Do BCAA's stop fat loss?

EricMM

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Well, this is a complicated subject. In celebration of our 25% off all amino acids sale I wanted to open up a volatile topic. I am not a fan of using BCAA's during cardio. I think during a heavy lift then fine but

Does the addition of Leucine reduce or increase fat loss? Depriving the body of Leucine seems to burn fat. Is this something that can be modulated short term?

I've seen studies showing that Leucine is anabolic in fat cells and also those that show Leucine to be good when dieting. Leucine is anabolic which means that it can certainly seem to cause us to increase the amount of fat cells.

What do you think?




Age (Dordr). 2012 Apr;34(2):371-87. doi: 10.1007/s11357-011-9246-0. Epub 2011 Apr 7.
Differential effect of long-term leucine supplementation on skeletal muscle and adipose tissue in old rats: an insulin signaling pathway approach.

Zeanandin G1, Balage M, Schneider SM, Dupont J, Hébuterne X, Mothe-Satney I, Dardevet D.
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Abstract
Leucine acts as a signal nutrient in promoting protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and adipose tissue via mTOR pathway activation, and may be of interest in age-related sarcopenia. However, hyper-activation of mTOR/S6K1 has been suggested to inhibit the first steps of insulin signaling and finally promote insulin resistance. The impact of long-term dietary leucine supplementation on insulin signaling and sensitivity was investigated in old rats (18 months old) fed a 15% protein diet supplemented (LEU group) or not (C group) with 4.5% leucine for 6 months. The resulting effects on muscle and fat were examined. mTOR/S6K1 signaling pathway was not significantly altered in muscle from old rats subjected to long-term dietary leucine excess, whereas it was increased in adipose tissue. Overall glucose tolerance was not changed but insulin-stimulated glucose transport was improved in muscles from leucine-supplemented rats related to improvement in Akt expression and phosphorylation in response to food intake. No change in skeletal muscle mass was observed, whereas perirenal adipose tissue mass accumulated (+45%) in leucine-supplemented rats. A prolonged leucine supplementation in old rats differently modulates mTOR/S6K pathways in muscle and adipose tissue. It does not increase muscle mass but seems to promote hypertrophy and hyperplasia of adipose tissue that did not result in insulin resistance.

Diabetes. 2010 Jan;59(1):17-25. doi: 10.2337/db09-0929. Epub 2009 Oct 15.
Leucine deprivation decreases fat mass by stimulation of lipolysis in white adipose tissue and upregulation of uncoupling protein 1 (UCP1) in brown adipose tissue.

Cheng Y1, Meng Q, Wang C, Li H, Huang Z, Chen S, Xiao F, Guo F.
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OBJECTIVE:
White adipose tissue (WAT) and brown adipose tissue (BAT) play distinct roles in adaptation to changes in nutrient availability, with WAT serving as an energy store and BAT regulating thermogenesis. We previously showed that mice maintained on a leucine-deficient diet unexpectedly experienced a dramatic reduction in abdominal fat mass. The cellular mechanisms responsible for this loss, however, are unclear. The goal of current study is to investigate possible mechanisms.
RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:
Male C57BL/6J mice were fed either control, leucine-deficient, or pair-fed diets for 7 days. Changes in metabolic parameters and expression of genes and proteins related to lipid metabolism were analyzed in WAT and BAT.
RESULTS:
We found that leucine deprivation for 7 days increases oxygen consumption, suggesting increased energy expenditure. We also observed increases in lipolysis and expression of beta-oxidation genes and decreases in expression of lipogenic genes and activity of fatty acid synthase in WAT, consistent with increased use and decreased synthesis of fatty acids, respectively. Furthermore, we observed that leucine deprivation increases expression of uncoupling protein (UCP)-1 in BAT, suggesting increased thermogenesis.
CONCLUSIONS:
We show for the first time that elimination of dietary leucine produces significant metabolic changes in WAT and BAT. The effect of leucine deprivation on UCP1 expression is a novel and unexpected observation and suggests that the observed increase in energy expenditure may reflect an increase in thermogenesis in BAT. Further investigation will be required to determine the relative contribution of UCP1 upregulation and thermogenesis in BAT to leucine deprivation-stimulated fat loss.

