Who Wastes Money on Glutamine?

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  1. Originally posted by Nelson
    YJ the anti-glutaminist
    LOL.

    YJ you make a good argument for not using supplemental glutamine and backing it up with studies,certainly giving everyone something to consider but I tend to agree with Benz in that you can feel a real world difference in muscle recovery with heavy doses of glutamine supplementation(20grams and up).

    No I don't have any science to back this up and haven't used glutamine in 2 years mainly due to the price tag but I'm convinced there is more to glutamine than the placebo effect.


  2. while i agree with YJ in that buying glutamine is a complete waste, i must say that i feel glutamine has a very positive impact on recovery.. go over to animal's forum and talk to doggcrapp about that one.. HOWEVER, as YJ said glutamine can be found in most protein dense foods, also if your taking something like optimum's pro complex formula it has 5 g of glutamine per serving, and their regular complex has 2.5 g, two scoops of those a day as well as a good protein dense diet should give you plenty of glutamine to aide in your recovery, as far as cell volume goes hell creatine can do that...
    PharmD
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  3. Originally posted by John Benz

    I am glad you noticed this as the only one of your articles that even mentions bodybuilders is # 2, and they state nothing conclusive, but that the data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men. So what? No one takes it to increase performance OR increase carbohydrate metabolism or to boost the auto-immune system, but to prevent soft tissue injury. Since none of your studies has any relevance as pertains to the main use of glutamine in the bodybuilding community, that is, muscle tissue recovery, and only one even mentions weight lifters at all, the burden of proof is still on your shoulders. I find glutamine to be an important supp for muscle recovery, far more than mere placebo effect (nice try though)

    Most of the vets here see a real world difference in just protein vs protein+ glutamine.


    Which one of your studies mentions bodybuilders? None since studies and documents pro glutamine pertaining to bodybuilders do not exist. I was discussing this with Nandi at CEM and he agrees that an AIDS patient, terminally ill individual and a bodybuilder, novice or competitor, are in no way comparable in regards to immune systems.

    jboldman, also a mod at CEM, prodived me with these references:


    Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1998 Apr;77(5):434-8 Related Articles, Links
    The effects of high-intensity intermittent exercise on the plasma concentrations of glutamine and organic acids.
    Walsh NP, Blannin AK, Clark AM, Cook L, Robson PJ, Gleeson M.

    Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997 Apr;29(4):474-81 Related Articles, Links
    Dietary L-glutamine does not improve lymphocyte metabolism or function in exercise-trained rats.
    Shewchuk LD, Baracos VE, Field CJ

    *If you look these up it shows that basal glutamine levels in weight training athletes, and that supplementing with oral glutamine showed NO positive effects on immune recovery.

    Some more work by Nandi

    The body's immune system is very finely tuned so that if you tip it a little bit one way or the other, problems can arise. For instance, post-exercise, a little inflammation is necessary to promote growth. If you block inflammation, by for instance blocking prostaglandin production with antiinflammatories, post exercise growth is blunted. Obviously excessive inflammation is bad, as it too inhibits recovery and leads to chronic injury.

    Nobody knows really why glutamine helps recovery in critically ill patients (especially when given IV in huge doses) but does not do anything in normal people. But it is probably related to the fact that in critical illness, glutamine goes from being a nonessential amino acid to an essential one (1). Anyone except a critically ill patient makes adequate glutamine so supplementation does nothing.

    One key immune cytokine produced by exercise is IL-6. This is a proinflammatory cytokine that is believed to act to regulate glucose availability during and immediately after exercise. When carbohydrates are ingested prior to exercise, levels of IL-6 are lower during and after exercise. In the carbohydrate depleted state, IL-6 is high during exercise. So in some way IL-6 acts as a carbohydrate status sensor (2).

    Carbohydrate ingestion prior to, during and after exercise improves performance and recovery (3). One reason may be that as we saw, high carb levels suppress IL-6. IL-6 is considered a catabolic cytokine because because if lowers IGF-1 levels (4,5)

    So we see that exercise in a carb depleted state leads to high levels of IL-6, which suppresses growth. What is the glutamine connection? During exercise glutamine is lowered and IL-6 is increased. When glutamine is given during and after exercise, it INCREASES the levels of the bad cytokine IL-6. (6). So not only is glutamine supplementation unnecessary in all but the critically ill, it could have a negative impact on normal exercising humans by elevating IL-6 levels. This could upset the balance between pro and antiinflammatory immune cytokines released during exercise.

