Who Wastes Money on Glutamine?

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    Question of Strength
    The real Master Blaster reveals
    the science behind building muscle
    by Charles Poliquin

    _
    Q: What type of diet would you recommend while using your 1-6-1 training program? In general, what would you suggest for anyone whose primary goal is to build strength?

    A: In a nutshell, when interested in increasing your level of maximal strength (regardless of whether you're doing the 1-6-1 program or some other routine geared toward increasing strength), I find that supplements actually play a bigger part than diet. This, of course, is assuming that you're eating a diet that's more well-balanced than that eaten by the average guest on the Jerry Springer show.

    Additionally, diets are very individual specific, and trying to prescribe a universal strength-building diet is risky. The key thing to keep in mind, however, in eating for maximal strength gains is focus, and anything that dulls your focus should immediately be kicked out of your diet with the deftness of an Irish barkeeper throwing out an unruly drunk. Personally, I have to abstain from carbs until the workout is over, even the low glycemic index ones. Contrast that with pro bodybuilder Milos Sarcev, however, who can ingest enough pasta to save a small African nation from starvation and still have a great workout. Compounds that I have found to help increase strength:

    • Acetyl-l-carnitine, 3-7 grams per day
    • Glutamine, 30-70 grams per day
    • Branched-chain aminos/glutamine, taken while training, like Beverly International's Muscularity (800-781-3475)
    • Ribose/creatine combo, four servings per day
    • Sufficient protein, two grams per pound of bodyweight (most individuals will need to use liquid meals to achieve this target)
    • Plenty of smart fats like CLA and fish oils
    • Certain forms of tocotrienols in high dosages (they also dramatically reduce cholesterol)
    • Various herbal preparations (this goes beyond the scope of this column, I enlist the help of a naturopath trained in herbology)

    I'm not suggesting that you take all of the previous compounds at once. But I do recommend that you experiment with some of them, either alone or in combination, and find what works best for you.

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    Originally posted by John Benz
    In the old days, whenever a doctor said something—anything—it was pretty much taken as gospel. After all, they're all incredibly bright, they all pull down some serious cash, and, well, they're doctors.

    Of course, those of us in our little field of kamikaze, theoretical, self-experimental bodybuilding have a different take on most physicians. How so? Well, most of us run away screaming when someone flashes his or her MD credentials. You can't blame us, though. Traditional medical education has taught doctors that steroids are a poison on par with strychnine; that any amount of protein greater than the RDA will practically cause your kidneys to fall out; and that creatine needs further research (even though there are hundreds, if not thousands, of studies supporting its use).

    Happily, there are always exceptions. Nowadays, there are doctors who are elbow-deep in the area of bodybuilding and physique augmentation. And man, when you find someone like that, you've really got something.
    Thats great, but someone call me when size equals intelligence. Im not doubting this guy's background and knowledge, but Nandi certainly is no push over. Not to mention he is a powerlifter, who eats and trains much differently from a bodybuilder.


    Dr. Eric Serrano on Glutamine:

    Glutamine has made a big difference in my patients, especially their immune systems, and glutamine gets rid of colds; it helps your joints; and it can increase your strength in one day.
    Wait, didnt even you state above that no one takes glutamine for its supposed boost of the immune system? This is certainly been dismissed.


    People will ask me where I'm getting this information from, but I've been playing with 11 patients with different dosages. Here's what I've come up with: you need .35 grams per kilogram of body weight. And you take it in one dose an hour before a workout. Tell me what happens during your workout. I don't care what type of workout it is.
    Im willing to try this.

    Number two, I have found out, and this is very important, glutamine is a marker of overtraining. If I take people, and I have them write down their workouts, and if their glutamic acid/glutamine ratio is over 10 to one, that person was invariably getting sick or developing soreness, or their performance was going down.
    Sorry, I just cant take his word for it. I havent taken it in years, when using adequate amounts of protein, flax oil, and liver tabs, the soreness subsides in 2-3 days. Of course, I doubt my basal glutamine levels are suppressed enough to make a difference, Im not a marathon runner.