Front Biosci (Landmark Ed). 2015 Jan 1;20:796-813.
Nutritional and regulatory roles of leucine in muscle growth and fat reduction.

Duan Y1, Li F1, Liu H1, Li Y1, Liu Y1, Kong X1, Zhang Y1, Deng D1, Tang Y1, Feng Z1, Wu G1, Yin Y1.
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Abstract
The metabolic roles for L-leucine, an essential branched-chain amino acid (BCAA), go far beyond serving exclusively as a building block for de novo protein synthesis. Growing evidence shows that leucine regulates protein and lipid metabolism in animals. Specifically, leucine activates the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) signaling pathway, including the 70 kDa ribosomal protein S6 kinase 1 (S6K1) and eukaryotic initiation factor (eIF) 4E-binding protein 1 (4EBP1) to stimulate protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and adipose tissue and to promote mitochondrial biogenesis, resulting in enhanced cellular respiration and energy partitioning. Activation of cellular energy metabolism favors fatty acid oxidation to CO2 and water in adipocytes, lean tissue gain in young animals, and alleviation of muscle protein loss in aging adults, lactating mammals, and food-deprived subjects. As a functional amino acid, leucine holds great promise to enhance the growth, efficiency of food utilization, and health of animals and humans.
 
john.patterson

john.patterson

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.....Does the addition of Leucine reduce or increase fat loss? Depriving the body of Leucine seems to burn fat. Is this something that can be modulated short term?....
From what that study states, it's definitely possible that reducing leucine may have an impact on the rate of fat loss. But the study doesn't speak at all about muscle. I feel that at the end of the day, the main goal of dieting for most lifters/physique athletes is to maintain as much muscle as possible while losing body fat. Countless studies have been shown that leucine is very protein sparing and can play a large role in maintaining muscle mass while dieting. So even if leucine is decreasing fat loss slightly, I would still continue to use it based on the research showing its muscle sparing and anabolic properties.

I'd be interested to see the same study done that also tracks muscle size and density during periods of leucine deprivation. My guess it these subjects lost some serious muscle along during this too
 

EricMM

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My theory is that Leucine is anabolic in all tissue. In a calorie surplus I think Leucine increases fat gain but for the average person I think that's the case. For bodybuilders I wouldn't take them during fasted cardio but that's just me.

Many people feel that they don't get the same fat lost effect on fasted cardio. I think if Leuicine is a "sparing" molecule, I think it will spare the fat loss as well.
 
john.patterson

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My theory is that Leucine is anabolic in all tissue. In a calorie surplus I think Leucine increases fat gain but for the average person I think that's the case. For bodybuilders I wouldn't take them during fasted cardio but that's just me.

Many people feel that they don't get the same fat lost effect on fasted cardio. I think if Leuicine is a "sparing" molecule, I think it will spare the fat loss as well.
I would agree. But I would take slower fat loss and increased muscle retention any day over faster fat loss with the risk of losing more muscle tissue.
 
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I think 7-15 grams of anything has almost no effect on fat loss, much less BCAA's.

Saying BCAA's slow fat loss is like saying Whey Protein slows fat loss. Its actually the opposite.
 
twuncher

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Leucine spikes insulin, you may want to look into HMB which does not.
 
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Leucine spikes insulin, you may want to look into HMB which does not.
So does whey. The insulin spike is so small and so quick to clear is almost zero effect on anything. Its 7g...is someone actually going to tell me that 7g of BCAA's is going to cause an insulin spike so large its actually going to inhibit fat loss? Its just amazing how these things spread.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I think 7-15 grams of anything has almost no effect on fat loss, much less BCAA's.

Saying BCAA's slow fat loss is like saying Whey Protein slows fat loss. Its actually the opposite.
There is some research showing that BCAAs and whey can increase LBM and reduce body fat %
http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-6-S1-P1

and another study found that BCAAs preserved LBM better than carbohydrates during a calorie-restricted diet (+0.4kg vs -0.9kg), but didn't quite lose as much fat with the BCAAs as carbs (-0.6kg vs 1.4kg).
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-015-0112-9

Additionally, a third study found that intra-workout EAAs, carbs, and EAAs + carbs all increased fat-free mass (with EAA + carbs increasing the most), and all three groups noted decreased fat mass, but there were no significant differences between the groups.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16456674
 
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Most of those measure bf%...not actual fat loss. More muscle, same fat mean less bf% but you really didn't "lose" fat.
 
