BLOOD TEST RESULTS: EFA's and Coleus forskoli
- 07-17-2005, 04:03 PM
BLOOD TEST RESULTS: EFA's and Coleus forskoli
Got some blood work done for my yearly physical and thought I'd share them as they relate to supplements a lot of us take.
I've been AAS free since January 1, 2005 and have slowly tapered my diet down to basically a maintence calorie diet. I mix and cap all of my herbal supps including Cissus/Forselean/ecdy.
Supps I take everyday:
Grapeseed extract/rosemary extract/tocotrienols
fish oil..amount varies
coconut oil..amount varies considerably depending on how much I cook with it.
Cissus/Forselean/ Green tea extract/Rhodiola and ecdy mix has been used for the last 3 months in an effort to retain mass and stay lean.
Glucophase XR for last 30 days.
2005 2004 2001 (pre supp/poor diet years)
Cholesterol total 178 189 206
triglycerides 100 148 151
HDL total 46 28 27
LDL 115 161 176
Chol/HDl ratio 3.9 6.75 7.62
Glucose 77 89 ? likely mediocre
Niacin/EFA's/coconut oil all coupled with avoidance of trans fats and simple sugars made the real difference IMO. The Drs wanted me on statins in 2001 and 2004..I said no thankyou.
Kidney values all within normal range but leaning towards the higher end. Worked out 2 nights before test...nothing unusual there.
Liver values all good. GGT was 21 (ref range 5-80), AST 34, ALT 44, BILI 0.9. Likely this is the result of the lengthy cycle of NAC/milk thistle and the 30 day run of GXR. I was pleased by these numbers.
CRP 2.7 indicating moderate cardio risk. Again, working out 2 nights beforehand probably upped this number. It also doesn't say which CRP we are dealing with so I'm assuming it's an average of the 3?
THYROID numbers a bit high
TSH 5.01 (ref range 0.45- 4.50)
This is likely the result of 3 months on Coleus forskoli/Forselean. The Dr is all geared up to put me on thyroid meds if these are high again in 3 months..which I'm not going to allow unless things really ARE bad. I figure I can delete Coleus as short as 30 days prior to the test and see normal values again. What do you all think?? Is this the norm for Coleus or am I damaging myself here?
Not super worried but any Dr/med personnel input would be appreciated.
- 07-17-2005, 07:26 PM
B-man, I know you aren't much older than I, but have you had PSA ran? Always a good idea to check for prostate problems.
07-17-2005, 07:51 PM
No, I haven't although I just had another blood test run as I was signing up for life insurance. Their test might have it on the panel and I should get those results in a week to 10 days.
But you are right..it shoud be tested routinely.
07-18-2005, 03:14 AM
Upon further review, I am starting to think that Coleus is NOT the culprit.
I was just informed that high TSH levels mean low T3 or T4 levels. Having NEVER had symptoms of hypothyroidism in my life (I'm quite the ectomorph usually) I was very puzzled by this and did some searching.
Apparently, there's a pretty strong link between flouride exposure and hypothyroidism. I've been hearing more and more about the high flouride contents of most GREEN TEA extracts so I searched that avenue over at mercola.com. Seems green tea extract, my favorite pickmeup supp just might have done my thyroid in via toxic flouride exposure..although it's too early to tell much of anything.
I'm discontinuing all green tea supps, upping my coconut oil intake, adding some L-tyrosine and hoping for the best. Hopefully, since my intake of green tea extract was fairly breif (although fairly heavy at 2 grams per day) the situation will reverse itself.
07-18-2005, 05:07 PM
Very interesting observation and article Bioman,
What does this mean for Green Tea and its constant usage?
07-18-2005, 05:37 PM
Hard to know really as I have no way of knowing if it was green tea. I tend to think the evidence is pretty compelling and considering I was using fairly high doses of cheap extract, that's the avenue I'm going to explore for now. The article also stated that fluoride in the presence of a super anitoxidant may cause the antiox to become strongly pro-oxidative. Fluoride + grapeseed + GXR =???
