Cissus vs Celadrin
- 02-10-2006, 01:21 AM
- 02-10-2006, 02:26 AM
i have a rotator cuff and shoulder problem that has bothered me for almost 2 years and ive tried everything (well other than that devil's claw root ), but ill tell u one thing cissus has finally helped me get past the pain. I mean honestly it cant be placebo - i give full credit to the fact that i can finally do chest/shoulder exercises without feeling any discomfort because of cissus
my 2 cents- - -> RZO
- 02-10-2006, 04:09 AM
Not tried celadrin, cissu worked a treat for my shoulders. Also used it succesfully for a groin strain recently. Good stuff.
02-10-2006, 09:46 AM
Grunt, trying to figure out what you were referring to with the curcumin. I performed a few searches to no avail. I have never heard of any long term issues with curcumin....Originally Posted by Grunt76
02-10-2006, 10:19 AM
Sorry to hear that. Silver and Gold would help more than devil's claw root.Originally Posted by bioman
02-10-2006, 02:00 PM
She's fine at the moment. She's in remission and on sulfasalazine which seems to work pretty well.
We're trying to concieve right now so I'm leary of using either CS/CG for her. She did run a short cycle of CS and it did help her recover from a cold faster but since the UC is in remission, it was hard to see if it had an positive effect. CG put her in a terrible mood, but I think I have pinned down her main problem to hyperthyroidism.
As for Cissus..it's kind of long term supplement. I find it takes a few days of constant use to fully alleviate pain and restore some flexibility and that I need to take it consistently to fully appreciate it's effects.
Celadrin on the other hand seems to restore joint fluidity very quickly and I only take it when I'm feeling creeky and sore. Buy it bulk from CNW..it's a screamin deal.
02-10-2006, 02:10 PM
02-10-2006, 07:21 PM
How do you take the celadrin from CNW because I have some and it is real lumpy, and is a 1/2 tsp. or 1 tsp the recommended dosage because it does not say on the bottol, but my glucosamine says 1/2 tsp. is 2grams.
02-10-2006, 11:42 PM
02-11-2006, 11:30 AM
Yeah, it kinda is, depending what form you're using. I found my dose by taking a bunch of caps and seeing how my knees feel. Almost all extracts have differing potency, so it's impossible to say "take this number of caps". It has no side-effects that I know of, and I have taken large amounts before, to no ill effect, but good ones, yes.Originally Posted by ersatz
Dosage also depends on wether you take it every day or not...
02-12-2006, 11:57 AM
I ended up buying the NOW Topical Celadrin, will post on how it works out...
Would still like some info from the pros on whether or not bulk Celadrin Mixed w/T-Gel would be a good idea...
02-12-2006, 07:31 PM
we understand how it works pretty well, actually the mechanism of action is pretty simple- i understand the concept of the "cascade effect" and that the vector of inflammation and anabolism tend to be joined, and there are inflammation processes in which the complement proteins must be activated during each step, BUT in relation to affecting anabolism, this is not always set in stone.Originally Posted by Grunt76
different compounds can have different effects on different tissues, and substances that reduce inflammation do not always stop anabolism. that being said, stopping mast cells, histamines, and prostaglandins aren't necessarily a bad thing- and the tetracyclic triterpenoids in cissus do exactly this- mostly d-amyrin and d-amyrone, but also 7-ene-3a,21 Beta-diol, a potent inhibitor of myeloperoxidase. myeloperoxidase is an inflammatory enzyme released by the body in response to tissue damage and it results in the subsequent release of complement proteins in the cascade process. cissus reduces myeloperoxidase, therefore causing less tissue reaction around the injury site, as well as increasing calcium uptake through damaged tissue. it also causes a rapid mobilization of of fibroblasts, chondroblasts, and osteoblasts to the injury site, competes w/ cortisol at receptor level, and increases the retention of calcium, phosphorous, collagen, and mucopolysaccharides, resulting in earlier calcification and earlier callus formation- this occurs mainly due to the carbon tetrachloride content in the herb- which also increases alkaline phosphate levels. would you like to know more?
