Cutting Cycle Final Thoughts/Final Questions

[P.brow17]

Whats good AM community. There are some final issues I'm hoping to address before starting my cutting cycle on Monday. Sorry for ripping through the forums with questions. This cut is sort of my last hoorah before I go to law school in the fall, and I'm trying to get as lean as F****** possible before going through 3 years of hell.
I'm 5'9, 160 lbs, 12-15% BF. I Already posted a thread with my current stack, dosing schedule, diet regimin, lifting routine, and daily scheduling of food and supps. Thread is titled Cutting Stack Final-ish Draft, can't post link for you guys or I would.

For Fat Loss:
EC stack - self-explanatory, 1 dose at Wake-up, 1 dose either 4 hours later or PWO
Evomuse Alphaburn - AYhcl - 1 dose at Wake-up, 1 Dose before cardio
Reduce XT - Cortisol Control - 1 dose at Wake-up, 1 dose mid day, and 1 dose before bed
Evomuse Evisc Smolder - Targeting lower subcutaneous - 1 application, following morning shower
Purple Wraath - pre/intra BCAA to help with cal deficit - 1 scoop Pre, occasionally 1 scoop in the afternoon on workout days
GreenMAG - post creatine to help with glycogen stores, 1 scoop post workout
Dymatize Casein - My only protein with slow absorbtion - 1 scoop with last meal

Staples:
Orange Triad - Multi - 3 Capsules with first meal, 2 capsules with last meal
1000mg Fish oil - 6 capsules scattered throughout unfasted period
200mg Potassium/ 500mg Magnesium - taken 2 hours before bed
L-Glutamine - 2-10 grams before bed
Calcium - 600mg in the morning, 1200mg before bed
Chromium Picolinate - 200mg with meals

My diet is immaculate, my gym attendance is 100%, and cardio is never missed. My question lies in how I can maximize my fat loss stack to the nth degree with additions to what I already have. I know I've already invested a lot of money, but I've allocated a large amount of funds from my job for this specific reason, so without intending to sound like a chach, money is not a concern of mine at this point in time. Here's what I got for you:

First Question: Thoughts on moving to a more powerful Caffeine supplement, rather than CVS 200mg Caffeine, to stack with daily Ephedrine?

Second Question: Thoughts on avoiding creatine altogether until cutting cycle is over/continue taking postWO, or only taking on re-feeds?

Third Question: Thoughts on adding additional supplements? I was looking into:

--PES Shift - fat burner with forskolin
--OxyMax XT - fat burner with forskolin
--ASSAS1Nate - fat burner with glucose metabolizer
--PES Norcodrene - thermo Fat burner with caffeine(would negate the caffeine from EC)
--PES AnaBeta - Bulking agent with forskolin
--PES Alpha T-2 - Bulking agent with forskolin [designed for bulk diets, with I'm not on]
--PES Forslean/Komodo Forslean - Pure forskolin
--PES High Volume - PreWO w/ CM, Arginine, and agmatine [Really interested in taking second ephedrine dose with this preworkout]
--OL BLOODSHR3D - PreWO w/ fat metabolizers
--TTA-500 - fat loss agent w/ electrolytes [unsure since already supping magnesium and potassium daily]
--Evomuse DCP - Fat burning with PPAR receptors
--Evomuse GutHealth - Probiotic for digestion
--Brite/Supernova/Abliderate Adv - Topical targeting fat deposits
--NOW 7-Keto-DHEA Lean Gels - Natural metoblism booster with 7-Keto-DHEA, CLA, EGCG, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Rhodolia
--RK-500 - fat loss and body comp aid with Rasberry Ketones

Those are just the one's that stood out to me from people's personal exeriences. Except the NOW Gels, which I just found on amazon and thought had potential.

Also, I did a lot of research on products like Erase and Lean Xtreme, but I ultimately concluded that the cort control from reduce in addition would be over-doing it. Correct if I'm wrong.

Any body that has the time to share some insights, you're the homie. Also will gladly give reps.

 

[vujade]

I would look into SNS TTA-500 and Thryocaps. Plus maybe some Gut Health to get your digestion in check.

Otherwise, you have a pretty solid stack to begin with, and it you add to much it will get to the point of
diminishing returns.