I really HATE to think that green tea extract is dangerous to use long term but the fluoride content is something to be wary of. Either way, it highlights the importance of monitoring your supplement use.
07-18-2005, 05:51 PM
Just to put this in perspective, that Mercola guy is very alarmist about many supplements and typically lists several indirect relationships to make his case.
07-18-2005, 06:40 PM
Yes, I agree on the alarmist part and he can also be very antogonistic to western medicine in general. I do respect Mercola's approach though, and it's his advice that got my cholesterol levels down to a pretty healthy number.
I also don't want to scare anyone away from any supplement until I know for sure.
I'm basically sitting here trying to figure out what's wrong with me and where I went wrong with supplementation..so I'm weighing options and information as best I can.
I've always been quite healthy and after I started my green tea/coleus/rhodiola stack I felt awesome. A week before my blood test results came back I started getting pretty lethargic and I still am after discontinuation of the stack. I'm seriously hoping I didn't fry my thyroid, but the better part of me thinks that all levels will return to normal within a few weeks..not unlike a T3 cycle. If it was high fluoride exposure that's just kind of creepy and there's no telling what that could do both short and long term.
I have 3 months to wait until I retest, however I may order up a test sooner than that with a more comprehensive thyroid panel.
07-19-2005, 11:20 AM
If you check out Mercola's sources, they're pretty sketchy. Some of them are just quotes and many are as up to date as the 1930's. Anyway, keep us posted on your situation.
07-19-2005, 01:57 PM
Yeah, I know. Articles on his site are often written by friends of his and are often totally lacking in any real science, however it's all I have to go on as my doctor is clueless and I am quite convinced that my thyroid levels are somehow related to some supplement I am taking. Some of that 1930's data stopped there because society suddenly took a very favorable view of fluoridation, but I digress. The bottom line is fluoride was used to treat hyperthyroidism rather effectively. Green tea has lots of fluoride..making an extract of it, without taking steps to remve it, will concentrate the fluroide levels even higher. Me being ig'nert of this fact and taking upwards of 2+ grams of really cheap, bulk chinese extract per day COULD BE exposing myself to dangerous levels..but who knows. Perhaps pesticides played a role? Anyways, far more questions than answers right now and real life problems don't always have scientific backing.
I have access to a good analytical lab and I may send in my remaining caps for testing just for ****s and giggles. Part of me doesn't want to know what's in $3/100gram Chinese extract lol.
There's absolutely no history of hypothyroidism in my family..we're all generally lean ectomorphs, I eat fairly healthy and live a pretty healthy lifestyle so I'm thinking I got exposed to something. I am biased in my thinking this way and I'll have a hard time believing that I just "came down with" hypothyroidism.
In any case, I'm glad I caught this early and I think my levels will return to normal if I have deleted the source of the problem. But yes, I could be wrong...but I'll use this thread as a log just for fun.
Green tea/Cissus/ Rhodiola/ Coleus stack deleted from diet on 7/17/05.
07-19-2005, 02:53 PM
That's probably true. I had my dental student gf look at the article too (she's a little pro-fluoride). Anyway, please post the results if/when you get your thyroid numbers checked again. A lot of us bros love green tea extract so this would be useful for all of us to keep in mind.Originally Posted by bioman
07-19-2005, 03:55 PM
Bioman, I am very curious about the result of your green tea tests. I appreciate your sharing the possibility, however sketchy.
Niacian and Fish oil rules for cholesterol, doesn't it! I am following a similar regimen as my own cholesterol spiked rather high following some bad stress (fun with genetics).
I've also got green tea going as an extract for general health and milk thistle also (niacin's rough on liver) so I'm awaiting your findings with held breath.
07-19-2005, 04:19 PM
I'll make an effort to get it tested..it may take a month or two until I get the cash to do so but I'm really curious and it will serve to further our general knowledge about bulk supps.
By all means, don't take my hypothesis about this situation as a red flag about any supplement until we know more. I'm not on the hysterical fluroide bandwagon but really, it's the most reactive of the Halogens so logic dictates we shouldn't be consuming lots of it. We shall see.
