Avant Labs Lipoderm
- 11-03-2005, 05:08 PM
- 11-03-2005, 05:36 PM
I'll give "Y" ,with additional Yohimbine that I added, a somewhat positive rating. My response to it seemed to be some reduction in my love handles over what I would have gotten without it, some but not major. It's not like I'm the Michelin Man anyway, Absolved would have probably been a better product for me being fairly lean.
- 11-03-2005, 05:59 PM
Rogue is on to something here.
When considering the feedback on it, remember that some people don't respond very well to it because they have the kind of fat, VAT (visceral adipose tissue), that the Lipoderms aren't really designed to help take care of.
For VAT, Ab-Solved is the best choice, if you can still find it.
As far as feedback goes, there's one review on this site in the Feedback and Reviews forum. You can find more on our site and at Bulk Nutrition.
11-03-2005, 06:17 PM
Ok. Let me be all non-research-y and lazy for a minute and just ask; how do you determine, or what are the characteristics, of the different 'kinds' of fat?
Also... would still like to hear feedback about the Lipoderm products and now, Ab-Solved as well.
11-03-2005, 06:26 PM
SAT is the fat that wiggles and jiggles on the outside, that's what the Lipos are made for, and VAT is the organ fat beneath the surface that causes distension, that's what Absolved goes after.
I believe both products get generally positive reviews, it's one of those maybe it might work, worth a try type things.
11-03-2005, 06:39 PM
I tried Lipoderm-Ultra in July. Followed directions. Was just below maintenance kcals, because I attempted to adjust my fat intake to compensate for utilized endogenous stores. No reduction of "handles" as evidenced by no changes in waist size. Not knocking the product, it just didn't work well for me. I guess I am a non-responder.
edit: shootmeagain, subcutaneous adipose tissue(SAT) is more difficult to access for energy needs than visceral adipose tissue(VAT)
Last edited by jonny21; 11-03-2005 at 09:54 PM.
11-03-2005, 08:36 PM
11-03-2005, 09:20 PM
Fantastic. I'm game to try it out for myself, though I must admit I'm still skeptical.
One question remains: I know the difference in the Lipoderm products and Ab-Solved... and I recognize that Lipoderm is what I'm after... but what is the real difference between Lipoderm-Y and Lipoderm Ultra? (Besides $10)
It seems, from what I read, that Ultra is the newer form, but most of the positive feedback in those links and elsewhere online seems to pertain to the 'Y' version.
11-03-2005, 09:32 PM
Lipo-Ultra contains more than the yohimbine HCl and caffeine that makes up Lipo-Y. In addition to those two, Lipo-Ultra contains octopamine HCl, SesaThin, synephrine, acetyl-L-carnitine, ascorbyl palmitate, and lecithin.
11-03-2005, 09:36 PM
BTW, just so you know, the higher your bodyfat, the less you'll be able to see the results of the Lipos. That doesn't mean it's not helping, it just means it won't be as apparent to you visually.
You're able to see the effects better when you're already fairly lean and you're just trying to get rid of those troubled abs that don't want to go away no matter what you do. Or those troubled glutes, thighs, whatever the case may be.
11-05-2005, 02:06 AM
the few extra dollars for the Ultra is definitely worth it, from my experience.
11-05-2005, 08:01 AM
Not to worry. I won't expect Lipoderm to help me see my abs anytime soon. If it helps drop my BF% over time then I'll be pleased.Originally Posted by Sir Savage
Thanks for the contributing thoughts and info Rogue Drone, jonny, and prolangtum. Much appreciated!
11-05-2005, 05:11 PM
"The quick and easy test on which you need is to stand side ways in the mirror, now relax. Dont try to stand up super straight. Look at where your abs meet your pec's in your profile. if they stick out then absolved is for you. if they are perfectly flat or even concave Lipoderm is for you."
11-05-2005, 07:22 PM
All good things come at a cost, and if you want it to work great, add capsaicin. It hurts like a bitch, but it works like one too.
11-05-2005, 08:29 PM
I've seen a few references to using capsaicin, and I understand where the hurt aspect comes in, but what is the mechanism by which this is supposed to contribute to the process? That is, why does adding it make it better?
Also, do you just buy capsaicin cream from the drugstore for this purpose or do you get some other form?
11-06-2005, 12:44 AM
You can buy it at Wal-mart.. Get the HP because its the .1 % instead of the .035%. Its main purpose is to help with arthritis sufferers (look in the pain relief section). It burns, but in a kinky I want Abs kind of way.
11-06-2005, 05:13 AM
I use "pure cap" from www.hotsauceworld.com I can't remember precisely why, but I believe it acts on the vanillin receptor, and works through decreased effects of insulin in the fat cell. That could all be way off, as I read about it long ago. It really does burn, and I actually prefer cardio (and I hate cardio)...so I only reccomend it if time is of the essence.
11-06-2005, 08:26 AM
Kick it Up a NotchOriginally Posted by shootmeagain
How to Enhance Your Lipoderm for Greater Fat Loss
Lipoderm-Ultra and Lipoderm-ODB have finally been made available for public consumption. Feedback is starting to mount and both products seem to be a significant improvement over the original version. Truly, Par Deus deserves a hardy pat on the back as he did a marvelous job; these are two killer products in their own right. However, I would like to take some time in this issue of Mind and Muscle to discuss how we can improve these products even further.
There is one very intriguing way in which we can enhance Lipoderm’s efficacy. Namely, I want to talk about reducing adipose tissue insulin sensitivity. I would like to make real Lyle McDonald’s ultimate dream of insulin resistant fat tissue that does not negatively affect muscle tissue. Theoretically, this should be possible via Lipoderm’s localized delivery vehicle. Often in bodybuilding literature we discuss things that improve one’s insulin sensitivity. However, it is pretty rare that we converse on how we might induce insulin insensitivity. The problem is even more complicated if we want to keep the effect as localized as is physically possible.
