Megadosing Vitamin C

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    Megadosing Vitamin C


    I want some bro's with some good understanding of the subject to comment on High Dose usage of Vitamin C. There are a ton of advocates out there, not the least of which was Linus Pauling. Your thoughts, expierences, etc. please!

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    I have been doing about 8 grams a day for the last few days and one thing that intrigues me is that my urine color has not gone even remotely yellow which is typical when you are taking a mutivitamin. Its means your pissing out the excess. Could it be that my body is actually using up that much C? Could there be a huge deficiency right now in my body chemistry?

    Benz, I would love your input on this!
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    Just a quick thought. Einstein took 10 grs per day.
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    Originally posted by bachovas
    Just a quick thought. Einstein took 10 grs per day.
    Many other scientific/researcher types did high dosing of C. Interesting indeed.
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    I usually have 2500mg-3000mg. When I feel a cold coming I bump it to 5000mg.
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    Originally posted by windwords7
    I have been doing about 8 grams a day for the last few days and one thing that intrigues me is that my urine color has not gone even remotely yellow which is typical when you are taking a mutivitamin. Its means your pissing out the excess. Could it be that my body is actually using up that much C? Could there be a huge deficiency right now in my body chemistry?

    Benz, I would love your input on this!
    I have read it is B vitamins in supplements that cause the deep yellow color in urine. Most of the B vitamins are cheap so multi-vitamin manufacturers frequently overdose their product with them. Since the B vitamins are water soluble it isn't injurious to health to consume excess amounts. The excess, as you wrote, is simply pissed out. Vitamin C is also water soluble and any excess would also be excreted in your urine but I don't think it causes the urine to be yellow.
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    Thanks Guy.
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    Not a perfect example of a study, but notice the increase in glutathione in C group. Look for studies guys!

    Vitamin C augments lymphocyte glutathione in subjects with ascorbate deficiency.

    Lenton KJ, Sane AT, Therriault H, Cantin AM, Payette H, Wagner JR.


    Centre de Recherche sur le Vieillissement, Institut Universitaire de Geriatrie de Sherbrooke, PQ, Canada.

    BACKGROUND: Ascorbate and glutathione play central roles in the defense against free radicals and oxidants that are implicated in chronic diseases. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to determine the ability of vitamin C supplements to modulate the concentration of glutathione in human lymphocytes. DESIGN: The effect of vitamin C supplements was determined in a sequential study with time points before supplementation, after 13 wk of vitamin C supplements (500 or 1000 mg/d), and after 13 wk of matching placebo. The supplementation group was selected on the basis of low plasma ascorbate (<33 mmol/L) and consisted of 48 healthy men and women, smokers and nonsmokers, aged 25-64 y. Ascorbate and glutathione were measured in purified lymphocytes. RESULTS: At baseline, the mean (+/-SD) concentration of plasma ascorbate was 19.5 +/- 7.2 micro mol/L, 22.5 micro mol/L below the median of normal distribution. The ascorbate concentration in plasma was linearly associated with that in lymphocytes (r = 0.53, P < 0.001). On supplementation with vitamin C, lymphocyte ascorbate increased by 51% (from 16.7 +/- 4.9 to 25.3 +/- 6.9 nmol/mg protein; P < 0.001) and was accompanied by an increase of lymphocyte glutathione by 18% (from 22.5 +/- 4.5 to 26.6 +/- 6.5 nmol/mg protein; P < 0.001). After placebo, the ascorbate and glutathione concentrations fell to near baseline concentrations (17.1 +/- 5.4 and 23.5 +/- 6.4 nmol/mg protein, respectively). No significant interaction was observed for sex and smoking status. Finally, the changes in lymphocyte ascorbate after supplementation were strongly associated with changes in lymphocyte glutathione (r = 0.71, P < 0.001). The association suggests that every 1-mol change in ascorbate is accompanied by a change of approximately 0.5 mol in glutathione. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C supplements increase glutathione in human lymphocytes.

