For discussion - suppression crybabies

[N4cer]

Is anyone else sick and tired of people whining about HPTA suppression? YOU'RE USING EXOGENOUS HORMONES! SUPPRESSION IS PART OF THE DEAL, GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thoughts, comments?

 

[diamonddave]

Is anyone else sick and tired of people whining about HPTA suppression? YOU'RE USING EXOGENOUS HORMONES! SUPPRESSION IS PART OF THE DEAL, GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thoughts, comments?

Yep, I'm tired of it. It's as if these guys are getting caught by surprise with this. Totally unprepared to deal with it.

:whiner: I really just responded so I could use some of the new smilies. :head:

dd

 

[motiv8er]

The degree of suppression per compound is a big factor in what and when I choose certain chems in my cycles. I personally try to keep the supression the most in the beginning of a cycle and try to have a larger degree of recovery towards the later portions. But like you said, it is all part of the game. Know your foes so you can master them.
New smilies... :woohoo: :woohoo: :burger: :toofunny: :ntome: :whiner: :bow28: :dance: :duel:
:hammer:

 

[Alpha Dog]

Yes and No. Suppression is basically a forgone conclusion when administering exogenous hormones. But what if we could limit the damage? What if you were told you could minimize your hangover the next day by taking a few hundred milligrams of ibuprophin before going to bed. Would you say, "f*ck no, people who drink get hangovers and I want to suffer." As pharmaceutical technology advances, there's nothing wrong with seeking a better solution.

 

[N4cer]

So you think if you use something less suppressive toward the end of the cycle that you'll have a significant difference in your recovery?
I've heard of that theory, but never seen any evidence. No studies, nor anyone who actually says they can tell a difference. If this is working for ya, let's talk protocols so I can learn from you man. I'm interested to know about it.

 

[Alpha Dog]

The degree of suppression per compound is a big factor in what and when I choose certain chems in my cycles. I personally try to keep the supression the most in the beginning of a cycle and try to have a larger degree of recovery towards the later portions.

This theory is a bit odd to me. Can your hpta truly recover in the presence of exogenous hormones? Even if those hormones are only moderately androgenic? I have never seen any evidence that they can. So, why shut yourself down quicker by frontloading with highly androgenic compounds and then simply keep yourslef in that state for an extended period of time later in the cycle by taking minimally supressive compounds. From a endroconological standpoint, I don't think this makes much sense.

 

[motiv8er]

FWIW I am totally speaking from my own expereinces:
Say you were going to use Pro hormones and you'd selected
4-ad 900 mgs ed trans 6 weeks
20 mgs m-1-t for second and third weeks
Rebound XT 1 cap ed w/ last meal throughout cycle

Thats how I'd run the cycle personally. For me M1T hits very quickly so I's wanna make sure I had exo test ready to counter. By using the RXT or UHER from the start I *feel* less supressed. Of course I am using exo hormones and am somewhat supressed. PCT feels like a snap these days. I think I gain as much while off as while on! Maybe not quite the truth but our aresenal has grown in recent times.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

gotta agree with being annoyed with all the crybabies that they got shut down. also interested in motiv8ers theory.

 

[Old Guy]

I think we all would like to know what we can do to limit shutdown, and the best ways to
speed recovery as much as possible.

I do agree however, anyone should know before they start a cycle that the probability of shutdown exists.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

HCG always...
The lipid thing is overblown, but I may have caused that forest fire

 

[Sticks]

I think a lot of it has to do w/ATD and the thought that it may help w/suppression. Now the guys going the legal route have something to use that may help. Where the guys going w/AAS have always had HCG. It will die down soon i'm sure.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i hope it works, although not cost effective
The strength gains from ATD (as part of PCT) were suprising and also very good

 

[Bignate]

I just like to run Nolva before, through and after a cycle, at least for my short cycles it really seems to work well.

 

[Onslaught]

This theory is a bit odd to me. Can your hpta truly recover in the presence of exogenous hormones? Even if those hormones are only moderately androgenic? I have never seen any evidence that they can. So, why shut yourself down quicker by frontloading with highly androgenic compounds and then simply keep yourslef in that state for an extended period of time later in the cycle by taking minimally supressive compounds. From a endroconological standpoint, I don't think this makes much sense.

