Is it possible to gain muscle on PCT
08-19-2005 08:48 AM
Is it possible to gain muscle on PCT
Say for instance one was to take a 4 week cycle of SD at 10mg/day, this is a mild cycle. So for PCT you were going to go with what some would call overkill, (Ultra Hotter, LX, Activate, Fen, E-Form) knowing you don't need all of this to recover from such a mild cycle, would it be possible to still build muscle by using all of these during PCT?
08-19-2005 02:06 PM
You could build muscle during PCT by eating more and training right.
This ought to shock a lot of you: It's actually possible to gain muscle without androgens. Who knew?!
08-19-2005 02:09 PM
I know I was vague but what I should have said was that "can you get the effect of muscle gains by using these products for PCT"
08-19-2005 09:44 PM
Can get em w/o the products.
08-20-2005 01:43 AM
SHUT YO MOUF!!!
Originally Posted by Onslaught
08-20-2005 09:51 PM
I've never been able to but maybe IGF-1 might change that next time around
08-21-2005 06:14 PM
Extreme massive eating and a good training program, will always result in muscle growth. Pretty much regardless of high or low androgen levels.
If one wanted to have as much LBM as Ronnie Colemen without ever using a steroid, its possible. Expect you'll probably have to become a total tub of lard, in the process.
08-21-2005 08:27 PM
The first part of you statement in pretty accurate, but suggesting one could have Ronnie Coleman's muscle mass sans steroids/insulin/igf/etc is pretty ridiculous. Human genetics can only take you so far....some might come closer to that size (even with the proverbial "tub of lard" added) but I think most would fall far short. You'll see that once one's muscle mass starts getting pretty significant for their build, adding new muscle becomes more and more difficult period.
Originally Posted by TheTom
08-23-2005 04:04 AM
I said it was possible that a natural weightlifter can have as much LBM as Ronnie Colemen. I didn't say it was possible to "look" like him.
A 350lbs @30% bodyfat weightlifter has 245lbs of lbm and a 270lbs 3% bodyfat ronnie colemen has 261.9lbs of lbm.
They'll look absolutely nothing alike whatsoever, but 350lbs @30% bodyfat is attainable for a natural lifter who has the desire to become a massive fat/muscular dude.
and I don't completely agree with your statements. It does become harder as time goes on to add LBM, but only because it becomes increasingly difficult to get the rediculously high caloric demands the body requires.
and even when the person can meet the caloric demands the body requires to consistently put on a lb of lbm on a monthly basis, the excessive fat gain will most assuredly make the lifter change his goals to cutting.
08-23-2005 04:18 AM
I'm sure Scottyo knows what you were referring to.
You're just not going to see a natural person develope to the heights of an unnatural person, period, with or without the extra fat. Fat is just fat, dude. Extra, stored kcals. It doesn't do anything special, it just means that you ate more cals than you needed. (well, not getting technical anyway, I know fat has a few critical functions).
getting cals only makes a difference if you can convince your body to help build more muscle mass, which it doesn't want to do without supraphysiological hormone levels.
08-23-2005 06:38 AM
You don't need supraphysiological amounts of hormones to build very high levels of LBM.
I am going to reword my opinion, so it doesn't seem so vague. Basically, what I should of said was,
any natural weightlifter without a hormone deifiency or overly ectomorphic bodytype, can attain as much LBM as an anabolic using pro in his competition-state (3%-5% bf).
The big difference
The anabolic using pro will have that incredible amount of LBM at a very low bodyfat, whereas the natural will have to look like the marshmellow man, to maintain it.
The one thing I do agree on is that a natural lifter can never obtain as much LBM as a lifter on anabolic aids, if both their goals involve becoming behemoths (meaning the roider doesn't care about bf% either).
A good example would be, seasoned natural powerlifters. There's plenty of natural powerlifters that have been in the iron game for 20+ years, that hover around the 300lbs-375lbs mark.
You might not be able to visibly see their musculature as well as a bodybuilders, but it is there.
08-23-2005 04:18 PM
no...not for big muscles. For ronnie coleman like levels of mass, you do
I just simply cannot agree. And...not many people will, either. There is too much evidence to the contrary, not to mention the obvious empirical evidence.
08-23-2005 08:47 PM
I don't know how the hell this thread is turning into a natural versus steroid user argument. Personally, I can't gain **** during pct, and am more concerned with hanging onto the gains that I obtained during the cycle. Training with the same intensity levels on cycle would seem to me to be a surefire way to lose a good portion of those gains. To those who say it's easy to gain muscle with eating and training regardless of hormone levels, I simply ask have you actually cycled and been shut-down before?
This argument is like saying that my 90 year old grandfather can start eating a pile and lifting and gain new muscle, when his testosterone levels are likely those of a pre-pubescent boy.
08-24-2005 01:34 PM
I gotta agree. I'm in the same boat when it comes to pct. I'm still looking for something that will help with pct. My last SD cycle I lost every lb. pct I put on during cycle. I'll be trying retain.
08-24-2005 07:09 PM
Well, I don't know my final status regarding my post PCT cycle but I kept and gained more muscle weight during my PCT cycle. I did cut the calories during my PCT because I didn't want to risk becoming fat and I love the beach weather.
I'm taking the following during my PCT, CEE, HMB, BCAA, flax/fish oil and liver tablets. I also increased my protein intake through out the day. Once my PCT is over, I will continue to take the supplements that I mention but I will add ZMA to my rotation.
Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
08-25-2005 01:42 PM
08-25-2005 08:40 PM
Right now, I'm stocking up for my Oct cycle (Ergo/Pro). As of now, all I have is RXT. Would throwing in Retain be overkill or would that work well w/ the RXT?
Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
08-25-2005 09:36 PM
I'd say yes, if the PCT is done just right, with ALL the right elements INCLUDING the right training intensity and calorie/protein intake. For that, you must know your body VERY well...
hGH and IGF-1 together with the natty-test boosters / ActivaTe come to mind...
08-25-2005 11:53 PM
exactly. muscle mass is not just dep. on calorie expenditure. i dont care how much fat you have to add, you will not get 270lbs of lbm on a 6ft frame. there comes a point where one HAS to use androgens to MAINTAIN weight. of course, 95% of the people are nowhere near there.
Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-26-2005 01:32 PM
I dont think it would be overkill. as far as I know retain is not an anti estrogen. it works to keep muscle a different way. my next cycle will include rxt on cycle and then pct with retain and a few other supps.
Originally Posted by Yjyankee
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