Epitome worth it???

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  1. Epitome worth it???


    I have a very interesting idea, I am on a cut right now, I was planning on adding the shielded stack, Oxymax, Epitome, and Vector, due to a chance to increase muscle gains while losing fact. Would the epitome be worth throwing in for the appetite suppresent?


  2. It probably reacts differently depending on the person. So some will get good results and others may not but I've used Oxymax before and that alone will get you good results whether you have the appetite suppresent or not.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Dukethumper View Post
    I have a very interesting idea, I am on a cut right now, I was planning on adding the shielded stack, Oxymax, Epitome, and Vector, due to a chance to increase muscle gains while losing fact. Would the epitome be worth throwing in for the appetite suppresent?
    Epitome is probably one of the most unique approaches to a fat burner on the market. The problem is, most people don't really "get" it. It isn't going to burn fat like most fat burners claim. The approach is totally different.

    When we are in a caloric deficit, the theory is that our body makes hormonal changes. Now, I'm the guy arguing that "starvation mode" isn't real, but I'm not denying the validity of these hormonal changes. Leptin levels, in particular, drop. And the leaner you get the more they drop. Epitome tends to "normalize" leptin levels.

    If you are over 15% bodyfat, I would think the benefits of Epitome will be real, but very subtle. As you get leaner (under 12-13%), the effects will become more pronounced and the appetite suppression most people speak of will be more pronounced because your leptin levels will be higher than if you weren't using it.

    If you can mentally go long periods without a cheat or refeed, epitome will also help you avoid the leptin changes that long term deficits create. In other words, you can go longer without a refeed/cheat and thus see results more quickly because you're not taking a step back to avoid stalling.

  4. So how would it work with the shielded stack?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Epitome is probably one of the most unique approaches to a fat burner on the market. The problem is, most people don't really "get" it. It isn't going to burn fat like most fat burners claim. The approach is totally different.

    When we are in a caloric deficit, the theory is that our body makes hormonal changes. Now, I'm the guy arguing that "starvation mode" isn't real, but I'm not denying the validity of these hormonal changes. Leptin levels, in particular, drop. And the leaner you get the more they drop. Epitome tends to "normalize" leptin levels.

    If you are over 15% bodyfat, I would think the benefits of Epitome will be real, but very subtle. As you get leaner (under 12-13%), the effects will become more pronounced and the appetite suppression most people speak of will be more pronounced because your leptin levels will be higher than if you weren't using it.

    If you can mentally go long periods without a cheat or refeed, epitome will also help you avoid the leptin changes that long term deficits create. In other words, you can go longer without a refeed/cheat and thus see results more quickly because you're not taking a step back to avoid stalling.
    Or how would it work with Vector due to Vector making more appetite
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  6. I think OxyMax will have you covered for appetite suppression. I think adding something like BRITE or a topical would be more beneficial and provide another angle/pathway of fat loss...

    GlycoShield-GDA (Capped/Oral Non-Stim)
    LipoShield-Fat Gain Inhibitor (Powdered/Drinkable Non-Stim)
    OxyMax-Appetite Suppression+Thermogenic (Capped/Oral Stim)
    BRITE-Conversion Of Inactive White Fat Cells Into Metabolically Active Beige/Brite Fat Cells (Sublingual Non Stim)
    SuperNova-For Subcutaneous Fat (Topical Non-Stim)

    Has the profile for Vector been released yet?

  7. Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

    Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

    Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

    Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

    Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.
    Over 20% fat you probably have some sort of leptin resistance as well which is in part what the next part of the shielded stack WILL tackle amongst other things.

    Some GDAand fat burning ingredients Reduce leptin so make sure you take Epitome away from those dosings IMO

  9. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Not really sure. It should have those effects regardless of what you are taking it with. But if you're increasing appetite then you will either diminish Epitome's appetite suppression effects or fight them. Regardless, if you are over 20% bodyfat, the effects of epitome short term will be minimal. I'd rather you not use it at this point, rather than be disappointed and not have faith in it when it was appropriate.

    Why are you stacking all this stuff with a muscle builder? It doesn't seem like you have a solid plan in place? I used to do this a lot too - I felt that if I found the right combination of fat burners, the weight would just come off and everyone would be wondering what I did.