    (1) Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care 2003 Mar;6(2):217-22

    Role of L-glutamine in critical illness: new insights.

    Kelly D, Wischmeyer PE.


    (2) J Physiol 2003 Jan 1;546(Pt 1):299-305

    The effect of graded exercise on IL-6 release and glucose uptake in human skeletal muscle.

    Helge JW, Stallknecht B, Pedersen BK, Galbo H, Kiens B, Richter EA


    (3) J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):187-96

    Carbohydrate supplementation and resistance training.

    Haff GG, Lehmkuhl MJ, McCoy LB, Stone MH.


    (4) Horm Res 2002;58 Suppl 1:24-7

    Role of interleukin-6 in growth failure: an animal model.

    De Benedetti F, Meazza C, Martini A

    (5) Pediatrics 2002 Oct;110(4):681-9

    Effect of intense exercise on inflammatory cytokines and growth mediators in adolescent boys.

    Nemet D, Oh Y, Kim HS, Hill M, Cooper DM.

    (6) J Appl Physiol 2003 Feb 28; [epub ahead of print]

    Glutamine supplementation further enhances exercise-induced plasma IL-6.

    Hiscock NJ, Petersen EW, Krzywkowski K, Boza J, Halkjaer-Kristensen J, Pedersen BK.

    **In all fairness, I did find around 30 peer review studies that supported glutamine supplementation (not all, but a few) for marathon runners, burn victims, etc. Well, neither of these apply to me and the other million bodybuilders out there. In the remaning glutamine peer reviews, in which I read all of them, there were vague reliance on glutamine, much too vague and too many variables to be published in a journal, but all had good points, pro glutamine. Im putting together a large, full, detailed, unbiased article on the ineffectiveness of glutamine supplementation. With the help of some CEM mods, and others this should be done shortly. This will not be an article slamming glutamine, it will be professionally written, downgrading each positive effect of glutamine. I have read enough to establish that glutamine has its purposes in soft tissue repair, but the amount that had to be consumed was much more than I, and most people could afford.

    As far as the burden of proof on myself, not hardly. I have busted my ass researching, etc. to prove glutamine useless, something you have no done for pro glutamine. I do agree with you however that everything found on pubmed isnt golden, you have to dig deeper and find more background on it.

    Like everyone said above and like I keep pounding in the ground, glutamine is still very much mysterious, real world experience is great but the same results will not be equal for everyone. Whats good for one person, is not good for everyone. My goal is to disspell accessory supplementation of glutamine. I will be researching several popular protein powders and listing their glutamine contents, etc. To show what I already know, and thats glutamine does nothing protein powder doesnt.

    I will be back shortly with a study (hopefully 2) that shows glutamine ay actually be suppressive of IGF-1 in the end (these are brand new).

  4. It's always interesting to me that the endurance athletes seem to benefit from many things that non-enduracne athletes have only little or no benefit from the same supplement.

  5. Originally posted by windwords7
    It's always interesting to me that the endurance athletes seem to benefit from many things that non-enduracne athletes have only little or no benefit from the same supplement.
    Agreed. This is something else I have been talking with Nandi about. What is the relationship between say a middle aged man who runs 10 miles a day and does marathon work to an average, middle aged man who does moderate to heavy weight training 4-5 days a week. I dont think they're comparable for a number of reasons, we're working on tangent proof though, so it may be awhile.
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  6. Ok, last glutamine post until I pull everything together.

    Im trying to be as unbiased about this as I can. This is no longer in my best interest, I would really like to get to the bottom of it. So I am reading anti-glutamine studies/articles, and pro glutamine articles/studies/abstracts, etc. To understand all of this.

    The glutamine abstracts which are performed on marathon runners are bunk, as related to the immune function of glutamine. The general dietary recall of marathon runners follows a 70/15/15 Pro/carbs/fat respectivly. Marathon runners tend to carb load 2-3 days before a run. Protein intake is way down. If you think about it, marathon runners base their whole eitiology behind fuel and endurance. How many fat or heavy marathon runners do you see? None. They rely on fat at first, and then CHO. Its common knowledge in the nutrition world that protein is not ideal as a fuel source. So extra glutamine supplementation would indeed be needed for those dedicated to the sport.

    Other variables like training enviroment come into play. Running outside in the cold at times is not good for your immune system. Not to say gyms are sanitary, but you get what Im saying.