    I will tell you, papers are going to come out on it, because it's very interesting how this works. If the ratio is less than 10 to 1, you're overtraining. If I give you oral glutamine, you'll prevent overtraining. I have some theories about how it works, but I don't want to talk about them yet…if it works that way, great, but I don't want to give people the wrong idea.
    Once again, Im interested, but Im doubting it. Were these people doing cardio? If so, what type? What was their dietary recall like? How much protein? Too many questions left unanswered.

    Because the cost is so high, I wouldn't take it every day.
    Ah geeez, now come on man. Let's be fair. The article above says it must be taken everyday until you work your way up to 20 grams. I suppose you must also keep plasma levels high or its useless? The cost is high, it has VERY low cost effectiveness. For 1 300 gram tub of glutamine, I can get 5lbs of Optimum 100% whey protein (77 servings). Not cost effective at all, for what functions it supposely serves. its not worth the $$$. Regardless of your income, its just not.


    I might take a baseline dosage of 2 to 5 grams a day to keep my levels high, but if I'm going through an intensity phase or accumulation phase, like Charles Poliquin calls them, I will take a larger dosage—.35 grams (times body weight in kilograms) and divide it into two dosages; in the morning, an hour before the workout, and the other half before bedtime to preserve muscle while I'm sleeping.

    But Milos says to make sure to take it post workout......
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    Originally posted by John Benz
    Question of Strength
    The real Master Blaster reveals
    the science behind building muscle
    by Charles Poliquin
    Sounds like a FAQ for EAS glutamine..... where was this published? Just curious.

    This, of course, is assuming that you're eating a diet that's more well-balanced than that eaten by the average guest on the Jerry Springer show.
    Again, I dont know if he wants to be taken seriously, bu the 'cute' references to Springer, etc. make this a pretty unprofessional piece. Thats just a side not however.

    • Glutamine, 30-70 grams per day
    Oh, now its 70 grams of glutamine? Hey, thats practical.
    • Branched-chain aminos/glutamine, taken while training, like Beverly International's Muscularity (800-781-3475)
    LMAO! Oh now I see. A shameless plug for BI products. Oh god, how lame. I knew there was a motive behind the madness. Dont trust anything written by or for a supplement company, if we did, we'd all be using Liquid Creatine.
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Real world 'experience' will never replace hard science. The reasons these do not exist, is because there are none. No one can run a study on bodybuilders and find glutamine supplementation useful.
    Wrong, real world experience is always the last word when it flies in the face of science, especially when the science is pseudo-science as you are spouting here. The only people I've heard downplay glutamine arew the mindless droves of message board followers, who believe anything any teenage wannabe guru with no lifting experience tells them just because he can cut and paste studies very nicely. The anti-glutamine articles you posted are very reason I don't attach much relevance to pub-med. Lots of studies; nothing relevant or near as practical as real world experience.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wow, Im shocked. Nandi is by no means a grad student. He has an MS yes and writes for several boards and journals I believe. To down play his education like that is pretty disrespectful. I would take his opinion over the kind of Synthol, Milos. Who needs glutamine when you have synthol? Nandi is by far in the top 5 of most intelligent members on all of the boards. You have been to CEM, you know what he does over there. Anyone who writes for T-Mag is simply confused. I cant believe someone treats T-Mag like the bible. Its all junk. One week they write an article and publish it on the amazing feats of glutamine, and a week later they print another calling glutamine useless, amazing.
    Nandi is a very sharp guy, especially compared to your average message board teen. Comparing him to Sarcev is a joke. Milos may haved used synthol, but he has also forgotten more than Nandi will ever know. I'm shocked you put them in the same league. Nandi is knowledgeable for a message board guru. Show me when he can get an article published in T-Mag or any other mag. He is not in a class with any professional writer. Just shows your lack of experience. Remember, "Those who can't do .... teach." Show me his accomplishments. Those of Sarcev, Serrano and Poliquin are legendary. They are the ones who should feel insulted here.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Any citations for these or do we just take his word for it? Because I have several abstracts done by top universities that say otherwise.
    THEY ARE THEIR OWN CITATIONS! They are showing you their real world experience and citing results they have proven themselves on partients. They need no aids patient or lab rat references. keep rambling here, you are just proving your own lack of knowledge and experience.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Unfortunately even though our body can synthesize this amino acid from the other amino acids (glutamic acid, isoleucin and valine) it appears that body's ability to produce Glutamine doesn't
    replenishes what was lost during intense training or stress.
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 08:12 PM.
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    Wrong, real world experience is always the last word when it flies in the face of science, especially when the science is pseudo-science as you are spouting here.
    Wrong again. Science rules out placebo. When you pay a high dollar amount for supplements, you want to believe they work so bad that you talk yourself into 'gaining' just to avoid the heartache of wasting money. Some supplements work for some people, it doesnt work for others, so who's to decide? Science! Sure you can buy it and try it and if it doesnt work, great, but Im not going to go out and sample thousands of supplements to see which work, or else Id go try Liquid Creatine, but science tells me that creatine is no good suspended in water for an extended period of time. Science prevails everytime. And please, be my guest and point out my 'psuedo-science'. My abstracts and studies certainly hold more water than some T-Mag articles and some synthol abusing tool's own opinion.