    Having a plan, showing up and putting in the work to execute that plan, and being consistent will be 100X more effective than any stack of supplements you will come up with.
    I have heard both good and bad. Like most people I would say its something you have to try for yourself in order to see how it works for you. There are always other options.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by InItForGainz View Post
    I think OxyMax will have you covered for appetite suppression. I think adding something like BRITE or a topical would be more beneficial and provide another angle/pathway of fat loss...

    GlycoShield-GDA (Capped/Oral Non-Stim)
    LipoShield-Fat Gain Inhibitor (Powdered/Drinkable Non-Stim)
    OxyMax-Appetite Suppression+Thermogenic (Capped/Oral Stim)
    BRITE-Conversion Of Inactive White Fat Cells Into Metabolically Active Beige/Brite Fat Cells (Sublingual Non Stim)
    SuperNova-For Subcutaneous Fat (Topical Non-Stim)

    Has the profile for Vector been released yet?
    Matt would have a better answer on how his products will work with the above. since my diet is very unusually i would be taking pills/powders every 2-3 hours until about 30 min prior to meals. then repeat .

    Everything is diet depending.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Dukethumper View Post
    So how would it work with the shielded stack?
    how are you going to be dosing the stack.

    i would potentially dose it with the liposheild 2 hours before the glycoshield

    It starts becoming complex IMO if you start straying away from the intended stack Epitome is intended for

  12. Quote Originally Posted by RecompMan View Post
    how are you going to be dosing the stack.

    i would potentially dose it with the liposheild 2 hours before the glycoshield

    It starts becoming complex IMO if you start straying away from the intended stack Epitome is intended for
    I was thinking mixing Lyposhield with my preworkout and taking Glycoshield with my first meal with Lyposhield again

  13. Quote Originally Posted by RecompMan View Post
    Over 20% fat you probably have some sort of leptin resistance as well which is in part what the next part of the shielded stack WILL tackle amongst other things.

    Some GDAand fat burning ingredients Reduce leptin so make sure you take Epitome away from those dosings IMO
    Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

    This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

    So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
    @dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

    This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

    So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
    @dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.
    At higher body fat levels, leptin levels are elevated and leptin resistance is very high. Leptin generally sends a satiation signal, which tells us we've eaten enough and STOP. Leptin resistance means that your brain isn't seeing this signal, and keeps generating that "EAT EAT" message.

    As well, as Leptin levels rise over normal, and Leptin resistance becomes a major factor, the body is also screaming to hold onto that extra bodyfat, and metabolism tanks. It's a highly destructive, perpetuating cycle that makes it incredibly difficult to drop from higher body fat levels (25%>) down to normal range.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    At higher body fat levels, leptin levels are elevated and leptin resistance is very high. Leptin generally sends a satiation signal, which tells us we've eaten enough and STOP. Leptin resistance means that your brain isn't seeing this signal, and keeps generating that "EAT EAT" message.

    As well, as Leptin levels rise over normal, and Leptin resistance becomes a major factor, the body is also screaming to hold onto that extra bodyfat, and metabolism tanks. It's a highly destructive, perpetuating cycle that makes it incredibly difficult to drop from higher body fat levels (25%>) down to normal range.
    This is what I would want it for.
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  16. @dsade ... for someone with higher body fat levels, what would you recommend stacking with Epitome? Alphaburn? Defuse? AA? Supernova?
    Can you also provide some recommendations on optimal timing to use the products you recommend?

  17. i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
    What would you recommend? Iím also considering OL Assass1nate and Primeval Labs Pyretic

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Josh141090 View Post
    What would you recommend? I’m also considering OL Assass1nate and Primeval Labs Pyretic
    i dont' have experience with either but imo pyretic looks like a nice product for a stim free fat burner
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Josh141090 View Post
    @dsade ... for someone with higher body fat levels, what would you recommend stacking with Epitome? Alphaburn? Defuse? AA? Supernova?
    Can you also provide some recommendations on optimal timing to use the products you recommend?
    What is your diet protocol like? What range are you in for bodyfat %? IMO if you are 25%+ and not doing a large volume of exercise and/or dieting with a large caloric deficit, Epitome will have an effect but it may be less noticeable than what most people expect. After you have been dieting for a while and are at a lower bodyfat % you can use epitome to help push progress without needing as many cheat meals and without having a leptin crash sabotage you.