 

[The Solution]

Drop:
-You could drop the glutamine, its not necessary. You would be better off using 2,000-5,000 IU of Vitamin D to help with overall mood. People get plenty of glutamine via their diet, and the only real benefit you will get from it will be small digestion benefits. As far as muscle recovery it wont really do much at all.
- Casein.. Not needed. Just eat a meal or use your whey and mix a fat source with it. Could also mix with milk to make it a blend. The need for a "slow digesting" source is simply marketing. Meeting protein intake is far more important in the 24 hour period.

** You should never stop taking creatine. leave it in. Its store intra-cellular not extra cellular, and its vital for performance, endurance, and recovery.

Things you could add:
-Take a full 6 caps of OT to get the full benefit of the digestion aid and joint aid.
Make sure your getting 2-3g of EPA/DHA in your fishoil. That is essential. Who knows based off 1,000mg is enough to reach those levels which is what you want.
-Gut Health is a staple. one of the best supplements anyone can take. You should add that in right away.
-Buy Bulk Forskolin 95 (PES, Olympus Labs, or Komodo) take 50-100mg daily.


Your already taking plenty. Let the diet and training do the work. Supplements play such a small role in the grand scheme of things. more is not always better. You have a good setup.

 

[P.brow17]

You could drop the glutamine, its not necessary. You would be better off using 2,000-5,000 IU of Vitamin D to help with overall mood. People get plenty of glutamine via their diet, and the only real benefit you will get from it will be small digestion benefits. As far as muscle recovery it wont really do much at all.

I've read a lot of studies suggesting that consuming a couple grams of l-glutamine not only modulate fat cell metabolism, but also boost GH levels. Even Lyle recommends dosing from 2-10g before bed, even suggesting that at a minimum, it can help achieve better sleep on a low carb diet.

Casein.. Not needed. Just eat a meal or use your whey and mix a fat source with it. Could also mix with milk to make it a blend. The need for a "slow digesting" source is simply marketing. Meeting protein intake is far more important in the 24 hour period.

I take the casein to avoid the potential insulin spikes that studies have shown to accompany fast-digesting protein like Whey. Also, it helps with satiety on my deficit. But it will never make up the bulk of my protein intake for the day, which comes from chicken, tilapia, cod, and egg whites. Regarding the fat intake, I always add atleast 2 tbsp MCT oil to the casein, and it usually is the last thing I consume in my feeding period. And again, Lyle recommends casein as the optimal powdered source of protein on a low carb cutting diet.

** You should never stop taking creatine. leave it in. Its store intra-cellular not extra cellular, and its vital for performance, endurance, and recovery.

Excellent! I will definitely make sure to regularly consume my creatine. Good to know the green MAG will be doing more than accumulating dust for the next 6 weeks.

Things you could add:
-Take a full 6 caps of OT to get the full benefit of the digestion aid and joint aid.
Make sure your getting 2-3g of EPA/DHA in your fishoil. That is essential. Who knows based off 1,000mg is enough to reach those levels which is what you want.
-Gut Health is a staple. one of the best supplements anyone can take. You should add that in right away.
-Buy Bulk Forskolin 95 (PES, Olympus Labs, or Komodo) take 50-100mg daily.

Interesting about the Orange Triad. Everything I read online has people recommending only 3 pills a day. But with a calorie deficit and stims, I guess its better to be safe than sorry. I'll be sure to take 6 from now on. Regarding the fish oil, I can assure you I am getting that amount of 3g of EPA/DHA daily. Cardiovascular issues are not something I take with a grain of salt, and I value my omega-3's along with my multi much much more than any other supplements I take. Lastly, I'll definitely look into Gut Health and Forskolin then. Thanks for taking the time to offer your advice, it is greatly appreciated!

 

[P.brow17]

I would look into SNS TTA-500 and Thryocaps. Plus maybe some Gut Health to get your digestion in check.

Otherwise, you have a pretty solid stack to begin with, and it you add to much it will get to the point of
diminishing returns.