    The only people I've heard downplay glutamine arew the mindless droves of message board followers, who believe anything any teenage wannabe guru with no lifting experience tells them just because he can cut and paste studies very nicely. The anti-glutamine articles you posted are very reason I don't attach much relevance to pub-med. Lots of studies; nothing relevant or near as practical as real world experience.

    Oh so this is personal now? I have no credibility because I dont believe in glutamine? Nice science behind that one. And PubMed is now useless because it contains articles that show glutamine to be useless, yet you dig and search your brains out to find a few that say its useful, and you did? Nice. I have a feeling this thread will be deleted soon.

    Nandi is a very sharp guy, especially compared to your average message board teen. Comparing him to Sarcev is a joke. Milos may haved used synthol, but he has also forgotten more than Nandi will ever know. I'm shocked you put them in the same league. Nandi is knowledgeable for a message board guru. Show me when he can get an article published in T-Mag or any other mag. He is not in a class with any professional writer. Just shows your lack of experience. Remember, "Those who can't do .... teach." Show me his accomplishments. Those of Sarcev, Serrano and Poliquin are legendary. They are the ones who should feel insulted here.
    Wow, they publish and write for T-Mag. The same guys who discuss the Biotest oral 4-AD year around bridge (LoL) and the guys who one week publish an anti-glutamine article and then the next week publish one pro-glutamine. And wait, this is the same magazine that cited sources for a pro-glutamine article that were actually dismissing glutamine! Haha.... remember that? oh wait, you deleted that thread. Nandi is brilliant, he needs no one to vouche for him, his work is published in journals and all over the net, including Mind&Muscle which, whether you like Avant Labs or not, is a very good online magazine. I would select that over T-Mag anyday for its raw, unbiased approach to hundreds of topics. They dont need a former pro to be paid to pimp and push products, T-Mag has little or no credibility, and its a shame, because like you mentioned, a couple of those guys are bright.