    Obviously a bodybuilders diet is much different from that of a marathon runner. Our protein intake is likely 3 times or more of a marathon runner, as well as out fat intake. Carbs more than likely lower. Bodybuilders just eat more, plain and simple. This means more foods like milk, cottage cheese, beans, and several other glutamine dense whole foods each day!. Not only that, but we also consume at least 1, possibly 2 or 3 or more protein shakes a day. Like I have said 100 times, if you have a decent protein powder, its glutamine contents are high. So naturally, without extra supplementation, you're going...... how much glutamine? Enough? I would assume, (only my opinion as I didnt poll everyone) that you may be getting too much.

    Ok, lets talk about what the main intent of glutamine's use is. Cutting. To preserve that lean muscle mass you put on while bulking. Is it common knowledge that when cutting, protein uptake is increased quite a bit? I understand people being to avoid milk for its lactose properties, so maybe you're going to be difficient in glutamine while cutting out milk? I dont think so. If you're a 200lbs bodybuilder, you're going to need around 250+ grams of protein when cutting. You're going to get a significant amount of glutamine from just that protein. Can I say for sure you will get your daily 20grams? Nope. But I would assume, if you know what you're doing, you will achieve more than that.

    So, what about the megadoses of glutamine these guys take? Well just as protein breaks down, to amino acids it ca nbe secreted or can convert to glucose via the Cory Cycle. So especially in a bulking situtaion, if you're consuming large or moderate amounts of glutamine, oh boy. Even when cutting....... the object is to lower glucose levels to get to fat stores. If you have converting amino acids to glucose, thats even more glucose you must deplete before getting to the fat......

    More on all this later.

  7. Originally posted by John Benz

    I am glad you noticed this as the only one of your articles that even mentions bodybuilders is # 2, and they state nothing conclusive, but that the data ..

    Oh, you should probably check that again, there's actually 4 not 1 abstract on weight training/resistance athletes and another 2 on athletes.

  8. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Which one of your studies mentions bodybuilders? None since studies and documents pro glutamine pertaining to bodybuilders do not exist. I was discussing this with Nandi at CEM and he agrees that an AIDS patient, terminally ill individual and a bodybuilder, novice or competitor, are in no way comparable in regards to immune systems.
    When no studies exist, you have to rely on personal experience and the real world experiences of people who have gotten results. The following 3 people have certainly never heard of Nandi12, although their names are quite familiar to him. They are the experts in this field, not some grad student doing a study on lab rats, aids patients, or young people, and their credentials are above repute. Dr. Eric Serrano is considered by many as one of the most knowledgeable people in the world of bodybuilding. This is what they have to say....

    This information comes from Milos Sarcev's message boards.
    The question posted on the boards went like this:

    I have noticed that most of professional bodybuilders claim that they regularly use glutamine. What is so special about this nonessential amino acid? After all body can synthesize glutamine (if there is a need) from other amino acids.

    As we all know, Milos is a bodybuilding genius. There's nothing that he doesn't know about nutrition, supplements, or exercising.

    Anyway, here's HIS answer to the question:

    "Glutamine is unambiguously one of the most popular supplements among the
    bodybuilders and competitive athletes. Just to name a few benefits -glutamine has
    anabolic activity (increase synthesis of muscle protein), anticatabolic activity (decrease muscle protein breakdown), lipolytic activity (as it increases secretion of "fat burning" growth hormone), increases synthesis of glycogen and ATP, decreases buildup of fatigue substances -lactate and ammonia, boost immune system and free testosterone levels.

    Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in our body and our muscle tissue. High
    intensity weight training and any other highly stressful condition depletes Glutamine
    stores and increases the need for the Glutamine production. Unfortunately even though our body can synthesize this amino acid from the other amino acids (glutamic acid, isoleucin and valine) it appears that body's ability to produce Glutamine doesn't
    replenishes what was lost during intense training or stress.

    Many athletes have used it and most commonly they have noticed increased ability to recover from their workouts. Bodybuilders especially can attest for many of glutamine's powerful muscle building and cell volumazing effects. I would suggest you to give Glutamine honest try. Don't use it sporadically but make a
    habit to take 5grams a day immediately after the workout. After the first week start
    increasing the dosage by 2-3grams until you reach at least 20 grams per day (I have
    athletes that take up to 40 grams a day with great results).

