta Sitosterol as the stronger active sterol in saw palmetto used in prostate shrinkage!!!
It is the target sterol that makes SP work and I firmly beleieve that if they had tested this insead would have different conclusions.
We need to keep in mind that SP doesnt always have the same standards for extraction of this sterol from one brand to the next........ might have something to do with the study as well
It is the target sterol that makes SP work and I firmly beleieve that if they had tested this insead would have different conclusions.
We need to keep in mind that SP doesnt always have the same standards for extraction of this sterol from one brand to the next........ might have something to do with the study as well
Dutchman
Active member
Very disturbing and confusing. I only know from my own experience that I was tested as having a PSA of 10 and to avoid the knife I was put on a heavy supplementation of Saw Palmetto, along with some Pumpkin Seed and Pygeum by my Dutch doctor. Within months I was back to a normal PSA of 3. I, later, pretty much switched to megadoses of Beta-Sitosterol (the key component of Saw Palmetto). Eight years later, I am still at 3 on my PSA test.
The second disturbing part is in my aversion to the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA. I don't trust either of them. No way, no how and never! I take all such "reports" with a ton of salt.
There are a lot of guys in Holland and Germany who owe much to the great effects of SP and its key ingredient, Beta-Sitosterol. Screw these predjuced test results!
The second disturbing part is in my aversion to the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA. I don't trust either of them. No way, no how and never! I take all such "reports" with a ton of salt.
There are a lot of guys in Holland and Germany who owe much to the great effects of SP and its key ingredient, Beta-Sitosterol. Screw these predjuced test results!
Jay Mc
Member
wideguy said:
Well, think what you want to of the FDA, of the pharm industry, and of doctors, but the fact of the matter is I've seen countless people in this thread say the research is bunk and biased but none have provided a shred of evidence as to why they think that. Thats just ridiculous. If the bias exists find it, I personally don't have the time or desire to. Just asking that you guys be a little more scientific about things.
For what its worth, I did study SP extensively along with the other prostate drugs in medical school. So don't act like there aren't doctors out there pushing this stuff too.
As far as alpha blockers I'd look at the one alpha 1A specific blocker out there Tamulosin/Flomax. You'll have less of the nasty vascular sides. Don't mix it c viagra or any of the other "fils" Its just a short bandaid fix until your androgen levels get back to physiological. It has an onset of about 5 days vs. the 5 ar's that are anywhere from 6 weeks (SP) to a couple months (fina/duta) which is why when I hear people say they started taking things like SP and saw quick results I am very skeptical (placebo). Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
I don't think prophylaxis is all that great a plan. If you already have prostate issues you probably shouldn't be playing with androgens, but thats your own business.
Please keep in mind that I'm just some jackass on an internet bodybuilding forum. My advice is not meant to replace that of your doctors and should in no way be taken as the advice of a health care professional. Stay in school, don't do drugs. Always consult your doctor before starting a new exercise or diet/supplement plan. :study:
bioman
Well-known member
lol, Thanks Jay. I saw results with SP fairly fast because my prostate problem was very minor and I was taking massive doses of the stuff because I knew it was supposed to take a while to kick in. The prostate problem could have easily rectified itself on cycle, but given that my urine stream got stronger than normal on the SP, I tend to think it was from that rather than chance.
I am not hostile to western medicine, not by a long shot but I do view reports such as these with a great deal of suspicion. Somehow, magically, the media latches on to one study like this and holds it up as the definitive study on SP yet manages to ignore the hundreds of other studies that state the opposite. One really has to ask themselves why that is.
I am not hostile to western medicine, not by a long shot but I do view reports such as these with a great deal of suspicion. Somehow, magically, the media latches on to one study like this and holds it up as the definitive study on SP yet manages to ignore the hundreds of other studies that state the opposite. One really has to ask themselves why that is.
bioman
Well-known member
lol, Thanks Jay. I saw results with SP fairly fast because my prostate problem was very minor and I was taking massive doses of the stuff because I knew it was supposed to take a while to kick in. The prostate problem could have easily rectified itself on cycle, but given that my urine stream got stronger than normal on the SP, I tend to think it was from that rather than chance.
I am not hostile to western medicine, not by a long shot but I do view reports such as these with a great deal of suspicion. Somehow, magically, the media latches on to one study like this and holds it up as the definitive study on SP yet manages to ignore the hundreds of other studies that state the opposite. One really has to ask themselves why that is.