What I would like to present to you is a theory on how we might accomplish this task. I believe I have an excellent solution, however to my knowledge I am currently the only one who has tested my theory. Because of this, my results may not be typical nor what is normal. So, take the following information with a grain of salt. Though, I suggest you try my approach, as my results may very well be what are typical. Those of you who do try my concoction, please take the time to post your results—good or bad—on the Avant Labs forum so that everyone can benefit from your experience. So, without further adieu let’s get to the meat of this discussion….
There is indeed a way to induce localized insulin resistance. The key compound involved is Calcitonin Gene Related Peptide or CGRP for short. CGRP is an interesting little molecule that is released from the sympathetic nervous system. It tends to cause calcium depletion from cells. Interestingly, one of CGRP’s side effects when released in large amounts happens to be insulin resistance. In fact, it has been proposed that CGRP is one of the prime factors responsible for inducing the small amounts of insulin resistance seen in smokers. People who have smoked for several years generally exhibit a very mild insulin insensitivity that resembles a pre-diabetic state, though it seldom develops into real diabetes unless one is genetically prone. This mild insulin resistance generally disappears if the subject quits smoking. It just so happens that nicotine causes a large release of CGRP through interaction with the nerves that compose the sympathetic nervous system. So, nicotine is one way of eliciting localized insulin resistance. I will talk more about that later. Instead I would like to move on to the compound that I think holds more promise: namely, Capsaicin.
Capsaicin is the stuff in peppers that gives them their hot taste. Of interest here is that, when nerves are exposed to capsaicin, they release a very large amount of CGRP. Of course, too much CGRP and you can actually damage the nerve permanently. Curiously, by permanently damaging capsaicin-sensitive nerves, rats and mice actually get leaner. For example, in one study researchers took mice and desensitized them to capsaicin by giving them a very large dose of the compound at the age of 1.5 months. They then compared those mice with matched controls at one year of age. What they found was that that the desensitized mice had 9% less epididymal and 30 % less retroperitoneal fat than the controls. This was due to a reduction in the number of fat cells. The authors proposed that by desensitizing the capsaicin-sensitive neurons they attenuated the normal age-associated increase in CGRP activity and thus promoted whole body insulin insensitivity.
Now it’s entirely questionable if humans would have a similar reaction, as rats and mice use their capsaicin-sensitive neurons to regulate thermogenesis in their brown fat tissue. So, we could be witnessing some kind of interaction with the brown fat thermogenesis system, which in turn causes this leanness. Now, much can be said about capsaicin as a fat loss aid at least in rats. But we are kind of getting off track.
What we really want to do for our purposes is provide a small dose of capsaicin to the nerve tissue that surrounds our subcutaneous adipose tissue. This way CGRP is released in this region resulting in localized insulin resistance, which should enhance fat loss from the targeted area. Furthermore CGRP is one of the most potent—if not the most potent –vasodilator naturally produced by the human body. So, it should substantially increase blood flow to the area, allowing for removal of the fatty acids that are released by Lipoderm’s lipolytic ingredients.
Now back to nicotine. Not only does nicotine also cause the release of CGRP, it does so synergistically with capsaicin. In fact it seems that nicotine may sensitize the vanilloid receptors that capsaicin binds to (Yes that’s vanilloid as in vanilla; capsaicin and vanilla are very close cousins at the molecular level). Nicotine is of course mildly lipolytic in its own right, which is an added benefit. In short I propose the addition of nicotine and capsaicin to the Lipoderm formula of your choice for enhanced fat reduction.
You may be wondering why this was not included in the formula if it’s so potent. Well there is one downside and let me tell you it’s a big one: that downside is pain. I have tried this concoction and I will say it is not even remotely pleasant. It induces a severe burning sensation that subsides into a mild burning/numbness that can be felt fairly deeply in the tissue. However, if you are willing to put up with the pain you will be rewarded with accelerated fat loss. Personally I tried this with the original Lipoderm formula and felt the results were at least an order of magnitude better than what I experienced with Lipoderm alone. That said, many people have complained about how Lipoderm-Y feels on their skin. If you were one of those individuals then you do not want to try this concoction. If however you are feeling brave, then I highly recommend you give it a shot. For me, the results were worth the pain. The addition of capsaicin and nicotine allowed me to burn some very stubborn fat right below my navel that I had never previously succeeded in dieting away.
I will leave it to the reader to figure out how to obtain nicotine or capsaicin. I will however mention that capsaicin is used in many over-the-counter arthritis creams. There is one arthritis medication in particular that is a liquid and not a cream that contains little more than alcohol, menthol, and capsaicin. This is a perfect choice as menthol is one of the penetration enhancers used in the original Lipoderm formula. Nicotine is available in patches or crushable lozenges these days so it should not be too hard to come up with a way to add that as well.
Well I hope the more adventurous of you out there give this a try. Should you do so, please do give your feedback in the Avant Labs forums, as I would really enjoy hearing about your successes or failures. Just remember to avoid applying this on any sensitive area during your first treatment. As always, I will be available in the Avant Labs forums to answer any questions you might have.
11-06-2005, 08:46 AM
11-06-2005, 02:57 PM
11-06-2005, 03:01 PM
Prog - where do you get nicotine powder?
I've got some Lipo-Y that I added a few grams of caffiene and some clenbuterol.
I'm itching to give it a run soon.
11-07-2005, 12:44 AM
you probaly wont find powdered nicotine anywhere. it is discussed in the thread about either using a patch near the area, or getting some nictone out of lozenges.
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