    Some bodybuilders on their low carbohydrate diets also take excess amount of Glutamine preferring to get glucose from non-carbohydrate source (Glutamine can be converted into glucose by glyconeogenesis process). This is a common practice among the competitive bodybuilders and even though it make some sense I believe that Glutamine is to valuable (and expensive) to be wasted and converted into highly available (and extremely inexpensive) simple sugar -glucose. Finally -don't confuse unessential with unimportant. Essential amino acids got that name as our body's can not produce them and we have to intake them through food or supplements. " -Milos Sarcev

  9. In the old days, whenever a doctor said something—anything—it was pretty much taken as gospel. After all, they're all incredibly bright, they all pull down some serious cash, and, well, they're doctors.

    Of course, those of us in our little field of kamikaze, theoretical, self-experimental bodybuilding have a different take on most physicians. How so? Well, most of us run away screaming when someone flashes his or her MD credentials. You can't blame us, though. Traditional medical education has taught doctors that steroids are a poison on par with strychnine; that any amount of protein greater than the RDA will practically cause your kidneys to fall out; and that creatine needs further research (even though there are hundreds, if not thousands, of studies supporting its use).

    Happily, there are always exceptions. Nowadays, there are doctors who are elbow-deep in the area of bodybuilding and physique augmentation. And man, when you find someone like that, you've really got something.

    Dr. Eric Serrano is one of these enlightened physicians. In fact, Serrano is so hip on supplements that more often than not, he prescribes over-the-counter supplements to his patients in lieu of drugs. He also conducts private studies on just about any new supplement that comes down the pike. Of course, he also has a deep-rooted personal interest in new supplements because he's a competitive power lifter who most recently set a record in a Midwest tri-state meet for total weight.

    Serrano currently runs a private clinic in Columbus, Ohio, along with teaching classes at Ohio State's medical school. Although we did this interview over the phone, we just know he's sitting there in an extra-large, white lab coat with the sleeves torn off, in an office that has as many bench presses as it has EKG monitors..

    Dr. Eric Serrano on Glutamine:

    Glutamine has made a big difference in my patients, especially their immune systems, and glutamine gets rid of colds; it helps your joints; and it can increase your strength in one day. People will ask me where I'm getting this information from, but I've been playing with 11 patients with different dosages. Here's what I've come up with: you need .35 grams per kilogram of body weight. And you take it in one dose an hour before a workout. Tell me what happens during your workout. I don't care what type of workout it is.

    I know that we chemistry people say it does this or it does that, but something else is going on. I think there are two mechanisms. For one thing, I think it's an excellent source of energy because the body can break it down to glutamic acid, which is kind of a sugar [although he wouldn't come right out and say it, Dr. Serrano intimated that the glutamic acid may serve as a powerful energy substrate, thereby increasing work capacity]. Number two, I have found out, and this is very important, glutamine is a marker of overtraining. If I take people, and I have them write down their workouts, and if their glutamic acid/glutamine ratio is over 10 to one, that person was invariably getting sick or developing soreness, or their performance was going down. I will tell you, papers are going to come out on it, because it's very interesting how this works. If the ratio is less than 10 to 1, you're overtraining. If I give you oral glutamine, you'll prevent overtraining. I have some theories about how it works, but I don't want to talk about them yet…if it works that way, great, but I don't want to give people the wrong idea.

    Because the cost is so high, I wouldn't take it every day. I might take a baseline dosage of 2 to 5 grams a day to keep my levels high, but if I'm going through an intensity phase or accumulation phase, like Charles Poliquin calls them, I will take a larger dosage—.35 grams (times body weight in kilograms) and divide it into two dosages; in the morning, an hour before the workout, and the other half before bedtime to preserve muscle while I'm sleeping.

  10. Originally posted by John Benz

    When no studies exist, you have to rely on personal experience and the real world experiences of people who have gotten results.
    Real world 'experience' will never replace hard science. The reasons these do not exist, is because there are none. No one can run a study on bodybuilders and find glutamine supplementation useful.

    The following 3 people have certainly never heard of Nandi12, although their names are quite familiar to him. They are the experts in this field, not some grad student doing a study on lab rats, aids patients, or young people, and their credentials are above repute. Dr. Eric Serrano is considered by many as one of the most knowledgeable people in the world of bodybuilding. This is what they have to say....
    Wow, Im shocked. Nandi is by no means a grad student. He has an MS yes and writes for several boards and journals I believe. To down play his education like that is pretty disrespectful. I would take his opinion over the kind of Synthol, Milos. Who needs glutamine when you have synthol? Nandi is by far in the top 5 of most intelligent members on all of the boards. You have been to CEM, you know what he does over there. Anyone who writes for T-Mag is simply confused. I cant believe someone treats T-Mag like the bible. Its all junk. One week they write an article and publish it on the amazing feats of glutamine, and a week later they print another calling glutamine useless, amazing.