    Publication Types:

    • Clinical Trial



    PMID: 12499341 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Now this is the kind of junk that is fed by doctors who rely on a few selected studies:

    http://www.drsinatra.com/nc/mega_dosing.asp
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    One final thought. although mega-doses of Vitamin C are not toxic, diarrhea can result when the form taken is ascorbic acid. To avoid this, take a buffered form of Vitamin C when mega-dosing. The buffered form that most recommend is Ester C.
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    Another decent article:

    http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html
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    Great stuff! Thanks for all of that. Anyone else have some good info?
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    Do you know of any place that sells large quantities of vitamins in powder form?

    WYD
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    Linus Pauling said that no virus could survive in a system where the cells were kept saturated with Vit-C. I believe him. Remember, he is listed in the Guiness book of records as the only man to win an unshared Nobel prize twice. They nearly awarded him a 3rd unshared Nobel for his discovery of the cause of Sickle Cell Anemia, until they remembered he had already won twice before. He also stated that each person was different and one might require 1 gram of C every hour to cure the common cold, while another might need 4 GRAMS EVERY HOUR!!! He, himself used the higher dose.

    I also saw him on TV, where he stated that no virus is comfortable in an alkali system, which means cut back on protein while sick. He stated that for years he knew the effects of Vit-C and Vit-E were synergistic, but felt there was a missing link to his anti-oxidant triangle. Just about 10 years ago, he concluded, along with reserarchers at the Shute Heart Clinic, that the missing corner of this triangle was the trace-mineral Selenium. They feel in the correct mega-dose combination, the synergistic effects of this super anti-oxidant combination can cure every heart ailment except a bundle branch block, even including severe angina. Due to constant uphill battling with the FDA, the Shute Brothers built their new clinic in Canada. Funny, some of the more progressive vets here in Cincinnati, give dogs and cats Vit-C for urinary and bladder infections, while most MDs just laugh at the idea.

    I myself take 1 gram Vit-C every hour on the hour for any virus. I also take a garlicin garlic tab and echinacea with golden seal every hour as well. I can have a 103 degree fever, shakes, the works. Usually always completely gone in less than 24 hrs. Sometimes a stubborn cold will hang on a little longer. I consider water of vital importance when ill, and everyone should read the little book, "The Body's Many Cries For Water."

    As far as urine color, Vit B-6 is the one most likely to turn urine a deep shade of yellow. Vit-C has no effect on this. With ENOUGH water, it will only be a light shade of yellow, anyway. Colored urine is a sign of mild dehydration, excepting large doses of B-complex. Just my 2 cents.
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    Good stuff benz!
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    Great stuff, thanks John. I up my dosage of vit C to about 5-6 g grams daily when I have any form of cold or sickness (normal is 3g daily), have for about the past 5 years and haven't stayed sick any much longer than 2 days in that time. This is of course anecdotal and speculatory, but adds nonetheless to the discussion.
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    Originally posted by bachovas
    Just a quick thought. Einstein took 10 grs per day.
    Albert Einstein and Linus Pauling were close personal friends.
    Originally posted by GuyinLA
    One final thought. although mega-doses of Vitamin C are not toxic, diarrhea can result when the form taken is ascorbic acid. To avoid this, take a buffered form of Vitamin C when mega-dosing. The buffered form that most recommend is Ester C.
    I would NOT recommend ester-C. The patented ester process involves heating the vitamin and I am leary of this. Pauling always advocated the keep it simple theory that the cheapest ascorbic acid powder in bulk form was at least as effective as the fancy labeled varieties costing 10 times as much in a health food store. BTW, I have never experienced diarrhea from excess vit-C.
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    Great Thread guys!
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    My cold has certainly not gotten as severe, it would seem, after doing mega dosing for the last two days.
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    Albert Einstein and Linus Pauling were close personal friends.

    I would NOT recommend ester-C. The patented ester process involves heating the vitamin and I am leary of this. Pauling always advocated the keep it simple theory that the cheapest ascorbic acid powder in bulk form was at least as effective as the fancy labeled varieties costing 10 times as much in a health food store. BTW, I have never experienced diarrhea from excess vit-C.
    If my memory serves (I'm no youngster), I think Pauling was addressing the source, not form, of Vitamin C. Back in the seventies (when Pauling was writing extensively on Vitamin C) there used to be a raging debate on whether to get vitamin supplements from "natural" or "synthetic" sources. One of the so-called natural sources of Vitamin C back then was rose hips (there were others as well). Naturally, the so-called natural source was more expensive (translate more profitable to producers/retailers). Pauling knew that this was all nonsense. All vitamin supplements are essentially synthesized so it didn't matter whether the source was rose hips or not. It just mattered that it was Vitamin C. Today, this debate has gone away and "natural" is rarely marketed anymore, so Dr. Pauling saw through all this hype before most did.