    THEY ARE THEIR OWN CITATIONS! They are showing you their real world experience and citing results they have proven themselves on partients. They need no aids patient or lab rat references. keep rambling here, you are just proving your own lack of knowledge and experience.
    Sorry, their citations arent good enough for me, or to prove your point. Jay Cutler gained 27bs on Cell Tech, so why not go buy some Cell Tech?
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 08:13 PM.
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    MOD's please make sure this thread does not get deleted. Thanks!
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wrong again. Science rules out placebo. When you pay a high dollar amount for supplements, you want to believe they work so bad that you talk yourself into 'gaining' just to avoid the heartache of wasting money. Some supplements work for some people, it doesnt work for others, so who's to decide? Science! Sure you can buy it and try it and if it doesnt work, great, but Im not going to go out and sample thousands of supplements to see which work, or else Id go try Liquid Creatine, but science tells me that creatine is no good suspended in water for an extended period of time. Science prevails everytime. And please, be my guest and point out my 'psuedo-science'. My abstracts and studies certainly hold more water than some T-Mag articles and some synthol abusing tool's own opinion.
    It's always nice to call an extremely effective supplement a placebo. Over a million glutamine users are just experiencing placebo effect.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Oh so this is personal now? I have no credibility because I dont believe in glutamine? Nice science behind that one. And PubMed is now useless because it contains articles that show glutamine to be useless, yet you dig and search your brains out to find a few that say its useful, and you did? Nice. I have a feeling this thread will be deleted soon.
    Pubmed is a wonderful tool. It's up to the researcher to find RELEVANT studies and to cite references and show that they understand a little of what they are reading, and explain the relevance in practical terms as it pertains to the subject at hand.  I will go with real world knowlrdge from the experts, anytime.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Wow, they publish and write for T-Mag. The same guys who discuss the Biotest oral 4-AD year around bridge (LoL) and the guys who one week publish an anti-glutamine article and then the next week publish one pro-glutamine. And wait, this is the same magazine that cited sources for a pro-glutamine article that were actually dismissing glutamine! Haha.... remember that? oh wait, you deleted that thread. Nandi is brilliant, he needs no one to vouche for him, his work is published in journals and all over the net, including Mind&Muscle which, whether you like Avant Labs or not, is a very good online magazine. I would select that over T-Mag anyday for its raw, unbiased approach to hundreds of topics. They dont need a former pro to be paid to pimp and push products, T-Mag has little or no credibility, and its a shame, because like you mentioned, a couple of those guys are bright.
    Sorry, but T-Mag has worlds of credibility. They have some of the best articles on training and nutrition to be found anywhere. Nandi has never been published in any major mag or journal an simply is not in the same league with the 3 men I quoted.
    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 08:10 PM.
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    It's always nice to call an extremely effective supplement a placebo. Over a million glutamine users are just experiencing placebo effect. Riiiiigght. If it makes the little cut and paste man feel better.
    Over a million? Can I see a reference to that? Or is that a random number? Because thats a lot of people.

    No, you have NO credibility because you have experience. Pubmed is a wonderful tool. It's up to the researcher to find RELEVANT studies and to cite references and show that they understand a little of what they are reading, and explain the relevance in practical terms as it pertains to the subject at hand. You just paste up a random bunch of irrelevant glutamine studies and they prove nothing. I will go with real world knowlrdge from the experts, anytime.
    Probably got that a little backwards, but as far as the cutting and pasting, sorry brother, but thats what sites like PubMed & Medline are for. I guess I could type it all out so it wouldnt technically be a cut & paste, but I dont have the time. You take real world experience, I do also. From those who have credibility. Not from someone pushing or pimping it and citing T-Mag articles. In the end, science wins, once again.

    Sorry, son, but T-Mag has worlds of credibility. They have some of the best articles on training and nutrition to be found anywhere. Nandi has never been published in any major mag or journal an simply is not in the same league with the 3 men I quoted. You can rant away, boy, but facts is facts. And the fact that you even list nandi in the same sentence with those 3 shows your inexperience, nothing more;nothing less.
    I disagree. They are very biased towards the products they sell (naturally) and they write contradicting articles, and cite sources that are actually going against the point they're trying to prove. Anyone can hire some washed up bodybuilders and persuade them or pay them to talk about how awesome a supplement is, **** look at Cutler, he uses cell tech! As far as Nandi goes, like I said, rag on him, but he's probably the most intelligent, helpful, unbiased member of any message board, not to mention he writes material for things beyond threads of message boards, you fail to realize that, maybe if you'd put down T-Mag and read some real studies and articles, you'd think differently.

    Last edited by windwords7; 03-28-2003 at 08:07 PM.
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    This thread done. Leave it as it is. Thanks.
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