BCAA Usage in a Caloric Deficit

[The Solution]

From Alan Aragon's Facebook:

Plenty of research that goes against BCAA usage in a caloric restriction as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27175106
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22451437
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110810
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930475
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25429252/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26388782/


The high-quality protein in our diets are comprised of appx 18-26% BCAA as it is. Supplementing with extra BCAA on top of that can range from adding extra unnecessary calories (and metabolic burden), to actually inhibiting optimal use of ingested amino acids. there might be a detrimental impact given that the AAs appear to antagonize each other in terms of transport both into circulation and likely into the muscle

*whey protein has a stronger anabolic/anticatabolic effect than its equivalent in supplemental EAA or BCAA
It's no surprise that supplemental BCAA has an equivocal track record in the research
For those concerned about "going catabolic" doing fasted cardio without AA supplementation, research & Studies show no difference in body comp effects between fed vs fasted cardio when total protein is sufficient (both groups retained their LBM)

As for the ability of BCAA to inhibit muscle soreness, note that this is always compared to a non-protein placebo.
instead of an intact, high-quality protein such as whey, which provides the rest of the EAAs as well as other co-factors for anabolism -- but it's all moot if you're getting enough total daily protein anyway

"Thus, as we speculated, consumption of crystalline BCAA resulted in competitive antagonism for uptake from the gut and into the muscle and was actually not as effective as leucine alone in stimulating MPS. Despite the popularity of BCAA supplements we find shockingly little evidence for their efficacy in promoting MPS or lean mass gains and would advise the use of intact proteins as opposed to a purified combination of BCAA that appear to antagonize each other in terms of transport both into circulation and likely in to the muscle.”

The only people who are not wasting time & money on supplemental BCAA are those who must maintain a low-protein diet, or a diet with restricted amounts of high-quality protein.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Thanks for the post man! Good find!

 

[SFreed]

Interesting. So it would appear that for the majority of us here (who are fanatical about our protein) that BCAA's are a waste of money.

 

[Young Gotti]

That post raises so many other questions. I haven't had a chance to look at the links. But when he posted it on fb...I immediately was skeptical

 

[pro45]

I completely agree with Aragon.The research is right there in black and white. I'd rather save my money for more steak, eggs, and a quality protein powder.

 

[The Solution]

After reading through some of the comments some more aragon remarks:
People who went against Alan and his findings with their own thoughts....

"I challenge you to post a single controlled study where the subjects consumed an optimized amount of daily protein, and supplemental BCAA on top of that did anything at all. All we have in the literature is unpublished work by Stoppani et al that never made it past peer review, and a study by Dudgeon et al that DID make it past peer review, but it was literally one of the messiest studies I've ever seen. My colleagues and I wrote a letter to the editor and got them to admit reporting error (and this is putting the problems lightly)."

BCAA can help in instances where total daily protein intake is subpar. No data on protein intake was provided in this study. This is a big point that people always miss. If your protein intake is optimized, you're getting enough BCAA. That as a huge point of my post.

Someone asked:
"Do you find that bcaa could be beneficial to athletes/individuals with high cpk? Or elite athletes that have a difficulty to drop cpk on critical/short periods of time?"

Alan -- "Sure, they've been shown to reduce CPK, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that optimizing total daily protein would do the same (& impart other benefits where isolated BCAA would fall short)"

Someone asked about a stim effect from a BCAA Product
Alan's Response "Just saying that there's no research data I'm aware of showing stim effects of BCAA, nor is this a biologically plausible effect given the body's metabolism of BCAA."

 

[Ape McGrapes]

How about Intra-Workout?

Though... Pepto-Pro > BCAA

 

[Jiigzz]

That post raises so many other questions. I haven't had a chance to look at the links. But when he posted it on fb...I immediately was skeptical

What other questions did you have?

 

[TrainerTone]

Very interesting post my man. Like reading things that cause debates like this

 

[pro45]

How about Intra-Workout?

Though... Pepto-Pro > BCAA

Aragon debunked the casein hydrolysate myth also. Basically, it enlarges visceral organs, not muscle tissue.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Nice post, I've only used BCAA during this cut for IF so is my supplementation useless even though I'm in a deficit?

 

[Nac]

Nice post, I've only used BCAA during this cut for IF so is my supplementation useless even though I'm in a deficit?

If youre not in a protein deficit specifically then yeah, it would appear so.

 

[Jiigzz]

To be fair, this is not exactly groundbreaking, but rather just another nail in the coffin for this particular factor.

 

[Nac]

Unfortunately people still believe the earth to be flat, despite the numerous nails in that particular coffin. And, more closer to home so to speak, that fasted cardio > fed state cardio for fat loss.

The more nails the better when it comes to opposing ideologies.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Aragon debunked the casein hydrolysate myth also. Basically, it enlarges visceral organs, not muscle tissue.

Just read the blog post. Very interesting. Only thing with the study provided(from what he wrote) is that the casein hydrolysate wasn't used intraworkout. I wonder if that would make a difference considering glute-4 activation and better nutrient uptake durring that time.

Def making me secind guess buying more Pepto-Pro for sure.

Anyone want to chime in?

 

[Driven2lift]

How about we just consume more whole protein until the peptide verdict comes in

That's all I got from this blowing up in every fitness group today.

Data was all there just took some bigger names to consolidate the data and spread the word.

As before, BCAAs see best use in a diet lower in protein.