I'll definitely look into those, thanks for the advice vujade

 

[P.brow17]

I'm honestly shocked that no one has recommended adding one of the stim-free fat burners with forskolin or the thermogenic pre-workouts to my stack. Is it an issue of money? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like these would do nothing but complement the EC stack and alphaburn :scratchchin:

 

[The Solution]

I've read a lot of studies suggesting that consuming a couple grams of l-glutamine not only modulate fat cell metabolism, but also boost GH levels. Even Lyle recommends dosing from 2-10g before bed, even suggesting that at a minimum, it can help achieve better sleep on a low carb diet.

that is just wrong..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806122
. However, the suggested reasons for taking glutamine supplements (support for immune system, increased glycogen synthesis, anticatabolic effect) have received little support from well-controlled scientific studies in healthy, well-nourished humans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11822473
We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806121
Strong evidence is presently available for i.v. glutamine supplementation to critically ill patients on parenteral nutrition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12352035
In surgical patients, glutamine supplementation may be associated with a reduction in infectious complication rates and shorter hospital stay without any adverse effect on mortality. In critically ill patients, glutamine supplementation may be associated with a reduction in complication and mortality rates

and i could keep going...

Glutamine will not help in that aspect. If you want better sleep. Get into a proper sleeping pattern, keep lights/noise down. 5 HTP, ZMA, GABA are all better options for getting to sleep then glutamine ever will be.

I take the casein to avoid the potential insulin spikes that studies have shown to accompany fast-digesting protein like Whey. Also, it helps with satiety on my deficit. But it will never make up the bulk of my protein intake for the day, which comes from chicken, tilapia, cod, and egg whites. Regarding the fat intake, I always add atleast 2 tbsp MCT oil to the casein, and it usually is the last thing I consume in my feeding period. And again, Lyle recommends casein as the optimal powdered source of protein on a low carb cutting diet.

Casein spikes insluin, BCAA's spike insulin, whey spikes insulin, if you eat a steak it spikes insulin. Casein is not necessary one bit bud. If you meet protein in the 24 hour period it wont matter if you have casein, steak, chicken, or a cup of milk mixed with whey. Meeting that intake (1g/lb) in the 24 hour period is all that matter most. If you want satiety blend up a whey shake with 10 ice cubes and make a smoothie, or eat some veggies. That will curb hunger more then a casein protein ever will. And guess what? Much cheaper!

I
Interesting about the Orange Triad. Everything I read online has people recommending only 3 pills a day. But with a calorie deficit and stims, I guess its better to be safe than sorry. I'll be sure to take 6 from now on. Regarding the fish oil, I can assure you I am getting that amount of 3g of EPA/DHA daily. Cardiovascular issues are not something I take with a grain of salt, and I value my omega-3's along with my multi much much more than any other supplements I take. Lastly, I'll definitely look into Gut Health and Forskolin then. Thanks for taking the time to offer your advice, it is greatly appreciated!

It says 6 pills right on the bottle of Orange Triad and 45 servings per day. Hence why you take 6 caps and spread them out 3/3. So take the full dose, not a half dose.

 

[The Solution]

I'm honestly shocked that no one has recommended adding one of the stim-free fat burners with forskolin or the thermogenic pre-workouts to my stack. Is it an issue of money? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like these would do nothing but complement the EC stack and alphaburn :scratchchin:

Your already dropping way too much money on a cutting stack as is. You can lean without half of the stuff you are taking. Supplements play such a minor role in getting that lean. Its almost all diet and training. Supplements are icing on the cake

 

[corsaking]

bump

 

[AntM1564]

Like said in this thread, gluatmine is pretty useless for recovery. Gluatmine alone is poorly absorbed. If it is attached to the amino acid alanine, it is better absorbed. With that in mind, I would suggest PowerMax XT. I know you have Green Mag, but you could always save that for when you bulk, PowerMax XT will have your full dose of creatine covered, l-alanine l-glutamine for recovery, COP and Amento for a boost in endurance and performance which can sometimes be hindered during a cut. Also, glycerol to help with a pump and muscle fullness and a pump which can also be difficult to achieve during a cut.

I agree with some other points as well, you have a lot going on so far. Use what you have and do not add anything to it. Your diet, training and rest will play the biggest roles in your cut.

Again, Gut Health is a great addition and should be used year round. Also, again, do not half dose OT, you will not get all of the benefits that it provides by half dosing it. If it is too expensive to fully dose it, look into other, quality multi vitamins.

 

[P.brow17]

that is just wrong..
and i could keep going...
Glutamine will not help in that aspect. If you want better sleep. Get into a proper sleeping pattern, keep lights/noise down. 5 HTP, ZMA, GABA are all better options for getting to sleep then glutamine ever will be.