    This information comes from Milos Sarcev's message boards.
    The question posted on the boards went like this:
    Yes, you have posted this at least a half dozen times, I have read it, it means nothing to me. One guy's a opinion (Capt. Synthol) is laughable.


    As we all know, Milos is a bodybuilding genius.
    LMAO... Riiiiight.

    Just to name a few benefits -glutamine has
    anabolic activity (increase synthesis of muscle protein), anticatabolic activity (decrease muscle protein breakdown), lipolytic activity (as it increases secretion of "fat burning" growth hormone), increases synthesis of glycogen and ATP, decreases buildup of fatigue substances -lactate and ammonia, boost immune system and free testosterone levels.
    Any citations for these or do we just take his word for it? Because I have several abstracts done by top universities that say otherwise.

    Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in our body and our muscle tissue. High intensity weight training and any other highly stressful condition depletes Glutamine stores and increases the need for the Glutamine production.
    This still remains to be proved.

    Unfortunately even though our body can synthesize this amino acid from the other amino acids (glutamic acid, isoleucin and valine) it appears that body's ability to produce Glutamine doesn't
    replenishes what was lost during intense training or stress.

    Many athletes have used it and most commonly they have noticed increased ability to recover from their workouts. Bodybuilders especially can attest for many of glutamine's powerful muscle building and cell volumazing effects. I would suggest you to give Glutamine honest try.
    Im assuming he means marathon runners and runners in general.



    But on a lighter note John, you have inspired an idea in me. After my post cycle therapy, I am contemplating buying 300grams of Prolabs Glutamine and give it 1 last try. Like I said, Im no longer out to prove anyone wrong, I just really want to know. So my plan is to go 'all natural' just a multi, protein powder and glutamine (yes, no liver tabs) and keep a diary, reporting every Mon. & Thurs. And I will report my honest feelings, gains, etc. Sound like a good idea?

  11. Question of Strength
    The real Master Blaster reveals
    the science behind building muscle
    by Charles Poliquin

    _
    Q: What type of diet would you recommend while using your 1-6-1 training program? In general, what would you suggest for anyone whose primary goal is to build strength?

    A: In a nutshell, when interested in increasing your level of maximal strength (regardless of whether you're doing the 1-6-1 program or some other routine geared toward increasing strength), I find that supplements actually play a bigger part than diet. This, of course, is assuming that you're eating a diet that's more well-balanced than that eaten by the average guest on the Jerry Springer show.

    Additionally, diets are very individual specific, and trying to prescribe a universal strength-building diet is risky. The key thing to keep in mind, however, in eating for maximal strength gains is focus, and anything that dulls your focus should immediately be kicked out of your diet with the deftness of an Irish barkeeper throwing out an unruly drunk. Personally, I have to abstain from carbs until the workout is over, even the low glycemic index ones. Contrast that with pro bodybuilder Milos Sarcev, however, who can ingest enough pasta to save a small African nation from starvation and still have a great workout. Compounds that I have found to help increase strength:

    • Acetyl-l-carnitine, 3-7 grams per day
    • Glutamine, 30-70 grams per day
    • Branched-chain aminos/glutamine, taken while training, like Beverly International's Muscularity (800-781-3475)
    • Ribose/creatine combo, four servings per day
    • Sufficient protein, two grams per pound of bodyweight (most individuals will need to use liquid meals to achieve this target)
    • Plenty of smart fats like CLA and fish oils
    • Certain forms of tocotrienols in high dosages (they also dramatically reduce cholesterol)
    • Various herbal preparations (this goes beyond the scope of this column, I enlist the help of a naturopath trained in herbology)

    I'm not suggesting that you take all of the previous compounds at once. But I do recommend that you experiment with some of them, either alone or in combination, and find what works best for you.

  12. Originally posted by John Benz
    In the old days, whenever a doctor said something—anything—it was pretty much taken as gospel. After all, they're all incredibly bright, they all pull down some serious cash, and, well, they're doctors.

    Of course, those of us in our little field of kamikaze, theoretical, self-experimental bodybuilding have a different take on most physicians. How so? Well, most of us run away screaming when someone flashes his or her MD credentials. You can't blame us, though. Traditional medical education has taught doctors that steroids are a poison on par with strychnine; that any amount of protein greater than the RDA will practically cause your kidneys to fall out; and that creatine needs further research (even though there are hundreds, if not thousands, of studies supporting its use).