    If plain ascorbic acid causes no stomach upset, then that is the way to go since I am sure that is the cheapest form of Vitamin C. However, for many the inclusion of a buffering agent is advisable, especially when consuming mega-doses. Ester-C is one type of buffered Vitamin C. There are others (usually calcium ascorbate). My central point was to raise the issue of buffered vs. plain Vitamin C. I wasn't aware of any criticism against Ester-C and would be interested in knowing more.
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    Originally posted by whosyourdaddy02
    Do you know of any place that sells large quantities of vitamins in powder form?
    WYD
    Originally posted by John Benz

    I would NOT recommend ester-C. The patented ester process involves heating the vitamin and I am leary of this. Pauling always advocated the keep it simple theory that the cheapest ascorbic acid powder in bulk form was at least as effective as the fancy labeled varieties costing 10 times as much in a health food store. BTW, I have never experienced diarrhea from excess vit-C.
    Ascorbic Acid:
    www.bulkfoods.com

    2 pounds for 28.60$
    They also sell whey protein Isolate 90% (plain, unflavored) 5 pounds for 38 bucks
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    The Vitamin C sold at bulkfoods.com is calcium ascorbate, i.e. buffered, and sells for $22.07 for 2 pounds. If you want ascorbic acid, beyond-a-century.com sells it for $22.00 for 1,000 grams, which is equivalent to 2.2 pounds. The ascorbic acid is cheaper, but see my earlier posts.
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    Originally posted by GuyinLA


    If my memory serves (I'm no youngster), I think Pauling was addressing the source, not form, of Vitamin C. Back in the seventies (when Pauling was writing extensively on Vitamin C) there used to be a raging debate on whether to get vitamin supplements from "natural" or "synthetic" sources. One of the so-called natural sources of Vitamin C back then was rose hips (there were others as well). Naturally, the so-called natural source was more expensive (translate more profitable to producers/retailers). Pauling knew that this was all nonsense. All vitamin supplements are essentially synthesized so it didn't matter whether the source was rose hips or not. It just mattered that it was Vitamin C. Today, this debate has gone away and "natural" is rarely marketed anymore, so Dr. Pauling saw through all this hype before most did.

    If plain ascorbic acid causes no stomach upset, then that is the way to go since I am sure that is the cheapest form of Vitamin C. However, for many the inclusion of a buffering agent is advisable, especially when consuming mega-doses. Ester-C is one type of buffered Vitamin C. There are others (usually calcium ascorbate). My central point was to raise the issue of buffered vs. plain Vitamin C. I wasn't aware of any criticism against Ester-C and would be interested in knowing more.
    Why the Vitamin C Foundation Does Not Recommend Ester-CŪ

    By Owen R Fonorow

    According to Robert Cathcart,MD, the physician with vast experience with high dose vitamin C protocols, mineral ascorbates are generally not as effective therapeutically as ascorbic acid:

    "...it was not entirely clear that the dramatic effects are always with ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally. Mineral ascorbates are fine forms of vitamin C but when you are really sick, the mitochondria are failing in their refueling of the free radical scavengers with electrons. The ascorbic acid carries 2 extra electrons per molecule where the mineral ascorbates seem to carry only one (plus per molecule the mineral ascorbates are heavier due to the mineral weighing more than the hydrogen the mineral replaces). So the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to accomplish the ascorbate effect. There may be other reasons that we do not appreciate additionally." Robert Cathcart, III, MD

    Another of our concerns is balancing the exaggerated hype against the following down-side about the Ester-C manufacturing process, as expressed by people experienced in the field, who wish to remain annonymous:


    "Note: it's my understanding that Roche at al. have long been less than thrilled with Inter-Cal's method for making Ester-C(r). After all, when C is heated to high temps under pressure, as their patent specifies, dehydroascorbate (DHA), to the tune of about 10% by weight of finished product, is the consequence. Of course, their claim to fame was that other organic acids were formed by their process, for which they claimed proprietary effects. But, there's no hiding the DHA content -- for which they sort of disingenuously claim biological value, based on the fact, I guess, that DHA can be reduced to to work again as an antioxidant." E. F.