I am not hostile to western medicine, not by a long shot but I do view reports such as these with a great deal of suspicion. Somehow, magically, the media latches on to one study like this and holds it up as the definitive study on SP yet manages to ignore the hundreds of other studies that state the opposite. One really has to ask themselves why that is.
Sirius
New member
These contradictory studies are bombarding us daily. What yesterday was bad is now good and vice versa. I remember speaking with a handful of MD's a few years ago who told me with "100% certainty" that steroids are purely placebo! WTF? Now this new revelation about SP? Give us all a break..or at least the few of us who are smarter than to believe every f***ing thing an MD says! Is anyone else besides me tired of these quack doctors and their pharmaceutical studies to assist people to become dependant on their moneymaking drugs to promote their wealth? The real truth is that these pricks wish to ban or condemn anything natural that works and endangers their pharmaceutical drug sales.:FUfinger:
wideguy
Board Supporter
Jay I respect you statement and to a large extent agree. Doctors sell things like that all the time. For example my mother's doctor put her on pharma grade DHEA and a few other things I can get via the internet (without breaking any laws). HOWEVER, he charged her easily 3x's the price I could have gotten it for. And that would be from the Vitamin Shoppe, forget buying it in bulk from the net. I'm very sceptical to say the least when it comes to these people, and cant' stand the way all the sheeple flock to whatever they say. I'll leave it alone after that. BTW thankyou for answer my question on the alternatives any idea where to get that?
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
why is this jay?
why is this jay?
Jay Mc
Member
wastedwhiteboy2 said:Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
why is this jay?
alpha blockers relax the smooth muscle in the prostate. Prostatic contraction is important in ejaculation. "Point and Shoot" parasympathetics to get an errections, sympathetics to ejaculate. Its also likely that there are alpha1A receptors elsewhere in the ejaculatory tract.
Wideguy,
Tamulosin is perscription only. I'm always amazed at how proficient you guys are at finding people that have drugs of all flavors so I'm sure there's someone out there that can get it for you if thats what your into (though i don't condone it). Or you could go to the doc but you're gonna have to get your butthole fingered and maybe some other hoops. Remember, I'm not suggesting it for people that have established problems, but for people on androgens that are having androgen related problems and need temporary relief.
Also, I'm not trying to tell you there aren't dooche bag doctors. There are dooche bags in every career field. Same deal with scientists (I remember one recent case of a guy total falsifying all his studies). I just don't want people to look at any study that puts "something natural" in a bad light as being propaganda from the drug industry. Thats just as bad as people that reject anything non-pharmaceutical as placebo. Just sheep of a different flock.
Same disclaimer, don't take this as advice from anyone knowledgeable, consult your doctor, don't use drugs, etc.
Just a message from the FDA/Pharm Industry/Quack Doctor organization for world domination
WATERLOGGED
supreme being
jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?Jay Mc said:Well, think what you want to of the FDA, of the pharm industry, and of doctors, but the fact of the matter is I've seen countless people in this thread say the research is bunk and biased but none have provided a shred of evidence as to why they think that. Thats just ridiculous. If the bias exists find it, I personally don't have the time or desire to. Just asking that you guys be a little more scientific about things.
For what its worth, I did study SP extensively along with the other prostate drugs in medical school. So don't act like there aren't doctors out there pushing this stuff too.
As far as alpha blockers I'd look at the one alpha 1A specific blocker out there Tamulosin/Flomax. You'll have less of the nasty vascular sides. Don't mix it c viagra or any of the other "fils" Its just a short bandaid fix until your androgen levels get back to physiological. It has an onset of about 5 days vs. the 5 ar's that are anywhere from 6 weeks (SP) to a couple months (fina/duta) which is why when I hear people say they started taking things like SP and saw quick results I am very skeptical (placebo). Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
I don't think prophylaxis is all that great a plan. If you already have prostate issues you probably shouldn't be playing with androgens, but thats your own business.
Please keep in mind that I'm just some jackass on an internet bodybuilding forum. My advice is not meant to replace that of your doctors and should in no way be taken as the advice of a health care professional. Stay in school, don't do drugs. Always consult your doctor before starting a new exercise or diet/supplement plan. :study:
Jay Mc
Member
WATERLOGGED said:
Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.
