Which seems to be working better for joints?
Nice, might definitely be worth a try seeing that celadrin might have lost it's effect on me. Could have also been the lowered dose of Omega flex (3 caps) and then switching to NOW brand with MSM. Might try switching back to Omega at the rec'd dose.As Toad said it really depends on your ailments. I take it you've tried glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM with little effect. I liek running Celadrin for 2 months then switching to Cissus as each seems to lose some effect after a few months.
Anywhere between a gram or two depending on your indivdual needs.What seems to be an effective dose of celadrin? I've yet to try the product out, but due to ongoing joint issues, I'm looking for a further addition on top of the cissus that I already use.
No problem at all bro. I will check with Bow on the T-Gel, he is the man with the recipie for the homemade joint dermal. Once again, thanks bro.:hammer:I have no clue man. Sorry. Anything containing DMSO would surely be best. It isn't the most fun or safest thing to use, but it is said to let just about anything through the skin.
I like NOW, and I wasn't trying to dump on the product, its just that the carrier seems weak, but I've never used it, so I can't be sure.The Celadrin lotion actually works quite well by Now. I like to use it on my knee prior to squats and I can definitely tell a big difference. It could be just the menthol masking the pain but I do also notice better joint movement long term. Havent tried Cissus yet, but have some on the way.
Thanks stri8ted_planet. NOW also has devil's claw root. No online bodybuilding store that I know of keeps it because it isn't known. You just COULD be the first ...Nice writeup Grunt. If I may add the Celadrin products also usually contain menthol which contains analgesic properties as well and helps with temporary pain. The Celadrin lotion actually works quite well by Now. I like to use it on my knee prior to squats and I can definitely tell a big difference. It could be just the menthol masking the pain but I do also notice better joint movement long term. Havent tried Cissus yet, but have some on the way.
Very cool! Welcome Aboard By the Way!I can pick up a few bottles on the next order!
What is UC?I had my wife try it for her UC. It did not seem effective for that purpose (few things are), however there's tons of research on devil's claw showing it to be quite useful for anti inflammatory and immunomodulatory purposes.
Grunt, trying to figure out what you were referring to with the curcumin. I performed a few searches to no avail. I have never heard of any long term issues with curcumin....After fairly thorough research on the question, here is my conclusion: Cartilage repair is something you have to work at all the time. Why? Because if you were able to wear it down in the first place, it means you probably will, again ... and again. Unless you stop lifting or something.
With that in mind, it must be made perfectly, absolutely clear that a damaged joint, no matter if the damage is to the cartilage, ligaments or tendons, simply WILL NOT REGENERATE while it is inflamed. Period. No workarounds, this is an absolute.
So if you have inflamation, it won't matter if you're ingesting tons of chondroitin or glucosamine, which are basic material for the reconstruction of cartilage. They'll just get eliminated. This explains both the popularity of glucosamine and its lack of effectiveness at rectifying anything but the lesser kinds of joint problems. It's not that it doesn't work. It's that the inflamation must first be killed.
Now most of you guys might know this already, but antiinflamatories are generally slightly anti-anabolic. Sad but true. No matter, they must be used anyways if you're going to get any repair done. Inflamation can take many days to disappear even when the joint isn't put under load or stress. A regular lifter doesn't have the luxury of squatting once a month.
I will repeat this again. Devil's claw root is extremely good at killing inflamation in joints. Medline has research on that and it is conclusive. It is also side-effect-free, except perhaps some slight anti-anabolic properties which cannot be avoided by using any antiinflamatories. I am not well versed in Cissus, but if it is antiinflamatory, then it is highly unlikely that it doesn't inhibit cyclooxygenases, and that right there is antianabolic. One vector of anabolism and inflamation are joined at the hip. They are in many ways the same process. Curcumin is also said to possess good antiinflamatory properties, but I do believe that long term treatment does pose some problems. There was a discussion of that a few months back and possibly if you run a search for curcumin and inflamatory you'll find it.
Once you get the inflamation out of the way, chondroitin and glucosamine can be put to work. Not before. Adding MSM and celadrin does help lubricate the joints nicely. Personally, I can do without MSM, it doesn't seem to do anything at all for me. Celadrin, OTOH, has become a staple of my joint support stack. It is good. Having lubricants is extremely important because this limits damage and inflamation when the joint is put under load or stress, making the next round of repairs that much easier.
I would like to know how Cissus works, but I do believe that even USP Labs don't exactly know for sure... Until then, the killer joint stack would be: devil's claw, chondroitin sulfate, glucosamine sulfate, celadrin, MSM and of course Cissus, although it isn't easy to know at this point what Cissus actually repairs because it does also have true analgesic properties which can easily mask a damage that is still there. This is an important thing to remember.
Sorry to hear that. Silver and Gold would help more than devil's claw root.UC = ulcerative collitis.
Yeah, it kinda is, depending what form you're using. I found my dose by taking a bunch of caps and seeing how my knees feel. Almost all extracts have differing potency, so it's impossible to say "take this number of caps". It has no side-effects that I know of, and I have taken large amounts before, to no ill effect, but good ones, yes.What's a good dose for devils claw? The recommended dose is usually underdosed in my experiences.
we understand how it works pretty well, actually the mechanism of action is pretty simple- i understand the concept of the "cascade effect" and that the vector of inflammation and anabolism tend to be joined, and there are inflammation processes in which the complement proteins must be activated during each step, BUT in relation to affecting anabolism, this is not always set in stone.I would like to know how Cissus works, but I do believe that even USP Labs don't exactly know for sure... Until then, the killer joint stack would be: devil's claw, chondroitin sulfate, glucosamine sulfate, celadrin, MSM and of course Cissus, although it isn't easy to know at this point what Cissus actually repairs because it does also have true analgesic properties which can easily mask a damage that is still there. This is an important thing to remember.
Didn't forget about you bro. I ran searches too and also found nothing, so I guess it might be my herbalist friend who said something. Seeing her tomorrow morning, I'll post up then.Grunt, trying to figure out what you were referring to with the curcumin. I performed a few searches to no avail. I have never heard of any long term issues with curcumin....
pretty good question bio- the bone remodeling cycle will usually prevent this by an increase in parathyroid activity (which recycles excessive calcium), i looked in the literature and i could not find anything that would support osteogenesis of non-bony tissue in healthy populations, BUT i am not sure about the elderly - one of the main mechanisms of action for cissus is myeloperoxidase inhibition, and myeloperoxidase is generally most active immediately after some type of injurious behavior to bone and/or connective tissue- and this reduction in myeloperoxidase activity is followed by a more rapid formation of the fibrocartilaginous and bony calluses, but normally only in the injured area, and this does not mean the process will necessarily overtake nearby healthy bone or tendon- an injured bone/tendon wil incur different disease processes than a healthy one- they tend to mobilize what they need to heal, and discard what they don't- just the way bone remodeling and repair goesI do have a question USP. With the increase in calcium uptake and retention around the injured site, is there a risk of ossification of non bone tissues? As you likely know, ossification of tendons and ligaments is a fairly common occurence in the elderly as well as the atheletes with numerous, untreated injuries.
Bumping a slightly dated thread, I find this protocol intriguing. Does anyone else have any thoughts on the value of alternating Cissus and Celadrin every month or two? And how would you work other joint supps (Glucosomine, Chondroitin, MSM, Devil's Claw) into the mix? In other words, what would be the ultimate, life-long joint supp stack? And would it change on-cycle as opposed to off-cycle?As Toad said it really depends on your ailments. I take it you've tried glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM with little effect. I liek running Celadrin for 2 months then switching to Cissus as each seems to lose some effect after a few months.
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