What happens to your body while your lipids are in bad shape?
- 06-01-2005, 12:32 PM
Well, as someone who's avoided the PH and AAS route, I can tell you it was one helluva big surprise to find my cholesterol profile had suddenly tanked to ****sville. Like a 6:1 bad:good ratio!
If I'd have assumed everything had stayed the same as my previous blood work from 3 years ago, I could have been in even worse trouble if I had not tried the "natural" method.
What I'm trying to say here is that your lipid profiles are not something to take for granted. Don't assume that because you've been "fine until now" that you will not have issues spontaneously and that PH's or AAS are going to be handled "just fine" by a body that's quietly crapping out with its cholesterol management.
I'm guessing that some of these young guys who drop encounter the scenario I've reached -- a sudden shift in your body's composition which changes all the rules.
They run a cycle (whether the first time or a repeat) "knowing" they have plenty of "safety room" -- and yet they have NONE because of a change. And it's a fatal mistake.
- 06-01-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by max-rot98
Furthermore, w/regards to pro's they likely are closely monitored by doctors and take drugs the like of which most people can't imagine. The real danger of steroid use is likely carried by the non-pros, the guys just doing a couple cycles, who don't have the resources or the knowledge to do things psuedo-safely--and I'm talking far beyond nolva, liver pro, and flax! Its my opinion that AAS are not for everyone and the risks far outweigh the benefits for most individuals.
06-01-2005, 01:47 PM
I checked my Blood pressure a few days ago at Walmart, got 108/64, second try 108/58 third try 108/54.
06-01-2005, 01:59 PM
FYI -- I have 110/75. And horrid cholesterol. I'm classified as "immediate risk".
Bad BP can tell you if something's wrong but unfortunately good BP isn't a marker that things are ok with regards to lipids.
06-01-2005, 02:07 PM
jaymc, I can see what you're trying to say and all, and that's fine. But I know for a fact that you don't do aas and that you talk **** on people that do all the time. The same goes for everybody else that's on AE's private board. IMO you're just preaching to the choir here and for the simple reason that you choose not to do AAS for whatever reason, you try to shun away all other guys that your just jealous of. theres a difference between using responsibly and abusing. Let's quit with trying to scare the members here w/ your so-called knowledge base. Because that's what it boils down to...
Safety in this game is most important, but some of the things you say are wrong and somewhat dillusional. I have 5 doctors in my family and they all know I use hormones. Some of the stuff you say is just hogwash...and they agree.
On top of that, how would you know how our bodies react and recover when you've never used AAS!!
06-01-2005, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the tip, Ill have to go to a doctor and have him check me out for a physical and see whats up.Originally Posted by Malek256
06-01-2005, 02:18 PM
When do you guys check your blood pressure? I have done it first thing in the morning and got 112/62. It that what you would classify as bp, or do you check it sometime during the day?
06-01-2005, 02:51 PM
06-01-2005, 02:55 PM
Metro, you might find this link's content of use: http://familydoctor.org/128.xml So long as you've been still for about 5 minutes (and aren't nervous -- seriously it ups BP) you can get a check done at any time of day. I know it's obvious, but if you're a coffee drinker it will affect your result.
Methyl, a check on lipids can't hurt -- in my case I kind of bullied my doctor into running the test. That might have (literally) saved my life. That's a damn scary thing. I never had any issues with cholesterol when I was younger and my vitals all are otherwise great.
In my case though it looks like there's a genetic component as my mother died suddenly last year due to a heart attack as a direct result of undiagnosed clogged arteries. And so I got it checked...it's hard to believe it changed so drastically and FAST.
06-01-2005, 03:15 PM
Yeah, high cholesterol and high blood pressure is not good, its known as the silent killer, no warning of impending death. Sorry to hear about your mother, my condolensces.Originally Posted by Malek256
06-01-2005, 04:52 PM
First I've never talked **** about anyone using steroids, so relax. Second, I haven't said anything that is untrue and that can't be verified through some searching. Third, I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything, I was just presenting information for people to consider and interpret as they may. As far as credentials, I've got a degree w/a double major in biology and chemistry and am a second year med student (actually about 3 weeks away from being second year). Just because I've never used AAS doesn't mean I can't possibly understand how they work. I know lots of things about the way lots of drugs work I've never used. If you are only going to take the advice of other AAS users thats fine. Ultimately I'm wasting my own time on the internet advising people I don't know. I guess maybe I should stop doing that.Originally Posted by lifted
I've built a body I'm quite happy w/and fail to see why I might be jealous, AAS are readily available to anyone that really wants to obtain them. Name calling is not very polite or mature. Saddly it seems all level headed discussions about this topic quickly go south. I thought up until that post things were very civil.