I LOVE green tea and I'll be really bummed if it comes out to be the prime suspect. I'm laying off it for now just to be safe, I'm going to get thyroid levels checked in about 2-3 weeks on my own just to see and then my Dr will recheck two months after that.
I also have blood test results coming from a life insurance exam that was taken exactly 14 days after the initial blood test so we should have a few reference points and I'll lay out what my supp use was like during those blood draws.
07-19-2005, 08:04 PM
Bioman - I don't pretend to know the process of making G.T. extract. But, it is certainly possible that the Flouride may end up primarily in the raffinate (trash) stream rather than the extract stream (that which is sold to you).
We have some sulfur species at one of my extraction units at work that only end up in the raffinate stream. It all depends on molecular interactions with the extraction/entraining agent.
BTW, please do post the results of your analytical tests on the G.T. extract! I'd be very interested to see what is in it.
07-20-2005, 02:11 PM
From your posts, I dont see a free t3/total t3/t4 anwhere on there.Originally Posted by bioman
Now I haven't ever seen bloodwork for forskolin before, but assuming that forskolin stimulates the thyroid, couldnt it be acceptable to assume that the high TSH is caused by the forskolin and that you might have high-normal t3/t4 levels?
Without that information I dont know if you are in bad shape, unless the doc said that you were in a state of hypothyroid.
I'm not sure if it can be related here, but look at bloodworks for AAS cycles. LH/FSH doesnt go up as you take more AAS does it? LH/FSH bottoms out quick, and is the first thing to go up really high after a cycle (I'm referring to SS's post M1T bloodwork using nolva for pct).
Now maybe I'm on the complete wrong track here, but unless you have the t3/t4 panels I dont think you should be going crazy about the flouride.
07-20-2005, 03:45 PM
I hear ya Enigma and the lack of T3/T4 levels in the panel are something to consider. I don't know the exact mechanism of Coleus action but it since it elevates thyroid activity it could simply be elevating TSH without having the usual low T3/T4 levels to cause this. Western medicine simply looks at TSH to see if it's high, then they "assume" t3-t4 are too low. I'm going to order the complete thyroid blood test as soon as I have the cash.
I don't seem to have any hypothyroidal symptoms other than some lethargy. I'm not putting on fat uncontrollably that I can tell although I feel a tad weak..and I felt all of this prior to getting the results back so it's either coincidence or real symptoms and not placebo/power of suggestion. In either case, I'm fine but I just want to make sure. Being on thyroid meds forever sounds crappy.
The fluoride thing is a stretch admittedly, you think we'd hear about more of a hypothyroidism/Greentea/Fluoride connection since millions of people take strong extracts and billions drink tea. There's some indirect evidence in that article but it all has to be taken with a grain of salt.
I do appreciate you all trying to keep me off the ledge so to speak lol. At the very least we'll all learn a little something about the supplements we take.
I "might" have that insurance blood work back by this week and hopefully it will have t3/t4 numbers on it. If it doesn't I'll spring for another test from Lab One.
07-23-2005, 12:28 PM
Bioman, thanks for the info about the link between fluoride levels and hypothyroidism. I immediately did a googling and came up with some interesting comments/opinions. Whether the concerns are overblown, who can say? But the chemistry behind the idea that fluoride has a higher affinity to the tyrosine molecule than iodine makes sense, and now you've got me wondering about some things. I though I'd share a few of the links I found:
07-23-2005, 02:05 PM
A high TSH result often means an underactive thyroid gland that is not responding adequately to the stimulation of TSH due to some type of acute or chronic thyroid dysfunction. Rarely, a high TSH result can indicate a problem with the pituitary gland, such as a tumor producing unregulated levels of TSH, in what is known as secondary hyperthyroidism. A high TSH value can also occur when patients with a known thyroid disorder (or those who have had their thyroid gland removed) are receiving too little thyroid hormone medication.
it all goes back to negative feedback loops. the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland, and thyroid all of them play part in regulating TSH levels. It is frequently ordered along with or preceding a T4 test. T4 test will tell you for sure if you have any thyroid problems.