Yeah, I’m going to keep taking 2 grams glutamine, every single night, for a couple of reasons:

1) Thousands of people have had exceptional results by following Lyle Mcdonald’s UD 2.0. In this plan, Lyle recommends dosing 2-10 grams before bed, and I’m not ignorant enough to flat out conclude that one of the most well-researched minds in the fitness industry is “just wrong”

2) I didn’t begin taking it until after I had already established a proper sleeping pattern, and after I had already been taking 5 HTP and melatonin. And once I added the glutamine before bed, I noticed a significantly better nights rest than before.

3) I’ve already purchased 2 bottles of it for like 5$ a bottle, and unless you can find conclusive evidence that supplementing L-glutamine before bed will hinder my cut, I’m going to continue “smoking ‘em if I got ‘em”

From Lyle Mcdonald’s book:

“At bedtime, two grams of the amino acid glutamine will increase GH output, which may help with fat mobilization. Larger amounts of glutamine (5-10 grams) appears to improve sleep quality so this is a consideration if you have trouble sleeping on low-carbohydrates.”

“Just realize that the cardio will tend to make you even weaker than you'd already be when you lift. Two more grams of glutamine at bedtime can help with GH release.”

Casein spikes insluin, BCAA's spike insulin, whey spikes insulin, if you eat a steak it spikes insulin. Casein is not necessary one bit bud. If you meet protein in the 24 hour period it wont matter if you have casein, steak, chicken, or a cup of milk mixed with whey. Meeting that intake (1g/lb) in the 24 hour period is all that matter most.

I appreciate you dedicating your time to explaining some of the most elementary aspects of dieting, but I can assure you I am already aware of all of the above.

If you want satiety blend up a whey shake with 10 ice cubes and make a smoothie, or eat some veggies. That will curb hunger more then a casein protein ever will. And guess what? Much cheaper!

THIS, right here, is “just wrong”

Lyle McDonald’s analysis of Boirie Study results:
“Summing up, that study found that whey and casein (the two proteins found in milk) digested at different speeds, with whey being a ‘fast’ protein that spiked amino acid levels before dropping (after 3-4 hours), and casein being a ‘slow’ protein that raised amino acid levels more gradually but remaining stable for an extended period (7-8 hours).”
“Despite the fact that the whey actually stimulated more protein synthesis, the casein had the larger impact on leucine balance; at the end of the feeding period, the body had stored more leucine with the casein. Phrased a bit differently, it looked as if decreasing protein breakdown was more important than increasing protein synthesis in terms of whole body leucine (and therefore, protein balance).”
So you are going to tell me, after reading that, that crushing up a few ice cubes with whey will keep me just as full and the same amount of time as casein?

Again, I’m going to keep taking my Casein, for a couple of reasons:

1) As you’ve stated, if I meet my protein in the 24 hour period, it won’t matter where the source comes from (debatable), and since I’ve already purchased a tub, why should I stop?

2) As of today, the price per pound of ON Casein was $12.78/Pound, compared to the price of ON Whey, which was $11.58/Pound. I think I’ll be able to scrape by even after the ~$1 extrapolation. Not That Much Cheaper!

But thanks to you, I’ve come to the conclusion based on several sources, that the combination of casein and whey together offers that best of both worlds. Since I already have a 4 pound tub of ON Whey, I’ll simply be doing half a scoop of whey, and half a scoop of casein from now on. Much appreciation.

It says 6 pills right on the bottle of Orange Triad and 45 servings per day. Hence why you take 6 caps and spread them out 3/3. So take the full dose, not a half dose.

Thank you for this. Since it is simply unheard of for supplement companies to overdose their product with the intention of forcing customers to have to purchase more at a higher frequency, your reiteration of the direction on the bottle must be the absolute ONLY way to meet my daily nutrition needs.

 

[P.brow17]

Like said in this thread, gluatmine is pretty useless for recovery. Gluatmine alone is poorly absorbed. If it is attached to the amino acid alanine, it is better absorbed. With that in mind, I would suggest PowerMax XT. I know you have Green Mag, but you could always save that for when you bulk, PowerMax XT will have your full dose of creatine covered, l-alanine l-glutamine for recovery, COP and Amento for a boost in endurance and performance which can sometimes be hindered during a cut. Also, glycerol to help with a pump and muscle fullness and a pump which can also be difficult to achieve during a cut.

I agree with some other points as well, you have a lot going on so far. Use what you have and do not add anything to it. Your diet, training and rest will play the biggest roles in your cut.

Again, Gut Health is a great addition and should be used year round. Also, again, do not half dose OT, you will not get all of the benefits that it provides by half dosing it. If it is too expensive to fully dose it, look into other, quality multi vitamins.