Here's what I'd do. Go see your doc. Tell him/her your already taking SP but still having problems and would like to try an alpha blocker. He'll wanna do a digital exam and probably get a base PSA (NOTE: w/drugs like finasteride PSA will be halved so you have to adjust for this (ie, a value of 2 might be normal but in your case would really be a value of 4 and potentially abnormal)). Alpha blockers (doxazosin) have been shown to be more effective in some studies than sterides and a combination of the two has additive affects. Go with tamsulosin or doxazosin if you choose an alpha.
Another option is to try some things like avoiding caffeine, (psuedo)ephedrine, first generation antihistamines, and doing a fluid restriction at night. That might get you by and would obviously be better than adding more drugs.
Once again, this advice isn't to be taken as that of a healthcare provider but friendly advice from some random guy on the internet.
Jay Mc
Member
wideguy said:
Androgens can definitely create the problem, in my opinion. For sure anything that can be converted to DHT, maybe anything that can bind to an androgen receptor with substantial affinity. The same reason your muscles grow faster on steroids...But like I said, its a function of androgens and age/time. Plus, once you remove the increased trophic stimulation (ie, return hormone levels to physiologic norms) you gotta figure you wont have the hormonal support to maintain the increased size which is why 5-ar inhibitors work and why it can be dificult to maintain gains in muscle. Something else to consider is not everyone gets relief from a 5-ar inhibitor. There must be MULTIPLE mechanisms for the development of nodular hyperplasia (interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT)
Contrast that with something like ephedrine that binds at alpha receptors and can cause a rapid, short term affect by making the muscle contract. Ever notice how ephedrine makes you have the dribbles? Though prolonged use will also have a trophic effect but not to the severity of DHT/androgens.
bioman
Well-known member
Damn those dribbles to hell. lol
"interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT"
I've long been suspicious of elevated estrogen levels in older men being the culprit of many conditions. That's why I think Proscar is a bad idea for men unless they are also addressing estrogen issues. Even then, I suspect that something like SP or beta sitasterol may be a better way to go if the condition is not extreme. The less aggressive binding of DHT by these compounds may be a good thing when one considers the estrogen antagonist role of DHT.
"interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT"
I've long been suspicious of elevated estrogen levels in older men being the culprit of many conditions. That's why I think Proscar is a bad idea for men unless they are also addressing estrogen issues. Even then, I suspect that something like SP or beta sitasterol may be a better way to go if the condition is not extreme. The less aggressive binding of DHT by these compounds may be a good thing when one considers the estrogen antagonist role of DHT.
BigVrunga
Well-known member
Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why
Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.
I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.
That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.
BV
Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.
I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.
That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.
BV
WATERLOGGED
supreme being
thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?Jay Mc said:
Jay Mc
Member
WATERLOGGED said:
I'd be more worried about what your lipids are doing than your prostate at this point. Ultimately, its going to come down to do more gains merit the risk of xxxxx complication. If I told you you'd be safe or that you'd for sure be in danger I'd be talking out my ass, just too many variables.
Jay Mc
Member
BigVrunga said:Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why
Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.
I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.
That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.
BV
Really no one should be surprised there was a study where SP failed to work. Long term studies show no single drug will be good enough in everyone. Dutasteride fails. Finasteride fails.
WATERLOGGED
supreme being
i'm goin in for blood work in a couple more weeks its been 11 weeks since my cycle end. so i'll see where i stand and then make a decision., are those prostate drugs tamsulosin or doxazosin already combos or do i need to get dutrasterice and an alpha blocker ?
Jay Mc
Member
WATERLOGGED said:
tamsulosin is an alpha 1A specific blocker only. Doxazosin is a nonselective alpha blocker. Talk to your doctor and he/she can probably help you decide which is best for you personally.
You don't have to get dutasteride or finasteride. You can keep using the saw palmetto if you'd like. They all work in about the same way. The only difference is the other two have gone through more trials. It takes like 500 million bucks to bring a drug to market, where as an herbal is pretty much free. There is at least one study that compared SP to fina i think (I can't remember if it was a direct clinical trial or if it was a metanalysis). They both worked about the same from what I remember.
WATERLOGGED
supreme being
thanks for the imfo random guy !