    Happily, there are always exceptions. Nowadays, there are doctors who are elbow-deep in the area of bodybuilding and physique augmentation. And man, when you find someone like that, you've really got something.
    Thats great, but someone call me when size equals intelligence. Im not doubting this guy's background and knowledge, but Nandi certainly is no push over. Not to mention he is a powerlifter, who eats and trains much differently from a bodybuilder.


    Dr. Eric Serrano on Glutamine:

    Glutamine has made a big difference in my patients, especially their immune systems, and glutamine gets rid of colds; it helps your joints; and it can increase your strength in one day.
    Wait, didnt even you state above that no one takes glutamine for its supposed boost of the immune system? This is certainly been dismissed.


    People will ask me where I'm getting this information from, but I've been playing with 11 patients with different dosages. Here's what I've come up with: you need .35 grams per kilogram of body weight. And you take it in one dose an hour before a workout. Tell me what happens during your workout. I don't care what type of workout it is.
    Im willing to try this.

    Number two, I have found out, and this is very important, glutamine is a marker of overtraining. If I take people, and I have them write down their workouts, and if their glutamic acid/glutamine ratio is over 10 to one, that person was invariably getting sick or developing soreness, or their performance was going down.
    Sorry, I just cant take his word for it. I havent taken it in years, when using adequate amounts of protein, flax oil, and liver tabs, the soreness subsides in 2-3 days. Of course, I doubt my basal glutamine levels are suppressed enough to make a difference, Im not a marathon runner.


    I will tell you, papers are going to come out on it, because it's very interesting how this works. If the ratio is less than 10 to 1, you're overtraining. If I give you oral glutamine, you'll prevent overtraining. I have some theories about how it works, but I don't want to talk about them yet…if it works that way, great, but I don't want to give people the wrong idea.
    Once again, Im interested, but Im doubting it. Were these people doing cardio? If so, what type? What was their dietary recall like? How much protein? Too many questions left unanswered.

    Because the cost is so high, I wouldn't take it every day.
    Ah geeez, now come on man. Let's be fair. The article above says it must be taken everyday until you work your way up to 20 grams. I suppose you must also keep plasma levels high or its useless? The cost is high, it has VERY low cost effectiveness. For 1 300 gram tub of glutamine, I can get 5lbs of Optimum 100% whey protein (77 servings). Not cost effective at all, for what functions it supposely serves. its not worth the $$$. Regardless of your income, its just not.


    I might take a baseline dosage of 2 to 5 grams a day to keep my levels high, but if I'm going through an intensity phase or accumulation phase, like Charles Poliquin calls them, I will take a larger dosage—.35 grams (times body weight in kilograms) and divide it into two dosages; in the morning, an hour before the workout, and the other half before bedtime to preserve muscle while I'm sleeping.

    But Milos says to make sure to take it post workout......

  13. Originally posted by John Benz
    Question of Strength
    The real Master Blaster reveals
    the science behind building muscle
    by Charles Poliquin
    Sounds like a FAQ for EAS glutamine..... where was this published? Just curious.

    This, of course, is assuming that you're eating a diet that's more well-balanced than that eaten by the average guest on the Jerry Springer show.
    Again, I dont know if he wants to be taken seriously, bu the 'cute' references to Springer, etc. make this a pretty unprofessional piece. Thats just a side not however.

    • Glutamine, 30-70 grams per day
    Oh, now its 70 grams of glutamine? Hey, thats practical.
    • Branched-chain aminos/glutamine, taken while training, like Beverly International's Muscularity (800-781-3475)
    LMAO! Oh now I see. A shameless plug for BI products. Oh god, how lame. I knew there was a motive behind the madness. Dont trust anything written by or for a supplement company, if we did, we'd all be using Liquid Creatine.