    For some people, Epitome has a strong appetite suppressing effect but not for everyone. If you have normal leptin response and dieting is causing your leptin levels to drop - then it will likely keep your appetite at bay because it will help keep those leptin levels higher as if you were not dieting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    i wasn't a fan of epitome, I didn't notice anything....but like others have said it could be dependent on users...I just don't have a reason to use it again personally
    What was your bodyfat %? What was your expectation? Epitome is not at all your typical weight loss agent and it is a little hard for us to explain how to fit it into the strategy for weight loss...we are working on that. I think Defuse has a similar issue- a lot of people use it daily like it is a regular fat burner...and while there is a protocol for daily use, it needs to fit into an overall strategy.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    What is your diet protocol like? What range are you in for bodyfat %? IMO if you are 25%+ and not doing a large volume of exercise and/or dieting with a large caloric deficit, Epitome will have an effect but it may be less noticeable than what most people expect. After you have been dieting for a while and are at a lower bodyfat % you can use epitome to help push progress without needing as many cheat meals and without having a leptin crash sabotage you.

    For some people, Epitome has a strong appetite suppressing effect but not for everyone. If you have normal leptin response and dieting is causing your leptin levels to drop - then it will likely keep your appetite at bay because it will help keep those leptin levels higher as if you were not dieting.



    What was your bodyfat %? What was your expectation? Epitome is not at all your typical weight loss agent and it is a little hard for us to explain how to fit it into the strategy for weight loss...we are working on that. I think Defuse has a similar issue- a lot of people use it daily like it is a regular fat burner...and while there is a protocol for daily use, it needs to fit into an overall strategy.
    it was a few years ago at this point, probably between 15 and 17% and like any fat burner, I just want to see some improved body shape, less visable body fat and not to feel like trash while taking it, which usually is only from crazy stimulants
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    it was a few years ago at this point, probably between 15 and 17% and like any fat burner, I just want to see some improved body shape, less visable body fat and not to feel like trash while taking it, which usually is only from crazy stimulants
    Yeah, so the idea behind epitome is that when we diet, we have some changes that make long-term success more difficult. One of these big metabolic changes involves leptin which regulates appetite and metabolic rate (among other things). I think you probably understand leptin - but for others - the idea is that our fat cells release leptin as they fill, and thus the more we fill fat, the more leptin is released. Leptin, as it gets to our brain, signals our brain to "increase" metabolic processes and turns off hunger/makes us full.

    As our fat cells shrink, leptin levels go in reverse and drop. This obviously increases our hunger, but also is an underlying mechanism for the "metabolic slowdown" that supposedly happens with dieting. This leptin drop creates a double-edged sword - our metabolism is slower and we are hungrier. If you have ever been on a severe diet with lots of exercise for a period of time - you may have one day woken up and been ravenous and out-of-control with your cravings for things - that's an extreme effect of leptin dropping.

    One way to combat this leptin drop is to have cheat meals - which are great but they have to be infrequent and even if they are infrequent they will set your caloric deficit back a little. Most people accept this because it's 1 step back and 2 steps forward.

    If you are very lean (near or below 10% for instance), then leptin will be low because you have so little fat on your body - which also increases hunger and causes a more aggressive response to caloric restriction. I hate to use the term starvation mode but it's the basic idea.

    And if you are extremely obese you probably have a lot of leptin floating around but it no longer works - you have become resistant to its effects because it has been elevated so much for so long.

    What epitome does is "normalize" leptin levels. So if you are obese and have elevated leptin, it will actually help lower the leptin levels and combat the leptin resistence that is seen.

    If you are lean, it will bring up leptin levels even though you have low bodyfat (which is why some people claim it is such a great appetite suppresant)

    And if you use it long-term during a diet, it will help to avoid the leptin crashes from dieting, which will allow you to not require as many cheat meals and thus not have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward - you can just keep dieting and leptin will stay in range.

    So, it's not exactly a "fat burner" per se - it's just part of the arsenal. It's a very different approach than you see in any other product, in my humble opinion.

    But for straight appetite suppression, a single stand-alone burner, other products may at least promise more.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah, actually, at higher BF epitome should reduce leptin levels. This is why people with higher BF may actually see am increase in appetite with it. It normalized leptin meaning it will raise or lower it situationally.

    This is why I was saying that short term it may disappoint but will still have long term benefits. It will lower leptin levels in obese people, which will increase hunger at first. But with continued reduction in leptin levels, it should allow you to restore insulin sensitivity over time.