    It is true that Ester-C reaches cells and enters them faster. An anonymous informant with ties to the U.S. biological weapons program told us:


    "Ester-C is not an ester. My late friend was a former scientist involved in biochemical warfare with a high security clearance. He dissected the patent and had several meetings with Dr. Virlangieri, one of the researchers that touted its virtues. My friend favored good old ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate. He told me quite literally that ester-C was "two pounds of 'dung' in a one pound bag." He was an avid Pauling devote and was concerned that under certain conditions, ester-C was dangerous and contraindicated. The prevailing propaganda changed from its being an ester to its providing threonine metabolites. He told me that Pauling would have laughed the ester-C boys back to chemistry class! " R. L.
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    RE: Ester-C article. First of all, the first and last part of the article wasn't included. In the interest in completeness, the first part reads:

    It is true that studies have shown so-called Ester-CŪ will enter cells faster and therefore less of it is required to ward off scurvy in guinea pigs. However, we are wary of any form of vitamin C that does not match what animals make "naturally" in their livers or kidneys. We agree with Linus Pauling that the true and best form of vitamin C is L-ascorbic Acid (C6H8O6).

    Patrick Holford, formerly of the British Institute of Optimum Nutrition (ION) tells us how animals make vitamin C, ascorbic acid:

    "Vitamin C is not a necessary component of diet, at least for all mammals with the exception of guinea pigs, fruit eating bats, the red vented bulbul bird and higher-order primates - which includes us. All other species make their vitamin C by converting glucuronic acid derived from glucose into ascorbic acid (C6H8O6). At least three enzymes are required to make this conversion. One of these liver enzymes, L-gulonolactone oxidase, or part of the enzyme system, is missing in primates. Irwin Stone proposed, in 1965, that a negative mutation may have occurred in these species so as to lose the ability to produce vitamin C. In primates this is thought to have occurred in the region of 25 million years ago. "

    The last part of the article reads:

    That is to say there might not be serious conditions where Ester-C is indicated. We have seen an impressive argument for Ester-C in an anti-cancer patent based on the work of former Pauling associate R. Jariwalla. However, since Ester-C also seems to trap vitamin C, and perhaps other toxins in cells, using Ester-C with Chemotherapy is problematic.

    Truth is truth. Vitamin C is vitamin C.
    Some respected authorities are now claiming that L-ascorbic acid is not vitamin C! (However, if this were true, Linus Pauling was wrong, and 80,000 research studies are fatally flawed.) We are unaware that Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986) treastise on vitamin C contained any errors what so ever!

    I can see that the Vitamin C Foundation has reservations about Ester-C and accordingly does not recommend using it.
    However, I don't see that the article is condemning the use of buffered Vitamin C, although Cathcart appears to prefer ascorbic acid for treating illness.
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    there are literally ****loads (read: ****loads ) of studies on vit C as you all can imagine, great thread so far.. I don't supp with it to any extreme degree other than what's in the multi and my normal bb diet, etc... no 5g daily or anything like that... however, these are just a few studies if anyone wants to peruse them... can post more later after these are discussed or whatever... just seems to be a LOT of info on this, some of it conflicting.

    ----------
    Mega-dose vitamin C in treatment of the common cold: a randomised controlled trial.

    Audera C, Patulny RV, Sander BH, Douglas RM.

    National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health, Australian National University, Canberra, ACT.