Thanks for the advice, seriously looking into Gut Health. Hope to have it ordered Monday!

 

[The Solution]

Yeah, I’m going to keep taking 2 grams glutamine, every single night, for a couple of reasons:

1) Thousands of people have had exceptional results by following Lyle Mcdonald’s UD 2.0. In this plan, Lyle recommends dosing 2-10 grams before bed, and I’m not ignorant enough to flat out conclude that one of the most well-researched minds in the fitness industry is “just wrong”

2) I didn’t begin taking it until after I had already established a proper sleeping pattern, and after I had already been taking 5 HTP and melatonin. And once I added the glutamine before bed, I noticed a significantly better nights rest than before.

3) I’ve already purchased 2 bottles of it for like 5$ a bottle, and unless you can find conclusive evidence that supplementing L-glutamine before bed will hinder my cut, I’m going to continue “smoking ‘em if I got ‘em”

From Lyle Mcdonald’s book:

“At bedtime, two grams of the amino acid glutamine will increase GH output, which may help with fat mobilization. Larger amounts of glutamine (5-10 grams) appears to improve sleep quality so this is a consideration if you have trouble sleeping on low-carbohydrates.”

“Just realize that the cardio will tend to make you even weaker than you'd already be when you lift. Two more grams of glutamine at bedtime can help with GH release.”

Ok.. Please show me scientific knowledge, research to back glutamine aids sleeping and also GH release.
Ill keep posting studies to show you that additional glutamine won't benefit you. But to each their own;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17111006

he addition of glutamine did not affect whole-body protein synthesis post-exercise. The rate of MPS was not different between trials. The addition of glutamine to a CHO + EAA beverage had no effect on post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis or muscle protein synthesis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11822473

glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834123

These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10410846

Although glutamine supplementation may increase plasma glutamine levels, its effect on enhancement of the immune system and prevention of adverse effects of the overtraining syndrome are equivocal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12183472

although the glutamine hypothesis may explain immunodepression related to other stressful conditions such as trauma and burn, plasma glutamine concentration is not likely to play a mechanistic role in exercise-induced immunodepression.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/3/813
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/132/9/2580.pdf
http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/45/1/6

Supplemental glutamine would only benefit us if our intracellular muscle glutamine concentrations were depleted. There are numerous studies that indicate no intracellular muscle glutamine depletion whatsoever following extensive exercise, but even if we do experience some glutamine attenuation.... we are still producing it within us, and getting it through our diet.

In healthy adults, dietary consumption of glutamine has been estimated to be around 5 grams per day (3). Foods such as meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, beans, cabbage, spinach, parsley, beets, ect. are all common sources. A single 3-oz serving of meat contains around 3-4 grams of glutamine. (4)

Now let's add on top of all that, the fact that an average 50 gram protein shake, there's about 4.5+ grams of glutamine. So for a 150 lb individual at only 2 protein shakes a day, that's around 9-10 grams of supplemental glutamine.

I appreciate you dedicating your time to explaining some of the most elementary aspects of dieting, but I can assure you I am already aware of all of the above.

So if you understand any protein source you intake causes an insulin spike. just because you have a casein does not mean its going to minimize anything. It will still illicit your insulin levels to rise and spike. The same can be said with chicken, steak, tuna, protein blends etc...

You just need to focus on meeting your protein intake in the 24 hour period.
Sure anyone can reccomend X or Y Product. Does it mean its 100% Necessary .. no...

if you had 40g of protein from a casein shake and swap it with whole food before bed I can guarentee your results will be exactly the same meeting the same caloric intake when its all said and done.

“Despite the fact that the whey actually stimulated more protein synthesis, the casein had the larger impact on leucine balance; at the end of the feeding period, the body had stored more leucine with the casein. Phrased a bit differently, it looked as if decreasing protein breakdown was more important than increasing protein synthesis in terms of whole body leucine (and therefore, protein balance).”
So you are going to tell me, after reading that, that crushing up a few ice cubes with whey will keep me just as full and the same amount of time as casein?

Because you left out the other 75% of my response regarding eating steak, veggies, chicken, or adding a fat source will do the same exact thing.

Let me re quote that for you:

"If you meet protein in the 24 hour period it wont matter if you have casein, steak, chicken, or a cup of milk mixed with whey."