The_Old_Guy

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I donlt care how much fat I lose in 40 minutes. I'm more concerned with the other 23h and 20 minutes of elevated energy expenditure. I was under the impression that the fasted vs fed cardio question was answered - doesn't matter. On the flip side I don't like doing cardio with a full feeling, so there are practical reasons other than fat loss to do fasted cardio. Also, the idea that doing some sane cardio "will cause muscle loss, bro" - is bro lore. So BCAA use for that reason, is questionable. And EAA would be prferable...assuming you cant for some reason have FOOD anywhere around training.
 
Jiigzz

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The problem with rats and mice is that they have greater amounts of BAT tissue than humans, so any conclusion you draw from that would not translate to humans directly.

Also, fat loss is a measure of Calorie restriction over a long period and not just a few minutes/ hours. If I dont eat food for 3-4 hours, lipolysis is increased, but I can still get fatter by the end of the day.

Leucine is just a mTOR stimulator and you still need substrate in order to build more tissue
 
thebigt

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I donlt care how much fat I lose in 40 minutes. I'm more concerned with the other 23h and 20 minutes of elevated energy expenditure. I was under the impression that the fasted vs fed cardio question was answered - doesn't matter. On the flip side I don't like doing cardio with a full feeling, so there are practical reasons other than fat loss to do fasted cardio. Also, the idea that doing some sane cardio "will cause muscle loss, bro" - is bro lore. So BCAA use for that reason, is questionable. And EAA would be prferable...assuming you cant for some reason have FOOD anywhere around training.
I wonder how many guys actually reach the 40 minute mark doing cardio? fasted/fed/with bcca's/without bcaa's, to me what is most important is just reaching that 40 minute mark.
 
cheftepesh1

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Good information
 
Gorgoroth

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Is it just me or doesn't just come down to whether or not you want to spend the money on protien fractions or whole protien?

I use BCAA during weight training in the early morning hours just out of convience, I don't think it makes that big a difference in performance or results. I just don't have time to eat anything.
 
john.patterson

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I donlt care how much fat I lose in 40 minutes. I'm more concerned with the other 23h and 20 minutes of elevated energy expenditure. I was under the impression that the fasted vs fed cardio question was answered - doesn't matter. On the flip side I don't like doing cardio with a full feeling, so there are practical reasons other than fat loss to do fasted cardio. Also, the idea that doing some sane cardio "will cause muscle loss, bro" - is bro lore. So BCAA use for that reason, is questionable. And EAA would be prferable...assuming you cant for some reason have FOOD anywhere around training.
I agree. I was referring to leucine depletion as a whole over a 24hr period as well. I don't think BCAA or leucine supplementation during cardio or training makes any difference, but depleting leucine and restricting amino acid intake over a prolonged period (days or weeks) would definitely impact MPS and create a catabolic environment in the body which would eventually lead to lost muscle tissue; wouldn't you agree?

I understand the study is referring to fat loss, but at some point there needs to be a concern and priority for sparing lean mass.
 
The_Old_Guy

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I agree. I was referring to leucine depletion as a whole over a 24hr period as well. I don't think BCAA or leucine supplementation during cardio or training makes any difference, but depleting leucine and restricting amino acid intake over a prolonged period (days or weeks) would definitely impact MPS and create a catabolic environment in the body which would eventually lead to lost muscle tissue; wouldn't you agree?