And i read 7-keto, forselean raise thyroid t3 to normal upper limits values only!!
Are yo going to see an endocrinologist?
07-23-2005, 03:11 PM
It is not a tuumooorrr! lol
Thanks for the input fellas.
I'm simply going to keep an eye on things for right now. I'll order a thyroid panel next week as the life insurance test did NOT have thyroid panels on it at all.
I'm aware of the negative feedback situation and one little tidbit I cam across kind of interests me. Forselean supposedly mimics the action of TSH in order to crank up the thyroid. IS IT possible that the panel wasn't able to distinquish endogenous TSH from the actives in Forselean? Kind of a stretch I know, particularly without the rest of the thyroid numbers available I can only guess. If my t3/t4 numbers come back OK, and TSH is still high then I'll have to wonder it's the Forselean or a tumor.
If t3/t4 is really low and TSH is still high then there's the possibility that my thryoid is simply worn out or fluoride possibly played a role...or some other dysfunction.
And yes, it's annoying only having a partial data set. lol
07-23-2005, 08:15 PM
1) Mercola is a quack and a liar. Like someone pointed out, his sources are ridiculous. I wont get started. There may be some good info on his page but the majority that I have read is way out there and based on BS. Like his whole artificial sweetener stuff. That is all BS.
2) Wait for the next test. Its a little early to start saying tumor and see an endocrinologist, especially since you are asymptomatic. Remember Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best. Thyroid values can vary so I'd wait for follow ups.
07-30-2005, 03:23 PM
Ok Phase 2 of my testing plan is complete. After making 2 trips to the lab collection site because they are idiots and didn't even know they had a contract going with Health Test Direct/LabOne..I finally got drawn and got my numbers back. Two days in a row of 12 hour fasting makes BiO a dull boy.
Special thanks go out to HTD for dealing with this particularly disorganized and snooty lab for me. These guys rock and I highly recommend them for blood panels. www.health-tests-direct.com
T3 uptake 29.22 ref range= 24.4 - 39.1%
TSH (3rd generation) 3.238 ref range= 0.35 - 5.50
Said collection site apparently ****ed up(again) and used the wrong vial so my T4 test could not be performed..I'm more than a little peeved about the whole deal.
In any case I'm happy with these numbers. I had continued taking my Cissus/Forselean combo all this time just to see if that was the culprit. I did stop taking the Green Tea extract during this time.
This may mean that the initial test was just a fluke or that GT may have been responsible. I lean towards it just being a fluke myself.
Phase 3 will consist of me going back on my green tea supplementation. I am scheduled to retest with my Dr. in about 2 months. IF I get another skewed TSH reading then I will be deeply suspicious of GT.
IF this is the case I'll go to Phase 4 which will be to test my batch of green tea for contaminents and fluoride content. I am affiliated with a good lab in Maine that can test anything for anything. I'll have them work out how much fluoride is in each gram of GT if the results come back high. If they cut me a deal I might also have them test my 8 month old CEE just to see what it's shelf life is like...for ****s and giggles.
I heart my Thyroid.
02-10-2006, 03:49 PM
Bump..back from the dead...
Did you get more test(s) after being back on the GT? I was interested to see if it occured again or if it was just a fluke. The Fluoride issues makes me curious. I dont know how legit the claims are but it got my attention as high dose green tea extract is part of my supplementation. (Primaforce Lean Green)
That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-10-2006, 05:21 PM
I have not had any follow up work so I can't say anything definitively. FWIW, I feel great and am experiencing no hypo or hyper thyroid symptoms whatsoever so I tend to think the first test was a fluke. My bf stays about the same and only goes up or down in a totally predictable fashion depending on if I'm bulking or cutting.
The flouride issue...hmmm. I don't know. I still use GT on and off and I likely always will until someone can prove it's bad. The article posted was merely pointing out some weak causal links..things to think about but it does not appear definitive. It DID however freak me out since I was taking heavy doses and then got a skewed blood test result.
05-20-2006, 10:16 AM
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