Casein by itself is not 100% necessary. Why not just buy a blend? Instead of buying 2 protein products and guess what you would save money and kill 2 birds with one stone. Or mix your whey with milk and you have a blend becuase milk is primarily casein.

f you ate a steak to get 40g of protein from your last meal or a 40g casein whey shake. The difference would be minimal in your progress and results
If you want to keep buying casein because you think its a need have fun. Totally not needed.

 

[P.brow17]

Ok.. Please show me scientific knowledge, research to back glutamine aids sleeping and also GH release.
Ill keep posting studies to show you that additional glutamine won't benefit you. But to each their own;

he addition of glutamine did not affect whole-body protein synthesis post-exercise. The rate of MPS was not different between trials. The addition of glutamine to a CHO + EAA beverage had no effect on post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis or muscle protein synthesis

glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.

Although glutamine supplementation may increase plasma glutamine levels, its effect on enhancement of the immune system and prevention of adverse effects of the overtraining syndrome are equivocal.

although the glutamine hypothesis may explain immunodepression related to other stressful conditions such as trauma and burn, plasma glutamine concentration is not likely to play a mechanistic role in exercise-induced immunodepression.

Supplemental glutamine would only benefit us if our intracellular muscle glutamine concentrations were depleted. There are numerous studies that indicate no intracellular muscle glutamine depletion whatsoever following extensive exercise, but even if we do experience some glutamine attenuation.... we are still producing it within us, and getting it through our diet.

In healthy adults, dietary consumption of glutamine has been estimated to be around 5 grams per day (3). Foods such as meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, beans, cabbage, spinach, parsley, beets, ect. are all common sources. A single 3-oz serving of meat contains around 3-4 grams of glutamine. (4)

Now let's add on top of all that, the fact that an average 50 gram protein shake, there's about 4.5+ grams of glutamine. So for a 150 lb individual at only 2 protein shakes a day, that's around 9-10 grams of supplemental glutamine.

You can waste your life away providing as many studies as you want, but none of them will change the fact that I’ve already purchased the glutamine, it is recommended by Lyle McDonald (who unlike Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler, does not benefit in any way from his readers taking glutamine), and I’ve felt actual benefits of it with my sleep. If you want to chalk it up to placebo, then be my guest, but one way or another, I’ve felt my sleep improve. Therefore, I am benefiting from it, and it is aiding my sleep.

So you understand dieting and the aspects of nutrition. You do realize your meeting protein intake correct? So if you had 50g from casein or 50g from steak in protein the difference in everything you are doing would not change. Even if you had whey and added the MCT Oil at the end of the day progress will be 100% the same.
Casein is not necessary. Its a marketing gimmick. If you are reaching your protein intake I don't care who recommends it, it is not necessary at all. Whey protein is not necessary at all if you meet protein intake. Do you think bodybuilders in the 80's and 90's were chugging casein shakes? Nope.. guess what, none of them went catabolic overnight thinking about it either.

I don’t think you grasp the fundamental aspects of a debate, but by telling me that Casein is not necessary, and by telling me Whey isn’t necessary, and by referencing the dietary habits of bodybuilders in the 80’s and 90’s, you are in no way disproving or negating my consumption and intended benefit of Casein. Guess what, casein will still make me full longer. Guess what, casein will still help me meet my macros. Guess what, the tub is on my shelf, so as long as the majority of my macros are met through actual foods, I’m going to continue taking it. And Guess what, it is going to do exactly what I’ve intended for it to do.

Because you left out the other 75% of my response regarding eating steak, veggies, chicken, or adding a fat source will do the same exact thing.
Let me re quote that for you:
"If you meet protein in the 24 hour period it wont matter if you have casein, steak, chicken, or a cup of milk mixed with whey."
Casein by itself is not 100% necessary. Why not just buy a blend? Instead of buying 2 protein products and guess what you would save money and kill 2 birds with one stone. Or mix your whey with milk and you have a blend becuase milk is primarily casein.
f you ate a steak to get 40g of protein from your last meal or a 40g casein whey shake. The difference would be minimal in your progress and results
If you want to keep buying casein because you think its a need have fun. Totally not needed.

Let me re quote this for you:

” Since I already have a 4 pound tub of ON Whey, I’ll simply be doing half a scoop of whey, and half a scoop of casein from now on. Much appreciation.”

For this reason, I am choosing not to “just buy a blend”. I already have both casein and whey, so purchasing a blend would not in fact save me money and kill 2 birds with one stone.