  14. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Real world 'experience' will never replace hard science. The reasons these do not exist, is because there are none. No one can run a study on bodybuilders and find glutamine supplementation useful.
    Wrong, real world experience is always the last word when it flies in the face of science, especially when the science is pseudo-science as you are spouting here. The only people I've heard downplay glutamine arew the mindless droves of message board followers, who believe anything any teenage wannabe guru with no lifting experience tells them just because he can cut and paste studies very nicely. The anti-glutamine articles you posted are very reason I don't attach much relevance to pub-med. Lots of studies; nothing relevant or near as practical as real world experience.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wow, Im shocked. Nandi is by no means a grad student. He has an MS yes and writes for several boards and journals I believe. To down play his education like that is pretty disrespectful. I would take his opinion over the kind of Synthol, Milos. Who needs glutamine when you have synthol? Nandi is by far in the top 5 of most intelligent members on all of the boards. You have been to CEM, you know what he does over there. Anyone who writes for T-Mag is simply confused. I cant believe someone treats T-Mag like the bible. Its all junk. One week they write an article and publish it on the amazing feats of glutamine, and a week later they print another calling glutamine useless, amazing.
    Nandi is a very sharp guy, especially compared to your average message board teen. Comparing him to Sarcev is a joke. Milos may haved used synthol, but he has also forgotten more than Nandi will ever know. I'm shocked you put them in the same league. Nandi is knowledgeable for a message board guru. Show me when he can get an article published in T-Mag or any other mag. He is not in a class with any professional writer. Just shows your lack of experience. Remember, "Those who can't do .... teach." Show me his accomplishments. Those of Sarcev, Serrano and Poliquin are legendary. They are the ones who should feel insulted here.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Any citations for these or do we just take his word for it? Because I have several abstracts done by top universities that say otherwise.
    THEY ARE THEIR OWN CITATIONS! They are showing you their real world experience and citing results they have proven themselves on partients. They need no aids patient or lab rat references. keep rambling here, you are just proving your own lack of knowledge and experience.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Unfortunately even though our body can synthesize this amino acid from the other amino acids (glutamic acid, isoleucin and valine) it appears that body's ability to produce Glutamine doesn't
    replenishes what was lost during intense training or stress.
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 10:12 PM.

  15. Originally posted by John Benz

    Wrong, real world experience is always the last word when it flies in the face of science, especially when the science is pseudo-science as you are spouting here.
    Wrong again. Science rules out placebo. When you pay a high dollar amount for supplements, you want to believe they work so bad that you talk yourself into 'gaining' just to avoid the heartache of wasting money. Some supplements work for some people, it doesnt work for others, so who's to decide? Science! Sure you can buy it and try it and if it doesnt work, great, but Im not going to go out and sample thousands of supplements to see which work, or else Id go try Liquid Creatine, but science tells me that creatine is no good suspended in water for an extended period of time. Science prevails everytime. And please, be my guest and point out my 'psuedo-science'. My abstracts and studies certainly hold more water than some T-Mag articles and some synthol abusing tool's own opinion.


    The only people I've heard downplay glutamine arew the mindless droves of message board followers, who believe anything any teenage wannabe guru with no lifting experience tells them just because he can cut and paste studies very nicely. The anti-glutamine articles you posted are very reason I don't attach much relevance to pub-med. Lots of studies; nothing relevant or near as practical as real world experience.

    Oh so this is personal now? I have no credibility because I dont believe in glutamine? Nice science behind that one. And PubMed is now useless because it contains articles that show glutamine to be useless, yet you dig and search your brains out to find a few that say its useful, and you did? Nice. I have a feeling this thread will be deleted soon.

    Nandi is a very sharp guy, especially compared to your average message board teen. Comparing him to Sarcev is a joke. Milos may haved used synthol, but he has also forgotten more than Nandi will ever know. I'm shocked you put them in the same league. Nandi is knowledgeable for a message board guru. Show me when he can get an article published in T-Mag or any other mag. He is not in a class with any professional writer. Just shows your lack of experience. Remember, "Those who can't do .... teach." Show me his accomplishments. Those of Sarcev, Serrano and Poliquin are legendary. They are the ones who should feel insulted here.
    Wow, they publish and write for T-Mag. The same guys who discuss the Biotest oral 4-AD year around bridge (LoL) and the guys who one week publish an anti-glutamine article and then the next week publish one pro-glutamine. And wait, this is the same magazine that cited sources for a pro-glutamine article that were actually dismissing glutamine! Haha.... remember that? oh wait, you deleted that thread. Nandi is brilliant, he needs no one to vouche for him, his work is published in journals and all over the net, including Mind&Muscle which, whether you like Avant Labs or not, is a very good online magazine. I would select that over T-Mag anyday for its raw, unbiased approach to hundreds of topics. They dont need a former pro to be paid to pimp and push products, T-Mag has little or no credibility, and its a shame, because like you mentioned, a couple of those guys are bright.

    THEY ARE THEIR OWN CITATIONS! They are showing you their real world experience and citing results they have proven themselves on partients. They need no aids patient or lab rat references. keep rambling here, you are just proving your own lack of knowledge and experience.
    Sorry, their citations arent good enough for me, or to prove your point. Jay Cutler gained 27bs on Cell Tech, so why not go buy some Cell Tech?
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 10:13 PM.