I believe it depends upon on the exogenous hormone that you're using. I'm no authority, but using anything other than Testerone for this seems ridiculous. But some think the whole notion is ridiculous and impossible. However, if administering testosterone at an amount less than your normal level, why couldn't you partially recover? Your body does not know that the testoterone is exogenous, it's knows about AR binding and that's about it, not whether you not you got it from a pin stuck in your ass. A good friend of mine has used this approach twice now and has had very good success with it, and believe me, he knows what he's doing.

 

[jminis]

I'm tired of it myself but I do appreciate that companies are now spending money in the developement of PCT supps. ALso as much as I don't like to hear the bitching going on I like the fact that people are finally paying attention to other aspects of a cycle then just doing 2g of this and 50mg of that. I think people are realizing just how important controlling estrogen, cortisol and the like are when keeping gains.

 

[Alpha Dog]

I believe it depends upon on the exogenous hormone that you're using. I'm no authority, but using anything other than Testerone for this seems ridiculous. But some think the whole notion is ridiculous and impossible. However, if administering testosterone at an amount less than your normal level, why couldn't you partially recover? Your body does not know that the testoterone is exogenous, it's knows about AR binding and that's about it, not whether you not you got it from a pin stuck in your ass. A good friend of mine has used this approach twice now and has had very good success with it, and believe me, he knows what he's doing.

We discussed this at length in this thread. Pay particular attention to Bobo's posts

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24426&highlight=Synergy

 

[motiv8er]

What I am personally finding most stimulating right now is the development of so many effective PCT products likewise. PCT is looking and feeling more like another extended portion of the cycle than lack of hormone suppression.

7-OHAT
7-OH
ATD
6-OXO
DHEA

What other Newer compounds can we think of? Bow, I have studied you and your short cycle protocol many time and tend to lean in that direction myself. I could build quite effective cycles from what is listed above, PCT regardless.

 

[rrgg]

So you think if you use something less suppressive toward the end of the cycle that you'll have a significant difference in your recovery?

Hey, why do you care? That kind of talk is for suppression crybabies!

How does that crow taste?

 

[N4cer]

Um, it's a rhetorical question.
I was trying to say that the concept is unfounded without saying "that concept is unfounded."
Every now and then I try to be a nice guy instead of my prick self, and see where it gets me? LOL! A big plate of crow.

 

[rrgg]

I was just joking. I forgot the smiley in that post.

 

[Alpha Dog]

What other Newer compounds can we think of?

Being a proponent of running a sympathomimetic compound during PCT, I’m very interested in albuterol for sparing lean mass post cycle. I’ve got a couple of bottles from IBE and will begin dosing a 8 mg’s/ed starting in a week. Otherwise, that’s a pretty good list you’ve got motiv8er.

 

[-2z-]

That's why I use fenugreek....the thought of waffles is very soothing. :toofunny:

 

[N4cer]

I was just joking. I forgot the smiley in that post.

I was kidding too brother. It's all cool. :drunk:

 

[MF210]

if administering testosterone at an amount less than your normal level, why couldn't you partially recover? Your body does not know that the testoterone is exogenous, it's knows about AR binding and that's about it, not whether you not you got it from a pin stuck in your ass. A good friend of mine has used this approach twice now and has had very good success with it, and believe me, he knows what he's doing.

This is interesting. There may be a valid point here.

 

[enimity]

My last cycle was max lmg and emax. Cycle was 5 weeks, max lmg for first 3 and emax for the last 3. Significant shrinkage and drop in libido by 2 weeks in then again noticably smaller 3-4 weeks in.

I started novedex xt at 2 caps ed on the last week of the cycle while running 30mg of emax and to my suprise my boys not only didnt shrivel up and die they actually looked bigger and hung lower by the end of that week.

Almost 7 days into pct with 3 caps ed novedex xt, 2 caps lean xtreme ed and have to say recovery is going much quicker than expected. Of course I cant say for sure without a bloodtest but going by my rising libido and the fact that my balls are almost back to normal after 1 week of pct when they where less than 50% of their size during the cycle I would say the novedex is making a significant difference.