    So, with long term use it will have a positive impact on composition. But for someone treating it like a normal fat burner and trying to stack everything they can for short term results...they will probably be disappointed. I would rather the product wasn't associated with such attempts because it just lends to the idea it doesn't work and that just isn't true.
    @dsade cam chime in of course. I think this is one of the big obstacles we face at evomuse...it is hard to really get each product and see how it applies.
    @OP If you’re at ~18%+ BF but not obese or afflicted with diabetes or lepton resistence then your body should be able to shed fat without much of a problem if your diet’s in check. In such a scenario more ‘direct’ fat burners will be of the most help. Think products with stims (not too much caffeine (300mg+ a day) tho as that increases cortisol) and substances that liberate fatty acids. Yohimbine may be good if you tolerate it well.
    Once you’re sub 18% tho and especially if you’re eating keto or otherwise low-carb (<75g a day) then epitome will be useful. I haven’t tried it yet myself but theoretically it looks like a great product and I’ll be using it during my next cut. It’ll also be useful if, like me, eating 150g+ carbs without substantial fat or fructose or sucrose, a day on the regular is hard for you

    I’m keen to hear what folks who’ve tried epitome have to say about it

  24. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah, so the idea behind epitome is that when we diet, we have some changes that make long-term success more difficult. One of these big metabolic changes involves leptin which regulates appetite and metabolic rate (among other things). I think you probably understand leptin - but for others - the idea is that our fat cells release leptin as they fill, and thus the more we fill fat, the more leptin is released. Leptin, as it gets to our brain, signals our brain to "increase" metabolic processes and turns off hunger/makes us full.

    As our fat cells shrink, leptin levels go in reverse and drop. This obviously increases our hunger, but also is an underlying mechanism for the "metabolic slowdown" that supposedly happens with dieting. This leptin drop creates a double-edged sword - our metabolism is slower and we are hungrier. If you have ever been on a severe diet with lots of exercise for a period of time - you may have one day woken up and been ravenous and out-of-control with your cravings for things - that's an extreme effect of leptin dropping.

    One way to combat this leptin drop is to have cheat meals - which are great but they have to be infrequent and even if they are infrequent they will set your caloric deficit back a little. Most people accept this because it's 1 step back and 2 steps forward.

    If you are very lean (near or below 10% for instance), then leptin will be low because you have so little fat on your body - which also increases hunger and causes a more aggressive response to caloric restriction. I hate to use the term starvation mode but it's the basic idea.

    And if you are extremely obese you probably have a lot of leptin floating around but it no longer works - you have become resistant to its effects because it has been elevated so much for so long.

    What epitome does is "normalize" leptin levels. So if you are obese and have elevated leptin, it will actually help lower the leptin levels and combat the leptin resistence that is seen.

    If you are lean, it will bring up leptin levels even though you have low bodyfat (which is why some people claim it is such a great appetite suppresant)

    And if you use it long-term during a diet, it will help to avoid the leptin crashes from dieting, which will allow you to not require as many cheat meals and thus not have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward - you can just keep dieting and leptin will stay in range.

    So, it's not exactly a "fat burner" per se - it's just part of the arsenal. It's a very different approach than you see in any other product, in my humble opinion.

    But for straight appetite suppression, a single stand-alone burner, other products may at least promise more.
    Also, I have a question. So I’ve heard that the ‘boost’ in lepton levels refeeds give is from the filling up of fat cells. For recent refeeds I’ve been taking Evomuse’ Defuse, which is a nutrient partitioner that’s meant to reduce the amount of fat gain from chest meals and refeeds. Would taking Defuse be detrimental to the effectiveness of the refeed? What about for GDAs like Performax Slinmax, bitter melon etc?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by u_e_s_i View Post
    Also, I have a question. So Iíve heard that the Ďboostí in lepton levels refeeds give is from the filling up of fat cells. For recent refeeds Iíve been taking Evomuseí Defuse, which is a nutrient partitioner thatís meant to reduce the amount of fat gain from chest meals and refeeds. Would taking Defuse be detrimental to the effectiveness of the refeed? What about for GDAs like Performax Slinmax, bitter melon etc?
    What are the cheat meals like? Are they higher carbs than usual? Higher fat? SlinMax can help if it's a high carb meal, you will feel less bloated and sluggish. It can also help create insane pumps after the meal. If your cheat is high fat and calories then Defuse or LipoShield would be better.

    With that said, you really need to play around and see what works best. If you are going 3 or 4 weeks with no cheats or refeeds, then you might want to try not using a GDA or similar and see how your body reacts.
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