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of large doses of vitamin C in the treatment of the common cold. STUDY DESIGN: Double-blind, randomised clinical trial with four intervention arms: vitamin C at daily doses of 0.03g ("placebo"), 1 g, 3g, or 3g with additives ("Bio-C") taken at onset of a cold and for the following two days. PARTICIPANTS AND SETTING: 400 healthy volunteers were recruited from staff and students of the Australian National University, Canberra, ACT, between May 1998 and November 1999. The trial continued for 18 months. INTERVENTIONS: Participants were instructed to commence medication when they had experienced early symptoms of a cold for four hours, and to record daily their symptoms, severity, doctor visits and use of other medications. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Duration of symptoms and cold episodes; cumulative symptom severity scores after 7, 14 and 28 days; doctor visits; and whether participants guessed which medication they were taking. RESULTS: 149 participants returned records for 184 cold episodes. No significant differences were observed in any measure of cold duration or severity between the four medication groups. Although differences were not significant, the placebo group had the shortest duration of nasal, systemic and overall symptoms, and the lowest mean severity score at 14 days, and the second lowest at 7 and 28 days. CONCLUSIONS: Doses of vitamin C in excess of 1 g daily taken shortly after onset of a cold did not reduce the duration or severity of cold symptoms in healthy adult volunteers when compared with a vitamin C dose less than the minimum recommended daily intake.
    -----------------


    Vitamin C prevents cigarette smoke-induced oxidative damage in vivo.

    Panda K, Chattopadhyay R, Chattopadhyay DJ, Chatterjee IB.

    Dr. B. C. Guha Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, and the Department of Biochemistry, Calcutta University College of Science, Calcutta, India.

    Our recent in vitro results [4] indicate that cigarette smoke induces oxidation of human plasma proteins and extensive oxidative degradation of the guinea pig lung, heart, and liver microsomal proteins, which is almost completely prevented by ascorbic acid. In this paper, we substantiate the in vitro results with in vivo observations. We demonstrate that exposure of subclinical or marginal vitamin C-deficient guinea pigs to cigarette smoke causes oxidation of plasma proteins as well as extensive oxidative degradation of the lung microsomal proteins. Cigarette smoke exposure also results in some discernible damage of the heart microsomal proteins. The oxidative damage has been manifested by SDS-PAGE, accumulation of carbonyl and bityrosine, as well as loss of tryptophan and protein thiols. Cigarette smoke exposure also induces peroxidation of microsomal lipids as evidenced by the formation of conjugated dienes, malondialdehyde, and fluorescent pigment. Cigarette smoke-induced oxidative damage of proteins and peroxidation of lipids are accompanied by marked drop in the tissue ascorbate levels. Protein damage and lipid peroxidation are also observed in cigarette smoke-exposed pair-fed guinea pigs receiving 5 mg vitamin C/animal/day. However, complete protection against protein damage and lipid peroxidation occurs when the guinea pigs are fed 15 mg vitamin C/animal/day. Also, the cigarette smoke-induced oxidative damage of proteins and lipid is reversed after discontinuation of cigarette smoke exposure accompanied by ascorbate therapy. The results, if extrapolated to humans, indicate that comparatively large doses of vitamin C may protect the smokers from cigarette smoke-induced oxidative damage and associated degenerative diseases.
    ------------------


    Vitamin C for preventing and treating the common cold.

    Douglas RM, Chalker EB, Treacy B.

    National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health, The Australian National University, Canberra, ACT, Australia, 0200. Bob.Douglas@anu.edu.au

    BACKGROUND: The role of oral ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in the prevention and treatment of colds remains controversial despite many controlled trials. There have also been a number of efforts to synthesize and/or overview the results of these trials, and controversy over what these overviews tell us. OBJECTIVES: The objective of this review was to answer the following two questions: (1) Does regular high dosage supplementation with vitamin C reduce the incidence of colds? (2) Does taking vitamin C in high doses at the onset of a cold have a therapeutic effect? SEARCH STRATEGY: This review currently deals only with published trials from two previously published reviews by Kleijnen 1989 and Hemila 1992. SELECTION CRITERIA: Randomised and non-randomised trials of vitamin C taken to prevent or treat the common cold. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Two reviewers independently extracted data and assessed trial quality. MAIN RESULTS: Thirty trials were included. The quality of the included trials was variable. Vitamin C in doses as high as one gram daily for several winter months, had no consistent beneficial effect on incidence of the common cold. For both preventive and therapeutic trials, there was a consistently beneficial but generally modest therapeutic effect on duration of cold symptoms. This effect was variable, ranging from -0.07% to a 39% reduction in symptom days. The weighted difference across all of the studies revealed a reduction of a little less than half a symptom day per cold episode, representing an 8% to 9% reduction in symptom days. There was no clear indication of the relative benefits of different regimes or vitamin C doses. However in trials that tested vitamin C after cold symptoms occurred, there was some evidence that a large dose produced greater benefits than lower doses. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: Long term daily supplementation with vitamin C in large doses daily does not appear to prevent colds. There appears to be a modest benefit in reducing duration of cold symptoms from ingestion of relatively high doses of vitamin C. The relation of dose to therapeutic benefit needs further exploration.
    ---------------