02-12-2006, 07:42 PM
02-12-2006, 07:45 PM
Didn't forget about you bro. I ran searches too and also found nothing, so I guess it might be my herbalist friend who said something. Seeing her tomorrow morning, I'll post up then.Originally Posted by Max32
02-12-2006, 08:56 PM
02-12-2006, 10:20 PM
I do have a question USP. With the increase in calcium uptake and retention around the injured site, is there a risk of ossification of non bone tissues? As you likely know, ossification of tendons and ligaments is a fairly common occurence in the elderly as well as the atheletes with numerous, untreated injuries.
02-14-2006, 01:34 AM
Lots of you cats probably already know this stuff but here it is in print. I have outlined some of the more important traits of Cissus that pertain to us bbers and plers. Most notably the effect on earlier complete tensile strenghth..
Cissus quadrangularis contains high amount of vitamin C, carotene A, anabolic steroidal substances and calcium. These anabolic steroidal principles from Cissus quadrangularis showed a marked influence in the rate of fracture- healing by influencing early regeneration of all connective tissues of mesenchyma origin, namely the fibroblasts, the chondroblasts and osteoblasts involved in the healing and quicker mineralization of the callus. It has greater impact on osteoblastic proliferation than other cellular responses.
Cissus quadrangularis causes less amount of tissue reaction in the fractured region leading to optimum decalcification in the early stage with minimum of callus formation. Hence deposition of calcium is just enough to join the two broken segments of bone so that it’s remodeling takes much faster. This early completion of calcification process and earlier remodeling phenomenon lead to early recovery of Cissus treated animals. Cissus is also shown to cause early gain in the tensile strength of fractured bones of about 90 per cent of its normal strength at the end of 6 week. Cissus quadrangularis builds up the chemical composition of the fractured bone namely its mucopolysaccharides, collagen, calcium, phosphorus and others as well as its functional efficiency. Mucopolysaccharides play an important role in the healing by supplying raw materials for repairs. Therefore it seems that in the early period of bone fracture healing the greater the accumulation of these materials more rapid will be the rate of healing. Rapid the utilization of these raw materials earlier will be completion of healing process. Cissus quadrangualris not only causes the greater accumulation of mucopolysaccharides but also an earlier disappearance of mucopolysaccharides from the fractured area, associated with the earlier calcification and firmer callus formation.
In clinical trials Cissus quadrangularis as per radiological and clinical observations has been found to cause considerable reduction in the healing time of fractures by 55-33 percent. In few of the treated cases, although radiologically only, an early callus formation was observed but clinically the symptoms of fracture such as pain, tenderness, and swelling were significantly absent.
Cissus quadrangularis is shown to neutralize the anti-anabolic effect of steroids like cortisone in healing of fractures. Antianabolic effects of cortisone include inhibition of tissue regeneration and repair, also retarding formation of the specific skeletal structures. In such conditions even if the cartilage tissue is produced, its maturation and ultimate bone replacement do not take place in the normal pattern. It has main inhibitory action on fibroblasts and mast cells, which produce mucopolysaccharides of connective tissue. There have been reports that continuous intake of corticosteroids induces osteoporosis and pseudofractures in the bone.
Imbalance in the activities of osteoclasts (cells responsible for bone loss) and osteoblasts (cells responsible for bone formation) may lead to osteoporosis and fractures in postmenopausal women. In osteoporosis, the bones begin to deteriorate due to calcium deficiency as a result of the body's efficiency in maintaining mineral balance in the blood at the expense of bone integrity. During menopause the decrease in hormones affects the body's ability to maintain calcium levels resulting in an increased loss of minerals from the bones. Postmenopausal women are at particular risk to osteoporosis because the loss of estrogen associated with the menopause leads to bone loss of much greater magnitude than one would expect on the basis of age alone. Cissus quadrangularis with significant ability to inhibit antianabolic effects and bone fracture healing effects is likely to exert some beneficial effects on recovery of bone mineral density in postmenopausal osteoporosis.
