Saw Palmetto found to be ineffective with prostate health
02-13-2006 01:23 PM
Because the media is run by bottom feeders, not scientists
Originally Posted by bioman
02-13-2006 01:41 PM
These contradictory studies are bombarding us daily. What yesterday was bad is now good and vice versa. I remember speaking with a handful of MD's a few years ago who told me with "100% certainty" that steroids are purely placebo! WTF? Now this new revelation about SP? Give us all a break..or at least the few of us who are smarter than to believe every f***ing thing an MD says! Is anyone else besides me tired of these quack doctors and their pharmaceutical studies to assist people to become dependant on their moneymaking drugs to promote their wealth? The real truth is that these pricks wish to ban or condemn anything natural that works and endangers their pharmaceutical drug sales.
02-13-2006 02:31 PM
Jay I respect you statement and to a large extent agree. Doctors sell things like that all the time. For example my mother's doctor put her on pharma grade DHEA and a few other things I can get via the internet (without breaking any laws). HOWEVER, he charged her easily 3x's the price I could have gotten it for. And that would be from the Vitamin Shoppe, forget buying it in bulk from the net. I'm very sceptical to say the least when it comes to these people, and cant' stand the way all the sheeple flock to whatever they say. I'll leave it alone after that. BTW thankyou for answer my question on the alternatives any idea where to get that?
02-13-2006 03:48 PM
Oh yeah, tamulosin might make youo have problems ejaculating....enjoy
why is this jay?
02-13-2006 05:19 PM
alpha blockers relax the smooth muscle in the prostate. Prostatic contraction is important in ejaculation. "Point and Shoot" parasympathetics to get an errections, sympathetics to ejaculate. Its also likely that there are alpha1A receptors elsewhere in the ejaculatory tract.
Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
Tamulosin is perscription only. I'm always amazed at how proficient you guys are at finding people that have drugs of all flavors so I'm sure there's someone out there that can get it for you if thats what your into (though i don't condone it). Or you could go to the doc but you're gonna have to get your butthole fingered and maybe some other hoops. Remember, I'm not suggesting it for people that have established problems, but for people on androgens that are having androgen related problems and need temporary relief.
Also, I'm not trying to tell you there aren't dooche bag doctors. There are dooche bags in every career field. Same deal with scientists (I remember one recent case of a guy total falsifying all his studies). I just don't want people to look at any study that puts "something natural" in a bad light as being propaganda from the drug industry. Thats just as bad as people that reject anything non-pharmaceutical as placebo. Just sheep of a different flock.
Same disclaimer, don't take this as advice from anyone knowledgeable, consult your doctor, don't use drugs, etc.
Just a message from the FDA/Pharm Industry/Quack Doctor organization for world domination
02-13-2006 06:59 PM
jay ive developed a prostate problem my last cycle and i'm currently takeing saw palmetto , if i start takeing an alpha A1 will my mild prostate problem [peeing all night]stop and return to norm. ?
Originally Posted by Jay Mc
02-13-2006 08:59 PM
Prostate size is a function of age and androgens. You are 44 (which means you've got the age thing, no offense) and you've used androgens. You probably just sped yourself down an inevitable path to nodular hyperplasia of the prostate. Alpha stim is also trophic (makes it grow) but not to the degree DHT is. I think given your circumstances you don't have much hope of returning to 'normal' but you do have hope of being normal with continued drug use which is very important. You never know though, you can always try. Use a combo therapy for a while, quit using it once you're all better, and if you stay all better perfect. If your symptoms return you just go back on the meds.
Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
Here's what I'd do. Go see your doc. Tell him/her your already taking SP but still having problems and would like to try an alpha blocker. He'll wanna do a digital exam and probably get a base PSA (NOTE: w/drugs like finasteride PSA will be halved so you have to adjust for this (ie, a value of 2 might be normal but in your case would really be a value of 4 and potentially abnormal)). Alpha blockers (doxazosin) have been shown to be more effective in some studies than sterides and a combination of the two has additive affects. Go with tamsulosin or doxazosin if you choose an alpha.
Another option is to try some things like avoiding caffeine, (psuedo)ephedrine, first generation antihistamines, and doing a fluid restriction at night. That might get you by and would obviously be better than adding more drugs.
Once again, this advice isn't to be taken as that of a healthcare provider but friendly advice from some random guy on the internet.