06-01-2005, 05:02 PM
If you have taken an extensive look at the original refereed literature on AAS, and you were able to discern unique long term effects seperate from the effects of untreated hypertension/hyperlipidemia I applaud you as that is something that expert doctors have not been able to do. Last I checked androgen induced cardiac hypertrophy was transient and hypertension/hyperlipidemia can be treated, which leaves properly monitored AAS use as *potentially* safe (and in the opinion of most educated medical professionals -EDIT: who are actually familiar with the literature on AAS- , safer than smoking or drinking).Originally Posted by Jay Mc
I'm not going to knock anyone who chooses not to use, though I might give you a funny look if you want what AAS provide but decide not to use for misguided reasons. At any rate you look like you're in fine shape and if you're not looking to compete in the upper levels of a strength sport or get freaky huge, no reason to use really.
06-01-2005, 05:06 PM
From reading the SD logs, at least 2 guys did post-cycle lipid tests and showed basically complete recovery. I think one did a test after 4 weeks, one after 8.Originally Posted by jhferry
Is this true? If you gained any build-up in your arteries during 3 weeks of SD, doesn't the build-up loosen with, say, aerobic exercise? Sorry to be so uninformed about this.Originally Posted by Jay Mc
06-01-2005, 05:13 PM
Okay, this thread is getting OT, so I will adress you one last time.Originally Posted by Jay Mc
You've ALWAYS talked **** on AE"s board about AAS users. I can even link to a thread that you posted in reference to a good guy that was sourcing from Mass. He got busted and YOU said something along the lines of "well, he got what he deserves"....and "he should be ashamed of himself using and selling AAS" Also said that he looked like **** and that you looked better than him...lol, this is coming from a 150lb. stickfigure...lol...get a clue man. what kinda **** is that? You're a disgrace to the BB'ing community and you're two faced by coming here and saying one thing, and hten going over to AE's board and saying somthing else. You're using thispropaganda to spread your attitude, nothing more.
And if you're really in school for your ned degree, then I would go back and do it all over again, becasue you have no idea wtf you're talking about.
The reason I posted this is becasue you ARE scaring members with false/inaccurate information and it's infecting the board. Okay, I'm done...just thought I'd pass along to the other good guys here what you're really about.
06-01-2005, 05:36 PM
Saying he looked better than a guy on AAS isn't talking **** about general AAS users. As anyone know AAS isn't a miracle drug and there are plenty of users that do look like crud Also, 150, 250, 350 doesn't decide ones intelligence about a subject. Have you ever seen most scientists? hehe.
06-01-2005, 05:41 PM
I don't quite know what the deal is here but I thought you should know calling Jay a 150 pound stickfigure just isn't true. The avatar here on AM is o-l-d...he has trained pretty seriously as of late. You want to know what people say about Jay on Anthony's board in regards to where he is now? Let me give you 4 quotes...these are specifically in regards to his physique RIGHT NOW compared to the avatar pic.
"...all hail the skinnyguy.net champ
damn J...truly awesome!.."
"...I want to look like that... You look like a completely different person! Nice work Jay ~ I would say that you very well could be the poster boy for skinnyguy.net..."
"...holy mother of god you've packed on some serious muscle bro... you'r an inspiration..."
"...H O L Y ... C R A P !!!
That is an absolutely AWESOME change!!! Great work man! Showin' us what can be done!! Hyooooge!.."
So I don't want to get into some BS here or anything but saying he is jealous of big guys or not a real BB'er or something...not true.
06-01-2005, 05:47 PM
06-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Sorry , I cut-and-pasted the quotes. One of them had a link to an animated gif hosted on the skinnyguy.net site. I replaced the quotes with raw text.
06-01-2005, 06:23 PM
Let me clear the air and remake my points in absurd detail.
The rest of my post is titled, "Jay Mc's anti AAS propaganda" or "Jihad on AAS and their users, die infidels, die!"