    Relative hyperoxaluria, crystalluria and haematuria after megadose ingestion of vitamin C.

    Auer BL, Auer D, Rodgers AL.

    Department of Chemistry, University of Cape Town, South Africa.

    BACKGROUND: Long-term or high-dosage consumption of vitamin C may play a role in calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. The present study was undertaken to determine the biochemical and physicochemical risk factors in a male subject who developed haematuria and calcium oxalate crystalluria after ingestion of large doses of ascorbic acid for 8 consecutive days. METHODS: Twenty-four-hour urine samples were collected before and during the ascorbic acid ingestion period as well as after the detection of haematuria. A special procedure was implemented for urine collections to allow for oxalate, ascorbate and other urinalysis. Oxalate was determined in the presence of EDTA to prevent in vitro conversion to ascorbic acid, whereas ascorbate itself was determined by manual titration in a redox method using the dye dichlorophenolindophenol. Urinalysis data were used to compute calcium oxalate relative supersaturations and Tiselius risk indices, whereas scanning electron microscopy was used to examine urinary deposits. RESULTS: Oxalate excretion increased by about 350% during ascorbate ingestion before haematuria. Ascorbate concentrations also increased dramatically but appeared to reach a plateau maximum. Increasing calcium excretion was accompanied by decreasing potassium and phosphate values. The calcium oxalate relative supersaturation and Tiselius risk index increased during vitamin C ingestion and large aggregates of calcium oxalate dihydrate crystals were observed by scanning electron microscopy immediately after the detection of haematuria. CONCLUSION: High percentage metabolic conversion of ascorbate to oxalate in this subject caused relative hyperoxaluria and crystalluria, the latter manifesting itself as haematuria. Clinicians need to be alerted to the potential dangers of large dose ingestion of vitamin C in some individuals.
    ------------


    The effect of ascorbic acid ingestion on the biochemical and physicochemical risk factors associated with calcium oxalate kidney stone formation.

    Auer BL, Auer D, Rodgers AL.

    Chemistry Department, University of Cape Town, South Africa.

    The present study was undertaken to determine the effect of ingestion of large doses of vitamin C on urinary oxalate excretion and on a number of other biochemical and physicochemical risk factors associated with calcium oxalate urolithiasis. A further objective was to determine urinary ascorbate excretion and to relate it qualitatively to ingested levels of the vitamin and oxalate excretion. Ten healthy males participated in a protocol in which 4 g ascorbic acid was ingested for 5 days. Urines (24 h) were collected prior to, during and after the protocol. The urine collection procedure was designed to allow for the analysis of oxalate in the presence and absence of an EDTA preservative and for the analysis of ascorbic acid by manual titration using 2,6 dichlorophenolindophenol. Physicochemical risk factors such as the calcium oxalate relative supersaturation and Tiselius risk index were calculated from urine composition. The results showed that erroneously high analytical oxalate levels occur in the asence of preservative. In the preserved samples there was no significant increase in oxalate excretion at any stage of the protocol. Ascorbate excretion increased when vitamin C ingestion commenced but levelled out after 24 hours suggesting that saturation of the metabolic pool is reached within 24 hours after which ingested ascorbic acid is excreted unmetabolized in the urine. While transient statistically significant changes occurred in some of the biochemical risk factors, they were not regarded as being clinically significant. There were no changes in either the calcium oxalate relative supersaturation or Tiselius risk index. It is concluded that ingestion of large doses of ascorbic acid does not affect the principal risk factors associated with calcium oxalate kidney stone formation.
    -------------


    Vitamin C, the placebo effect, and the common cold: a case study of how preconceptions influence the analysis of results.