  16. MOD's please make sure this thread does not get deleted. Thanks!

  17. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wrong again. Science rules out placebo. When you pay a high dollar amount for supplements, you want to believe they work so bad that you talk yourself into 'gaining' just to avoid the heartache of wasting money. Some supplements work for some people, it doesnt work for others, so who's to decide? Science! Sure you can buy it and try it and if it doesnt work, great, but Im not going to go out and sample thousands of supplements to see which work, or else Id go try Liquid Creatine, but science tells me that creatine is no good suspended in water for an extended period of time. Science prevails everytime. And please, be my guest and point out my 'psuedo-science'. My abstracts and studies certainly hold more water than some T-Mag articles and some synthol abusing tool's own opinion.
    It's always nice to call an extremely effective supplement a placebo. Over a million glutamine users are just experiencing placebo effect.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Oh so this is personal now? I have no credibility because I dont believe in glutamine? Nice science behind that one. And PubMed is now useless because it contains articles that show glutamine to be useless, yet you dig and search your brains out to find a few that say its useful, and you did? Nice. I have a feeling this thread will be deleted soon.
    Pubmed is a wonderful tool. It's up to the researcher to find RELEVANT studies and to cite references and show that they understand a little of what they are reading, and explain the relevance in practical terms as it pertains to the subject at hand.  I will go with real world knowlrdge from the experts, anytime.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wow, they publish and write for T-Mag. The same guys who discuss the Biotest oral 4-AD year around bridge (LoL) and the guys who one week publish an anti-glutamine article and then the next week publish one pro-glutamine. And wait, this is the same magazine that cited sources for a pro-glutamine article that were actually dismissing glutamine! Haha.... remember that? oh wait, you deleted that thread. Nandi is brilliant, he needs no one to vouche for him, his work is published in journals and all over the net, including Mind&Muscle which, whether you like Avant Labs or not, is a very good online magazine. I would select that over T-Mag anyday for its raw, unbiased approach to hundreds of topics. They dont need a former pro to be paid to pimp and push products, T-Mag has little or no credibility, and its a shame, because like you mentioned, a couple of those guys are bright.
    Sorry, but T-Mag has worlds of credibility. They have some of the best articles on training and nutrition to be found anywhere. Nandi has never been published in any major mag or journal an simply is not in the same league with the 3 men I quoted.
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 10:10 PM.

  18. Originally posted by John Benz

    It's always nice to call an extremely effective supplement a placebo. Over a million glutamine users are just experiencing placebo effect. Riiiiigght. If it makes the little cut and paste man feel better.
    Over a million? Can I see a reference to that? Or is that a random number? Because thats a lot of people.

    No, you have NO credibility because you have experience. Pubmed is a wonderful tool. It's up to the researcher to find RELEVANT studies and to cite references and show that they understand a little of what they are reading, and explain the relevance in practical terms as it pertains to the subject at hand. You just paste up a random bunch of irrelevant glutamine studies and they prove nothing. I will go with real world knowlrdge from the experts, anytime.
    Probably got that a little backwards, but as far as the cutting and pasting, sorry brother, but thats what sites like PubMed & Medline are for. I guess I could type it all out so it wouldnt technically be a cut & paste, but I dont have the time. You take real world experience, I do also. From those who have credibility. Not from someone pushing or pimping it and citing T-Mag articles. In the end, science wins, once again.

    Sorry, son, but T-Mag has worlds of credibility. They have some of the best articles on training and nutrition to be found anywhere. Nandi has never been published in any major mag or journal an simply is not in the same league with the 3 men I quoted. You can rant away, boy, but facts is facts. And the fact that you even list nandi in the same sentence with those 3 shows your inexperience, nothing more;nothing less.
    I disagree. They are very biased towards the products they sell (naturally) and they write contradicting articles, and cite sources that are actually going against the point they're trying to prove. Anyone can hire some washed up bodybuilders and persuade them or pay them to talk about how awesome a supplement is, **** look at Cutler, he uses cell tech! As far as Nandi goes, like I said, rag on him, but he's probably the most intelligent, helpful, unbiased member of any message board, not to mention he writes material for things beyond threads of message boards, you fail to realize that, maybe if you'd put down T-Mag and read some real studies and articles, you'd think differently.

    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 10:07 PM.

  19. This thread done. Leave it as it is. Thanks.
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