Systemic use of Cissus quadrangularis in rats caused complete restoration of normal composition of bone after fracture in 4 weeks while the controls required six weeks. Thus there was a shortening of about two weeks in the bone healing duration. The total weight of the fractured bone also came down towards normal much earlier than the controls indicating quickest bone remodeling. The dogs’ examination of the specimen of fractured bone revealed at a less tissue reaction around the fractured area of the treatment animals than that of the controls. All the sequence of events namely fibroblastic phase (first week) collagen phase (second week) and osteochondroital phase (third and fourth weeks) were hastened by about 10 to 14 days in the treated group. This hastening in the fracture healing is attributed to the stimulation of all the cells of mesenchyma origin, namely the fibroblasts, the chondroblasts and osteoblasts by Cissus quadrangularis. It has greater impact on osteoblastic proliferation than other cellular responses. In both the models the mucopolysaccharide and collagen levels of the bones in the treated group came down to normal at the end of only four weeks while the controls required 6 weeks, as confirmed with histological and histochemical observations.24
Radioactive calcium (Ca45) studies indicated that Cissus quadrangularis causes less lowering of Ca45 uptake in the treated animals while in the control animals there was a greater decrease in the Ca45 uptake in the first week followed by a gradual increase in the subsequent weeks which reached its maximum in the 4th week. The Ca45 uptake in the treated group came to normal at the end of 5th week as compared to 6-8 weeks in controls. Thus it is concluded that Cissus quadrangularis causes less amount of tissue reaction in the fractured region leading to optimum decalcification in the early stage with minimum of callus formation. Hence deposition of calcium is just enough to join the two broken segments of bone so that it’s remodeling takes much faster in the treated group as compared with controls. This early completion of calcification process and earlier remodeling phenomenon lead to early recovery of animals. The tensile strength studies indicated much early gain in the tensile strength in Cissus quadrangularis treated group leading to 90 per cent of gain of its normal strength at the end of 6 week in comparison to 60 per sent of gain in strength in the controls. Thus Cissus quadrangularis builds up the chemical composition of the fractured bone namely its mucopolysaccharides, collagen, calcium, phosphorus and others as well as its functional efficiency. 25
Healing of the fractured bone is delayed considerably by the administration of cortisone. The periosteal reaction is reduced and the amount and density of callus is lowered. The mortality rate of the treated subjects is very high due to severe body wasting, atrophy of muscles and gastric perforation. Cissus quadrangularis treatment in these cortisone treated rabbits caused a significant increase in mucopolysaccharides level and also caused proliferation of osteoblastic, chondroblastic and cartilage proliferation. It also led to increased mineralization in the callus. Thus the parenteral administration of the total extract of Cissus quadrangularis not only neutralizes the anti-anabolic effect of cortisone in healing of fractures but also enhances the mineralization of the callus. This effect was much greater than that of anabolic hormone durabolin a drug of choice for the neutralization of cortisone possibly due to its vitamin contents.26
A clinical study was planned to evaluate the effect of the Cissus quadrangularis in the healing of fractures. All of the sixteen patients recruited with various types of fractures were treated with external application of the paste prepared from the herb Cissus quadrangularis. This treatment was given in addition to the standard treatment of fractures, e.g. complete immobilization. As per radiological observations the results were excellent in 6 cases with the 40% reduction in the healing time, good in 8 cases with 53% reduction in the healing time and poor in 1 case with 7% reduction in healing time. Clinically in about 80% of the cases excellent results were observed and in