    Hemila H.

    Department of Public Health, University of Helsinki, Finland.

    A large number of placebo-controlled studies have shown that vitamin C supplementation alleviates the symptoms of the common cold, but widespread skepticism that vitamin C could have any significant effect remains. One of the most influential common cold studies, published in 1975, was carried out by Thomas Karlowski et al, at the National Institutes of Health. Their placebo consisted of lactose, which can easily be distinguished from ascorbic acid by taste. Karlowski et al, found a 17% decrease in the duration of cold episodes in the group administered vitamin C (6 g/day); however, they suggested that the decrease was entirely due to the placebo effect. In this article it will be shown that the placebo effect is not a valid explanation for the results of the Karlowski study, as it is inconsistent with their results. This is an important conclusion for two reasons. First, the placebo explanation becomes even more unreasonable as regards the reported benefits found in several other studies with valid placebo tablets. Second, as the results from the Karlowski study are not due to the placebo effect, their results can be used to assess the quantitative effects of vitamin C supplementation. The most important conclusions from Karlowski's study are that therapeutic vitamin C supplementation during a common cold episode appears to be as effective as regular supplementation, and that there appears to be linear dose dependency at least up to 6 g/day. These findings suggest that large therapeutic vitamin C doses might alleviate the symptoms of the common cold substantially.
    ---------------
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    Originally posted by GuyinLA
    I can see that the Vitamin C Foundation has reservations about Ester-C and accordingly does not recommend using it.
    However, I don't see that the article is condemning the use of buffered Vitamin C, although Cathcart appears to prefer ascorbic acid for treating illness.
    I purposely omitted the first and last parts for the sake of brevity, as they were redundant added little pro or con, just ramblings.
    And, the Vitamin C Foundation has more than a few resrvations about ALL forms of buffered C, both ester and mineral ascorbates. BTW, this thread was about treating illness with megadose Vit-C. I highlight part of my previous post below

    Originally posted by John Benz
    ....mineral ascorbates are generally not as effective therapeutically as ascorbic acid:
    .... I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally.
    ....My friend favored good old ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate. He told me quite literally that ester-C was "two pounds of 'dung' in a one pound bag." He was an avid Pauling devote and was concerned that under certain conditions, ester-C was dangerous and contraindicated.
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    Biggin, these studies are worthless, as Pauling wrote that at least 1 gm C every hour was needed to destroy the cold virus. These studies show results from 3-6 gms per day. Pauling himself took 2-4 gms every hour except when asleep (for a cold).

    Pauling was acknowledged by his peers, including Einstein as the greatest bio-chemist of this age. Who's word ya gonna take on the subject?

    His first Nobel prize was for the discovery of collagen, which binds the cells together. He deduced from scurvy patients that lack of Vit-C was the culprit, and went on from there. He outlived every single one of his major detractors, and the least that these research groups could do is use his recommended mega-dosage in trying to invalidate his claims.
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    aight, I suppose you have a point but are you suggesting that all studies on the subject are worthless unless they use 1-4 g/hr, as was stated as the approximate range necessary?... and with such a great range necessary due to individual variance, studies would need use at least 5g or so... per *hour*?
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    I also saw him on TV, where he stated that no virus is comfortable in an alkali system, which means cut back on protein while sick. He stated that for years he knew the effects of Vit-C and Vit-E were synergistic, but felt there was a missing link to his anti-oxidant triangle. Just about 10 years ago, he concluded, along with reserarchers at the Shute Heart Clinic, that the missing corner of this triangle was the trace-mineral Selenium.
    What's the dose they came up with for the Selenium? Benzy??
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    Originally posted by Biggin
    aight, I suppose you have a point but are you suggesting that all studies on the subject are worthless unless they use 1-4 g/hr, as was stated as the approximate range necessary?... and with such a great range necessary due to individual variance, studies would need use at least 5g or so... per *hour*?
    I have yet to see a study in which patients were given even 1 gram every hour.
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    Originally posted by windwords7


    What's the dose they came up with for the Selenium? Benzy??
    I will have to look this up, but for now, I would stay at a small dose if I were you. Selenium is very toxic in mega doses, unlike E & C. Several years ago, I think in the 1960's even, Ohio State did a study on Selenium, and found that fertlizers that contained too much selenium were having toxic effects on the biological activity in the soil of the wheat and corn fields all through the midwest, causing decreased yeilds. It was featured in the US Dept of Agriculture's hardbound yearbook, and as a result, many fertilizer makers reformulated their mix.