02-13-2006 09:42 PM
Well thank you for your input Jay. It's nice to hear about options from the medical side of the isle as well.
02-13-2006 10:58 PM
Really great contribution Jay, thanks.
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one but I'll ask anyway. In terms of prostrate problems, AAS can speed up your development of the problem but not create it. COrrect? ALso it's mainly androgenic AAS's that do this. Right?
02-13-2006 11:29 PM
Androgens can definitely create the problem, in my opinion. For sure anything that can be converted to DHT, maybe anything that can bind to an androgen receptor with substantial affinity. The same reason your muscles grow faster on steroids...But like I said, its a function of androgens and age/time. Plus, once you remove the increased trophic stimulation (ie, return hormone levels to physiologic norms) you gotta figure you wont have the hormonal support to maintain the increased size which is why 5-ar inhibitors work and why it can be dificult to maintain gains in muscle. Something else to consider is not everyone gets relief from a 5-ar inhibitor. There must be MULTIPLE mechanisms for the development of nodular hyperplasia (interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT)
Originally Posted by wideguy
Contrast that with something like ephedrine that binds at alpha receptors and can cause a rapid, short term affect by making the muscle contract. Ever notice how ephedrine makes you have the dribbles? Though prolonged use will also have a trophic effect but not to the severity of DHT/androgens.
02-13-2006 11:36 PM
Damn those dribbles to hell. lol
"interestingly there is a hypothesis that higher estrogen may make the cells more sensitive to the effects of DHT"
I've long been suspicious of elevated estrogen levels in older men being the culprit of many conditions. That's why I think Proscar is a bad idea for men unless they are also addressing estrogen issues. Even then, I suspect that something like SP or beta sitasterol may be a better way to go if the condition is not extreme. The less aggressive binding of DHT by these compounds may be a good thing when one considers the estrogen antagonist role of DHT.
02-14-2006 01:08 AM
Because they're all getting kickbacks from the pharmeceutical companies that spend big $$$ pushing drugs on their stations, that's why
Seriously though, I dont discount western medicine either. Not at all - but a lot of doctors are in it to just clear up symptoms, not heal and make the body fuction at its best. Then again, most people dont care about treating their bodies like a high-performance machine either.
I think that SP study has merit, but so do all the others as well as hundreds of anecdotal reports that support them.
That's like me seeing a study that minoxidil doesnt regrow hair. Now I know that's BS, but you'll have people swear up and down that that is the case because of one study they read.
02-14-2006 08:00 AM
Part of that study makes perfect sense to me.
at 160mg x2 a day it didn't do anything for me either.
Now, at 320mg 2x/day ....it worked quite well. I believe the dosage has a lot to do with the study's results.
02-14-2006 08:45 AM
thanks jay this confirms what i really thought but didnt want to believe so about my age and this problem. hopefully i can still cycle but add sw/an AI/and cabergoline to keep prolactin/estro low.....or is this the end ?
Originally Posted by Jay Mc
02-14-2006 09:55 AM
I'd be more worried about what your lipids are doing than your prostate at this point. Ultimately, its going to come down to do more gains merit the risk of xxxxx complication. If I told you you'd be safe or that you'd for sure be in danger I'd be talking out my ass, just too many variables.
Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
02-14-2006 09:58 AM
Really no one should be surprised there was a study where SP failed to work. Long term studies show no single drug will be good enough in everyone. Dutasteride fails. Finasteride fails.
Originally Posted by BigVrunga
02-14-2006 10:36 AM
i'm goin in for blood work in a couple more weeks its been 11 weeks since my cycle end. so i'll see where i stand and then make a decision., are those prostate drugs tamsulosin or doxazosin already combos or do i need to get dutrasterice and an alpha blocker ?
02-14-2006 12:24 PM
tamsulosin is an alpha 1A specific blocker only. Doxazosin is a nonselective alpha blocker. Talk to your doctor and he/she can probably help you decide which is best for you personally.
Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED
You don't have to get dutasteride or finasteride. You can keep using the saw palmetto if you'd like. They all work in about the same way. The only difference is the other two have gone through more trials. It takes like 500 million bucks to bring a drug to market, where as an herbal is pretty much free. There is at least one study that compared SP to fina i think (I can't remember if it was a direct clinical trial or if it was a metanalysis). They both worked about the same from what I remember.
02-14-2006 03:17 PM
thanks for the imfo random guy !
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