the remaining 14% of the cases the results were good. Only in one case there was no demonstrable effect. In few of the treated cases although radiologically only an early callus formation was observed but clinically the symptoms of fracture such as pain, tenderness, and swelling were significantly absent. These cases could use their limb without fear of pain owing to the confidence they have gained from the absence of clinical symptoms. It was also observed that the injured bones surrounded by muscles showed a greater beneficial effect of this herb than those that are subcutaneous. It was hypothesized that Cissus quadrangularis helps in the earlier formation of collagen fibres leading to earlier calcification and callus formation.27
The Cissus quadrangularis plant contains high amount of vitamin C, carotene A, anabolic steroidal substance and calcium. As analyzed by Murthy & Sheshadri in 1939, Cissus quadrangularis contained ascorbic acid 479 mg, and carotene 267 units per 100g of freshly prepared paste in addition to calcium oxalate. The Cissus quadrangularis stem contains two asymmetric tetracyclic triterpenoids, onocer-7-ene-3µ,21ß-diol (C30H52O2, mp 200-202° and onocer-7-ene-3 ß,21µ-diol (C30H52O2, m p 233-34° and two steroidal principles I (C27H45O, m p 249-52° and II (C23H41O, m p 136-38°. Presence of ß-sitosterol, d-amyrin and d-amyrone is also reported. 6,7,8,9
The aerial parts of Cissus quadrangularis is found to contain a new asymmetric tetracyclic triterpenoid, 7-oxo-onocer-8-ene-3ß, 21-diol (C30H50O3, mp 235-237°C), seven new compounds viz., 4-hydroxy-2-methyl-tricos-2-en-22-one, 9-methyl-octadec-9-ene, heptadecyl octadecanoate, icosanyl icosanoate, 31-methyl-tritriacontan-1-ol, 7-hydroxy-20-oxo-docosanyl cyclohexane, 31-methyl tritiacontanoic acid along with taraxeryl acetate, friedelan-3-one, taraxerol and iso-pentacosanoic acid have been isolated from Cissus quadrangularis.
02-14-2006, 01:36 AM
pretty good question bio- the bone remodeling cycle will usually prevent this by an increase in parathyroid activity (which recycles excessive calcium), i looked in the literature and i could not find anything that would support osteogenesis of non-bony tissue in healthy populations, BUT i am not sure about the elderly - one of the main mechanisms of action for cissus is myeloperoxidase inhibition, and myeloperoxidase is generally most active immediately after some type of injurious behavior to bone and/or connective tissue- and this reduction in myeloperoxidase activity is followed by a more rapid formation of the fibrocartilaginous and bony calluses, but normally only in the injured area, and this does not mean the process will necessarily overtake nearby healthy bone or tendon- an injured bone/tendon wil incur different disease processes than a healthy one- they tend to mobilize what they need to heal, and discard what they don't- just the way bone remodeling and repair goesOriginally Posted by bioman
02-14-2006, 01:54 AM
06-12-2006, 05:10 AM
Bumping a slightly dated thread, I find this protocol intriguing. Does anyone else have any thoughts on the value of alternating Cissus and Celadrin every month or two? And how would you work other joint supps (Glucosomine, Chondroitin, MSM, Devil's Claw) into the mix? In other words, what would be the ultimate, life-long joint supp stack? And would it change on-cycle as opposed to off-cycle?Originally Posted by ersatz
(PS: Has anyone tried that Hyaluronic Acid stuff?)
06-12-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by ImJ2x
At your age, I definitely think HA would be a great idea to add in if money allows.
I still rotate Omega Flex and bulk Cissus (1-2 on, 1-2 off) unless I know my exact source of pain.
06-13-2006, 06:05 AM
"At my age..." I've still got all my hair, a 23 year-old girlfriend :chick: and sick moves on the dance floor (if you get a few drinks in me). You young whipper-snappers may have the world by the balls, but my car's paid off, LOL.
I am considering the HLA, as a preventative measure (gotta keep on dancin'). I'm just not sure whether to stack it all at once, or alternate the various compounds to keep my joints guessing. On-cycle I'm thinking it's probably best to take them all.
11-16-2006, 09:21 AM
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