I understand the study is referring to fat loss, but at some point there needs to be a concern and priority for sparing lean mass.
I don't know man, what trainee in a first world country, isn't going to be able to take in his/her 1.6-2.4g/kg every day though? I guess you're right if someone can't eat protein. Heck, I'm only intaking(word?) 68g a day now doing Keto, and while I don't have a DXA, I'm not losing much, if any muscle tissue. "Losing Muscle" should be added to "Too much Estrogen" or "Too much Cortisol" as things most bro's worry too much about :D
 
john.patterson

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I don't know man, what trainee in a first world country, isn't going to be able to take in his/her 1.6-2.4g/kg every day though? I guess you're right if someone can't eat protein. Heck, I'm only intaking(word?) 68g a day now doing Keto, and while I don't have a DXA, I'm not losing much, if any muscle tissue. "Losing Muscle" should be added to "Too much Estrogen" or "Too much Cortisol" as things most bro's worry too much about :D
Valid point, muscle loss is definitely an over-hyped buzzword in the supplement world. I just always try to be cautious and consume an adequate amount of protein while dieting; but from what you've been following I shouldn't be as concerned haha
 
bdcc

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If fasted cardio doesn't outperform fed cardio in terms of body composition changes in human research, I would be reluctant to infer that consumption of any food would blunt fat loss (total calories and macronutrients being standardised accordingly) let alone a few grams of an amino acid.

We can hypothesise based on acute human data or animal data but when there is already human research testing that hypothesis I would be inclined too put more faith in that.

Both groups showed a significant loss of weight (P = 0.0005) and fat mass (P = 0.02) from baseline, but no significant between-group differences were noted in any outcome measure. These findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-014-0054-7

There is some research showing that BCAAs and whey can increase LBM and reduce body fat %
Consuming a supplement containing branched-chain amino acids during a resistance-training program increases lean mass, muscle strength and fat loss | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text

and another study found that BCAAs preserved LBM better than carbohydrates during a calorie-restricted diet (+0.4kg vs -0.9kg), but didn't quite lose as much fat with the BCAAs as carbs (-0.6kg vs 1.4kg).
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-015-0112-9

Additionally, a third study found that intra-workout EAAs, carbs, and EAAs + carbs all increased fat-free mass (with EAA + carbs increasing the most), and all three groups noted decreased fat mass, but there were no significant differences between the groups.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16456674
For anyone that isn't aware, the Dudgeon study had an interesting letter to the editor claiming that their conclusions don't match the data they presented (as well as a reply from the authors).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4865017/
 
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If fasted cardio doesn't outperform fed cardio in terms of body composition changes in human research, I would be reluctant to infer that consumption of any food would blunt fat loss (total calories and macronutrients being standardised accordingly) let alone a few grams of an amino acid.

We can hypothesise based on acute human data or animal data but when there is already human research testing that hypothesis I would be inclined too put more faith in that.



https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-014-0054-7
I don't like how it was restricted to women given the major muscle mass and hormonal differences.
 

EricMM

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Yeah, thats the problem with so many of the studies. They are in an odd target group or looking at oddball feeding. It would be nice to see in well trained humans what the effects are...
 
The_Old_Guy

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I haven't read the "fasted vs. unfasted" debate. Is that case closed?
If you don't like healthy non-obese females in 2014 - then no, it's not closed. Guess we need one on healthy non-obese dudes as well. I just think that REE and NEAT over 23h, 20min blows the doors off anything you can do in 40 min.
 
thebigt

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lol...I wonder if there are any 'vegan' bodybuilders.....can vegans use bcaa's?
 
The_Old_Guy

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lol...I wonder if there are any 'vegan' bodybuilders.....can vegans use bcaa's?
I guess if they are derived from plant sources - pea and brown rice protein is a good combo for vegans to use = protein = BCAA ?
 
thebigt

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I guess if they are derived from plant sources - pea and brown rice protein is a good combo for vegans to use = protein = BCAA ��
i think it would be interesting to see results in bodybuilding that could be obtained on a vegan diet.

we as bodybuilders/weight lifters put so much emphasis on protein, I would love to see a study that compares a guy eating a protein rich diet and consuming protein shakes versus a guy on a vegan diet-both would be doing the same weight lifting workout....I think it would be fascinating to know exactly the difference a high protein diet makes on muscle building.
 

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IME all the big names in amino acid supplementation produce them via fermentation, meaning the AAs are vegan.

Only the cheap stuff is made by hydrolyzing feathers etc.
 
thebigt

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IME all the big names in amino acid supplementation produce them via fermentation, meaning the AAs are vegan.

Only the cheap stuff is made by hydrolyzing feathers etc.
very interesting!!!
 

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