There are many risk factors to developing atherosclerosis, some controlable, some not. Increasing age, male gender, family history, and genetic abnormalities are some of the uncontrolable ones. HYPERLIPIDEMA, hypertension, cigarette smoking, and diabetes are some of the more controlable ones. There are 7 stages of Atherosclerosis (which accounts for a **** done of deaths, 20 to 25% of all deaths in the US are due to MI, just one way atherosclerosis kills, other major consequences are cerebral infarction, aortic aneurism, and peripheral vascular disease) as outlined by the AHA. The first 4 are predominated by growth of plaques mainly by lipid accumulation. These changes can start from the first decade of life, in fact, pathological studies have shown that atherosclerotic coronary artery disease can and does begin in childhood. Furthermore, hyperlipidemia, specifically hypercholesterolemia, is largely implicated in the development of said lesions. See, LDL is the physiological transporter of fats to the peripheral tissue so when LDL:HDL gets out of whack you have a higher propensity to form athersclerotic lesions. In fact, it has been shown that elevated LDL is sufficient to stimulate lesion development EVEN IN THE ABSCENCE OF OTHER FACTORS. This is significant because the current model of pathogenesis goes like this: atherosclerosis is a chronic inflammatory response of the arterial wall initiated by injury to the endothelium; moreover, lesion progression is sustained by interaction between modified lipoproteins, monocyte-derived macrophages, T lymphocytes, and th normal cellular constituents of the arterial wall. Oxidized LDL is a hallmark of early atherosclerotic lesions and plays a role in almost all aspects of the pathogenesis.
Why I think this might be of concern to AAS users:
AAS users generally don't see a change in total cholesterol, they say a dramatic shift in the ratio of LDL to HDL. This sets the stage for all of the things mentioned earlier to start in motion, and since atherosclerosis is a chronic, progressive disease this could have weighty consequences.
What I haven't said:
I have not said using AAS will definitely give you atherosclerosis; however, there is evidence that their use, especially prolonged or repeated, could definitely cause physiological changes that would increase the propensity for the onset of athersclerotic lesions.
Your pal, Jay, the now 170 lbs stick figure.
Kumar, V. Abbas, A. Fausto, N. Robbins and Cotran Pathologic Basis of Disease. 7th Edition. pg 516-524. Elsevier Inc. 2005.
I think this info is the most pertinant to the original posters question and I hope I have cleared the air for everyone else as to my concerns and believes.
06-02-2005, 12:08 AM
Honestly though, If all this stuff came out when SD was released I would have never bought it. In the end its my own fault because I believed the low side effect stuff without condidering it was still an oral. Now to take all these counteractive things, take blood tests. Its become rediculously expensive and seems a bit... dangerous. I hope Im wrong. I would like to use it knowing its safe. I was planning on using 20mg with a bottle of mag-10 I had (itest + 4ad) I just dont want any freakin heart damage from it.
06-02-2005, 12:09 AM
If you're doing a cycle longer than 6 weeks get blood tested in the middle of it to see how you're doing. Get medications to counteract any bad things that crop up. You'll be fine.
06-02-2005, 12:24 AM
06-02-2005, 09:34 PM
Im not saying he didnt, I dont think it matters what was said before. Some type of conclusion needs to be made about what exactly this can do to your cardiovascular system. Some logs here had people on all the preventative things and there lipids still got bombed. So what is the full list of recommended things to prevent any damage?Originally Posted by rrgg
06-02-2005, 10:16 PM
For starters I'd get a lipid panel before your cycle. If your lipids are even slightly out of whack I would consider that a complete contraindication to use.Originally Posted by jhferry
Also I think its important to evaluate your goals. Like exnihlo said, unless you wanna be freaky big or competitive somehow, you can probably build the body you want w/o the use of AAS it just will likely take a while longer.
As far as drugs/sups I would look at things that decrease LDL and increase HDL.
06-02-2005, 11:00 PM
It's all about genetics man. Some people have NASTY problems with LDL/HDL ratios or just high cholesterol in general, that's difficult to treat with medication NORMALLY. If those people get on AAS, forget about it, no way you're going to keep them in the healthy range. Most people have fine total/ldl/hdl and AAS raises total and ldl while lowering hdl, and some people nothing happens at all. In most normal people's cases a healthy diet combined with some form of antihypertensive and some sort of cholesterol improving product (or two) and a good combination of aerobic and anaerobic training will be enough to keep you in the green. Some people can take aas, eat like ****, not do cardio and still be healthy. Some people die at 40 of a heart attack having lived a completely and totally healthy life...Originally Posted by jhferry
06-02-2005, 11:25 PM
Hey,Originally Posted by jhferry
Just thought I would weigh in with what worked for me. I pretty much overkilled with the supplements as a precaution, but I took (during cycle for lipid protection only):
And as a result, I seem to be in good shape at the halfway mark with lipids(1 week). But again, as exnihilo said, I think that it is about genetics.
The only problem that I have had I can only aptly describe as heart hypertrophy...I assume this is possible, as a steroid would cause muscle growth, and your heart is a muscle. Maybe that is not it; I am not by any means qualified to make this diagnosis, but that is what it feels like, and there is nothing else wrong with me. I am wondering if anyone else has had this problem.
06-03-2005, 05:15 AM
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