I used nolva after a 1ad/4ad cycle a while back and recovery took all most 3-4 weeks.

 

[Mr.50]

I like to bitch about being surpressed. I hate it. I really wish someone would come out with an HCG like product that I can take to get the boys back up to size before kicking in the SERM, or ATD or whatever.

 

[lifted]

The degree of suppression per compound is a big factor in what and when I choose certain chems in my cycles. I personally try to keep the supression the most in the beginning of a cycle and try to have a larger degree of recovery towards the later portions. But like you said, it is all part of the game. Know your foes so you can master them.

I don't understand. Are you saying that you prefer to use more suppressive AAS during the beginning and then the lighter ones towards the end?

In your post below this one, you said you like to use 4-ad first then M1t last....well that is actually the opposite of what you said above??? Unless you mistyped and I misread...

Regardless, I like to use the more suppressive compounds towards the end of my cycle. Why use the more suppressive compounds in the beginning when all it's gonna do is shut you down faster and hence feel like crap for the rest of oyur cycle? doesn't makes sense.

You should use the more supp. aas towards the end, who wants to feel like crap during the whole cycle vs. just the latter portion?

And no, you cannot recover "partially" when on AAS....these myths will never die. Even on HCG, when you come off of it, you will still be shutdown...it only mimicks.

 

[lifted]

I believe it depends upon on the exogenous hormone that you're using. I'm no authority, but using anything other than Testerone for this seems ridiculous. But some think the whole notion is ridiculous and impossible. However, if administering testosterone at an amount less than your normal level, why couldn't you partially recover? Your body does not know that the testoterone is exogenous, it's knows about AR binding and that's about it, not whether you not you got it from a pin stuck in your ass. A good friend of mine has used this approach twice now and has had very good success with it, and believe me, he knows what he's doing.

This is false. There is no such animal...but if your bud is doing well this way, then more power to him.

Aromatization of ANY kind of test, will cause further HPTA suppression.

Although, I DO think that if on a longer cycle, that (if using test only) tapering down doses towards the end will help with the crash. It's kind of giving your body a warning to be ready for the crash. I mean coming from 1500mg/week to 0ng/ml vs. 1500, then 1000, then 750, then 400, then 200, then 150, then 50 and so-on, I think the latter approach would be better. JMO though...and since *I* believe there are "degrees of shutdown" I believe that this just basically falls into this category as well.

 

[Boss_K]

This is false. There is no such animal...but if your bud is doing well this way, then more power to him.

Aromatization of ANY kind of test, will cause further HPTA suppression.

Although, I DO think that if on a longer cycle, that (if using test only) tapering down doses towards the end will help with the crash. It's kind of giving your body a warning to be ready for the crash. I mean coming from 1500mg/week to 0ng/ml vs. 1500, then 1000, then 750, then 400, then 200, then 150, then 50 and so-on, I think the latter approach would be better. JMO though...and since *I* believe there are "degrees of shutdown" I believe that this just basically falls into this category as well.

I think it may help with recovery psycologically but as far as HPTA recovery, no. As long as there is exogenous test present you will stay shut down, especially at the end of a long cycle. It does not make sense that your body would start making endo hormones just because you dropped your test from 1.5g/wk to .25g/wk...No Way!

 

[lifted]

I think it may help with recovery psycologically but as far as HPTA recovery, no. As long as there is exogenous test present you will stay shut down, especially at the end of a long cycle. It does not make sense that your body would start making endo hormones just because you dropped your test from 1.5g/wk to .25g/wk...No Way!

That's not what I said. In fact I actually agree with that if you would read my earlier post.

What I am trying to say is that weening doses down, your body *may* be able to crash to a lesser degree since you're slowly coming off a cycle...instead of going from 1500mg to 0...you would go from 1500 and then ween back down week by week. When you start PCT, you won't crash as bad....and then recovery will be easier.

I don't know where you got that I said it will let you start producing natty T while still on.

 

[motiv8er]

A new allie:

17a-methyl-baET

Anybody care to chime in?
:numbered: