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The case for DMAA - thoughts?

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  1. Isn't the issue here that DMAA as found in supplements is synthetic as opposed to how it is found in nature?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Supercellular View Post
    Isn't the issue here that DMAA as found in supplements is synthetic as opposed to how it is found in nature?
    I dont follow this argument. I mean, is there a non trivial difference in compound chemical structure synthetic vs "natural"? If not, if for all intents and purposes the compound itself is identical, why is this a major point of contention for the fda?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Supercellular View Post
    Isn't the issue here that DMAA as found in supplements is synthetic as opposed to how it is found in nature?
    I think part of the issue is that some people didn't think it existed in nature (geranium) at all. We have synthetic caffeine for example, but we know it's found in nature/plants/etc.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    I dont follow this argument. I mean, is there a non trivial difference in compound chemical structure synthetic vs "natural"? If not, if for all intents and purposes the compound itself is identical, why is this a major point of contention for the fda?
    There was a non-published study floating around which essentially stated that the DMAA found in supplements =/= what they extracted from geranium. Make of that what you will

  5. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    I think part of the issue is that some people didn't think it existed in nature (geranium) at all. We have synthetic caffeine for example, but we know it's found in nature/plants/etc.
    Aye. If the source of natural coffee was to go extinct, which if media hype is to be believed is possible, would synthetic coffee be illegal?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    Aye. If the source of natural coffee was to go extinct, which if media hype is to be believed is possible, would synthetic coffee be illegal?
    That wouldn't really make sense, as caffeine has been sold as a supplement for a long time, and has been present in the food supply, at high doses, for a LONG time.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    That wouldn't really make sense, as caffeine has been sold as a supplement for a long time, and has been present in the food supply, at high doses, for a LONG time.
    Sure. At present, the "X is synthetic and not extracted therefore X is illegal" argument makes no sense to me. The statement appears so crude it must be a misrepresentation lol...but Ive read it here on multiple occasion.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    Sure. At present, the "X is synthetic and not extracted therefore X is illegal" argument makes no sense to me. The statement appears so crude it must be a misrepresentation lol...but Ive read it here on multiple occasion.
    I've more often heard it as "x ingredient isn't found in nature, therefore it isn't legal."
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    this is correct. the pills had 288mg of DMAA each, and people took 2.
    and no one died.....

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  11. Quote Originally Posted by justhere4comm View Post
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    I think part of the issue is that some people didn't think it existed in nature (geranium) at all. We have synthetic caffeine for example, but we know it's found in nature/plants/etc.
    I think dmaa is being singled out because of it's connection to PA...he went thru this crap with the ingredient in 6oxo!!! the fda seems to have a hard on for Patrick, or at least that is how it appears to me.
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    I dont follow this argument. I mean, is there a non trivial difference in compound chemical structure synthetic vs "natural"? If not, if for all intents and purposes the compound itself is identical, why is this a major point of contention for the fda?
    They definitely aren't consistent in how they apply the law (fda) but I read that if found in nature it would be in a liquid state not the powdered DMAA used in preworkouts.

    You gotta think that with BSL having been raised and suddenly removing DMAA from their products that hi tech will be getting the mother of all beatdowns at some point, I would guess though they won't do anything before the case due in court in case it's argued that the government acted in a way that prejudiced the case.

    You would think that even if they lost the government could just decide to schedule DMAA as a controlled drug since being found in nature doesn't mean you can sell opium or cocaine.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    I think dmaa is being singled out because of it's connection to PA...he went thru this crap with the ingredient in 6oxo!!! the fda seems to have a hard on for Patrick, or at least that is how it appears to me.
    Look at the post justhere4 posted. Either whoever is asking the questions is completely ignorant on the subject and laws, or they're intentionally asking nonsensical/irrelevant questions. It's almost (or exactly) like they don't know what an extract is.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Look at the post justhere4 posted. Either whoever is asking the questions is completely ignorant on the subject and laws, or they're intentionally asking nonsensical/irrelevant questions. It's almost (or exactly) like they don't know what an extract is.
    like I said, I think it all comes back to the PA connection....
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  16. The case for DMAA - thoughts?


    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    like I said, I think it all comes back to the PA connection....
    I don't know about that, at least not saying it ALL comes down to PA. The few "incidents" probably played a big role in it showing up on the radar, and the subsequent crusade against it; look at the media attention and publicity centered around caffeine powder after one or two kids died from it, and now you don't really see anyone selling it anymore. It's just that, with the caffeine powder, it wasn't a big seller at all, so no one pushed it further, and just stopped selling it.
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  17. The USADA found DMAA in geranium oil. It is 100% present in nature beyond any reasonable doubt
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  18. Its not going to be around much longer, FDA will be going hard and heavy over next 2 months, I believe they have sent out about 50 warning letters last week
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    The USADA found DMAA in geranium oil. It is 100% present in nature beyond any reasonable doubt
    Is there anything to the argument "but you have to use the natural extract and not some synthetic facsimile!!1!"?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Adizzle1 View Post
    Its not going to be around much longer, FDA will be going hard and heavy over next 2 months, I believe they have sent out about 50 warning letters last week
    of course they are going at it hard and they are going to put on a show- why? they are being taken to court.

    also, whatever they send out or whatever they take has no barring or shouldnt (sorry this is the gov were talking about) be part of the case. if they find some form of dmaa that xyc - for example- is using, thats on them. this is about using a supp that has been proven to be found in natural products.

    at the end of the day, hold on, wtf is Trump? this is a perfect example of tax money being wasted. do we get a refund on this
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by smith_69 View Post
    of course they are going at it hard and they are going to put on a show- why? they are being taken to court.

    also, whatever they send out or whatever they take has no barring or shouldnt (sorry this is the gov were talking about) be part of the case. if they find some form of dmaa that xyc - for example- is using, thats on them. this is about using a supp that has been proven to be found in natural products.

    at the end of the day, hold on, wtf is Trump? this is a perfect example of tax money being wasted. do we get a refund on this
    Im not saying its right, I would love for DMAA to stick around, its great, Im just saying in my opinion it definitely will be removed from the market shortly.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    Is there anything to the argument "but you have to use the natural extract and not some synthetic facsimile!!1!"?
    If you read the text in the OP you'll see the govt directly admits compounds can be synthesized
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative Manager

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Adizzle1 View Post
    Im not saying its right, I would love for DMAA to stick around, its great, Im just saying in my opinion it definitely will be removed from the market shortly.
    and honestly, i think your right- hope were wrong
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by Adizzle1 View Post
    Its not going to be around much longer, FDA will be going hard and heavy over next 2 months, I believe they have sent out about 50 warning letters last week
    its in federal court....not really a forum guessing game by pretenders...

  25. Quote Originally Posted by USPlabsRep View Post
    its in federal court....not really a forum guessing game by pretenders...
    this this this. I've been saying this non-stop forever, glad I'm not the only one who understands the reality
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  26. I guess well see if those warning letters pop up in the next 1-2 weeks
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  27. Quote Originally Posted by Adizzle1 View Post
    I guess well see if those warning letters pop up in the next 1-2 weeks
    warning letters over DMAA have been going out for just about 5 years now, that doesn't change the fact that its currently being handled in federal court, Hi-Tech vs FDA.
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  28. Ofcourse it doesn't and sure random warning letters every now and again have gone out but 50 warning letters at once in an industry wide sweep to remove the ingredient coupled with raids and seizures must mean their pretty darn confident..
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  29. If so, it would appear to me, a last desperate move before they tap out. I'm JAFO.
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