    Just stay at the recommended daily dose until we find that data.
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    Im sorry but what exactly does selenium do? Does it act like an anti-oxidant? Please inform me.
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    I purposely omitted the first and last parts for the sake of brevity, as they were redundant added little pro or con, just ramblings.
    And, the Vitamin C Foundation has more than a few resrvations about ALL forms of buffered C, both ester and mineral ascorbates. BTW, this thread was about treating illness with megadose Vit-C. I highlight part of my previous post below

    1. The readers of this thread can conclude whether or not the omitted portions of the article were "redundant" or "ramblings" (I'm sure the author would be flattered by this characterization). I appreciated the article, but I don't think it condemed either mineral ascorbates or Ester-C, especially when the omitted sections are considered. Others can draw their own conclusions.
    2. I spent a little time at the Vitamin C Foundation website and some writers in links advocated using mineral ascorbates. I didn't extensively research the website however and I couldn't find a search engine.
    3. While the Vitamin C Foundation is a credible organization, it is hardly the last word on the subject of Vitamin C. I'm sure we can all agree that no organization or individual is the last word on anything. Even if the Vitamin C Foundation were opposed to mineral ascorbates there is certainly responsible dissent on the subject. For example, the Life Extension Foundation, also a credible organization that conducts research, includes mineral ascorbates in their Life Extension Mix.
    4. Linus Pauling was of course a great, great scientist and yes, he was the recipient of two Nobel prizes (by the way, it should be noted that his second prize was not for science; rather it was the Nobel Peace Prize, received for his opposition to nuclear weapons). He was an acknowledged trailblazer on the subject of Vitamin C. A great deal of what we know was due to his efforts. However, Dr. Pauling has been dead for over eight years. The body of knowledge on Vitamin C did not close with his death. We may find over time that some of his theories about Vitamin C will even be discarded (e.g. he theorized Vitamin C could be used as an AIDS treatment, but that theory doesn't appear to be going anywhere). In any case, the body of knowledge will expand.
    5. Finally, I re-read windwords7 message that started this thread. There was nothing in his message that addressed using mega-doses of Vitamin C to specifically treat illness.

    Thanks again for the article.
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    Originally posted by Jedi Master
    Im sorry but what exactly does selenium do? Does it act like an anti-oxidant? Please inform me.
    It complements Vitamin E and C in fighting free radicals (oxidants) that cause cellular damage.

    And for windwords, the daily dosage is 200mcg.

    Peace!
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    You would have thought that Pauling useed higher doses than that??
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    Yes, he probably did for experiment purposes, but, i haven't found any information other than 200mcg for each serving per day
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    Benz have you found out any info on the Selenium yet?
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    YJ posted an article with this statement:

    "Selenium 800 mcg ED


    Selenium works closely with Vitamin E as an antioxidant. It helps fight premature aging and hardening of the tissues through oxidation. Selenium helps with the male reproductive system.

    Note: Anything over 800 mcg/day is toxic!"
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    Then I found this article from the Linus Pauling Inst. that states the following:

    "If one chooses to take selenium supplements to reduce the chance of contracting cancer, it is important that the maximum daily intake from all sources be less than 400 micrograms. Toxic effects of excessive selenium include hair loss, fatigue, immune impairment, weakened fingernails, and other problems. Since the trial conducted in the United States indicated that 200 micrograms per day was just as effective as 400 micrograms per day in preventing certain types of cancer; there is no compelling reason to take a daily amount of selenium greater than 200 micrograms."

    That says it all! 200mcg for me!

    Here is the link:

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w97/selenium.html
  

  
 

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