Also, I don’t remember ever implying that after this 6 week cut, I was going to keep buying casein because I think it’s a need. All I stated was that I was going to take it for the next 6 weeks since I’ve already purchased it.

All you’ve offered me since post #7 are very objective views on glutamine and casein, irrelevant information in no way pertinent to our original topics, and zero advice regarding the 3 questions I humbly asked in my original thread post. Keep up the good work!

 

[The Solution]

All you’ve offered me since post #7 are very objective views on glutamine and casein, irrelevant information in no way pertinent to our original topics, and zero advice regarding the 3 questions I humbly asked in my original thread post. Keep up the good work!

Actually I already answered #2 regarding creatine intake, which you agreed to.
I already suggested you increase your OT dosage which you agreed on
I answered #3 and told you Gut health would be a vital aspect which you are looking into . As AntM1564 also suggested then you are replied your going to order it monday.

Caffeine is on you If you energy is fine, why add more? If your struggling you can always add

 

[P.brow17]

Actually I already answered #2 regarding creatine intake, which you agreed to.
I already suggested you increase your OT dosage which you agreed on
I answered #3 and told you Gut health would be a vital aspect which you are looking into . As AntM1564 also suggested and you are going to order it monday.

Yes, you did answer #2 and #3. Both of which prior to Post #7.

Caffeine is on you. If you want more go for it. If energy is fine, no need to

By referencing a more powerful caffeine supplement, I was referring to a more specific fat burning supplement with 200mg caffeine included, rather than just taking a standard 200mg caffeine pill. I've read a lot of topics with people stacking ephedrine with a fat burner rather than just a caffeine pill, but haven't been able to understand if doing so would yield better results. Also, I'm assuming these supplements include more stimulants, would could potentially raise another question of added cardiovascular stress.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

You don't need "stronger" Caffeine - although, if you read the label of the various Drug Store brands - there are a lot of fillers and extra stuff in there. Look at SNS (no affiliation) CAF Tabs for a "cleaner" option - OR GO INSTANT COFFEE - lots of studies use Taster's Choice Instant.

I personally recommend (based solely on a pretty good bunch of studies) to consume Casein Protein. A 50/50 Casein-Whey blend for any daytime supplementation, and ~50g of straight Casein pudding before bed (especially the older you get) ***Or Casein Food like Milk or Cottage Cheese, etc...***. In addition to the research, I'm a firm believer in "Mother Nature Gets It Right" - Any type of Milk is (Mostly) Casein and Whey. The difference may be 1% though - so it's not like doing what The Solution said isn't awesome too - 24 hour totals *are* the main point. JMO.

 

[P.brow17]

You don't need "stronger" Caffeine - although, if you read the label of the various Drug Store brands - there are a lot of fillers and extra stuff in there. Look at SNS (no affiliation) CAF Tabs for a "cleaner" option - OR GO INSTANT COFFEE - lots of studies use Taster's Choice Instant.

I personally recommend (based solely on a pretty good bunch of studies) to consume Casein Protein. A 50/50 Casein-Whey blend for any daytime supplementation, and ~50g of straight Casein pudding before bed (especially the older you get) ***Or Casein Food like Milk or Cottage Cheese, etc...***. In addition to the research, I'm a firm believer in "Mother Nature Gets It Right" - Any type of Milk is (Mostly) Casein and Whey. The difference may be 1% though - so it's not like doing what The Solution said isn't awesome too - 24 hour totals *are* the main point. JMO.

Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend the 50/50 blend post workout as well? Or sticking with just the whey? I honestly haven't been taking a protein powder post workout because I've been meeting my macros throughout the rest of the day, and just been consuming creatine post, but I figure it's worth an ask.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend the 50/50 blend post workout as well? Or sticking with just the whey? I honestly haven't been taking a protein powder post workout because I've been meeting my macros throughout the rest of the day, and just been consuming creatine post, but I figure it's worth an ask.

When we start discussing this minutiae, we are 'in the weeds' or 'majoring in the minors', 24 hour totals are #1 - but, if it's all that's left....

Anything you can get from food is good enough - you don't "need" powder (which is just dehydrated food). So eat Cottage Cheese if you want Casein.

I would do 50/50 all the time, why not? You get the fast plasma spike from Whey, and the slow gelatinous ball of Casein trickling aminos the rest of the time.