My one qualm with the above:

For those concerned about "going catabolic" doing fasted cardio without AA supplementation, research & Studies show no difference in body comp effects between fed vs fasted cardio when total protein is sufficient (both groups retained their LBM)

Give me weight-lifting data, I'd much rather see effects of a fasted vs. Amino fed weight session. Good to know for clients or weight loss chasers asking, but give me the more BB relevant data!

Do we know the used products or amino ratios yet?
Because the whole amino uptake inhibiting argument should vary by each product. Well, at least the ones that aren't all the same under-dosed crap lol

Ie. A basic 3 amino BCAA formula vs. a complete amino product, or EAA + BCAA

 

[Young Gotti]

How about we just consume more whole protein until the peptide verdict comes in

That's all I got from this blowing up in every fitness group today.

Data was all there just took some bigger names to consolidate the data and spread the word.

As before, BCAAs see best use in a diet lower in protein.

My one qualm with the above:





Give me weight-lifting data, I'd much rather see effects of a fasted vs. Amino fed weight session. Good to know for clients or weight loss chasers asking, but give me the more BB relevant data!

Do we know the used products or amino ratios yet?
Because the whole amino uptake inhibiting argument should vary by each product. Well, at least the ones that aren't all the same under-dosed crap lol

Ie. A basic 3 amino BCAA formula vs. a complete amino product, or EAA + BCAA

Some of the links and summaries mention weight lifting....but they do very little in just the summaries to support the type of post alan made which makes it sound cut and dry

One thing that threw me off was cardio thing....fasted cardio was shown to be catabolic...but now if you get your protein amounts during the day it's not? And this is over an extended period of time?...which is all useless if fasted and fed cardio had no difference in body comp...then why would anyone do fasted cardio and be unnecessarily uncomfortable

But I haven't dug in yet..so I want to see a little more information to see if some of the questions are answered

 

[mase1]

Does HICA falls in a different category? Effective?

 

[Driven2lift]

Does HICA falls in a different category? Effective?

Quite different, leucine competes with other full aminos but I've never seen this noted from a metabolite, it would be downstream of receptor uptake entirely. HICA would normally be present and active in our body post breakdown of leucine

 

[horizons]

I can't bring myself to waste money on bcaas...

For maybe 1% benefit

 

[Driven2lift]

I can fit steak into a calorie deficit easily enough

Seeing as I account for the calories anyways I'll keep on using my Aminos if I'm fasted before a lift

If I'm fasted it means it's an AM, upon waking lift, food sits heavy eaten 5 minutes before a lift lol. Don't see a reason not to use them

 

[Nac]

I trust Aragons opinion, especially considering he doesnt rep for a company that sells an amino product.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

I'm still torn about the Peptopro.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Just eat a WPC/MC blend (or non-powdered equivalent) ~60 minutes PrWO. Will last all through any "normal" workout. Alan and Brad just put out another one on protein timing too. As long as you meet total daily requirements, you don't even need eat *any* soon after workouts and you make the same gains. Total daily intake is the Majors - Specialty Types, BCAA/EAA, Peptides, Timing, etc... is the Minor$.

 

[Young Gotti]

I can fit steak into a calorie deficit easily enough

Seeing as I account for the calories anyways I'll keep on using my Aminos if I'm fasted before a lift

If I'm fasted it means it's an AM, upon waking lift, food sits heavy eaten 5 minutes before a lift lol. Don't see a reason not to use them

I tend to agree....same with using them if the meal your having doesn't have enough protein in it

 

[The Whizard]

So there would be no benefit to BCAAs if training fasted in the AM?

 

[pro45]

So there would be no benefit to BCAAs if training fasted in the AM?

Technically, you are not in a fasted state if you take bcaa's prior.

 

[Driven2lift]

There is no benefit to fasted training, really.

It just happens like that in some people'e schedules in which case I see nothing against Amino use.

 

[Nac]

...but then not much for it, either.

 

[Driven2lift]

You think the aminos are competing with a lot on an empty stomach?


Like Gotti was getting at as well, aminos could see use within a meal not hitting the leucine threshold, for example.
If we overkill it we run into amino uptake competition, seemingly some form of metabolic stress, and in some cases desensitization in a similar manner to a high glucose load, where MPS will go into a "dip" and not spike again if you just keep ingesting aminos

It's all going to come down to the diet, as ever, and people can be as anal as they'd like to be with the supplementation alongside it

If these studies accomplished one thing hopefully it will be that people won't be chugging aminos like juice anymore.

 

[GreekTheBrick]

The only time I would use BCAA/EAA would be intra, after overnight fasting, just to calm down the feeling of hunger during training. Not to prevent catabolism or gain muscle. IMO

 

[Nac]

You think the aminos are competing with a lot on an empty stomach?


Like Gotti was getting at as well, aminos could see use within a meal not hitting the leucine threshold, for example.
If we overkill it we run into amino uptake competition, seemingly some form of metabolic stress, and in some cases desensitization in a similar manner to a high glucose load, where MPS will go into a "dip" and not spike again if you just keep ingesting aminos

It's all going to come down to the diet, as ever, and people can be as anal as they'd like to be with the supplementation alongside it

If these studies accomplished one thing hopefully it will be that people won't be chugging aminos like juice anymore.

If youre hitting your daily protein total, additional bcaa's are redundant. Doesnt matter where or when you take them.

 

[Driven2lift]

If youre hitting your daily protein total, additional bcaa's are redundant. Doesnt matter where or when you take them.

Assuming enough dietary protein, and decent eating habits, I'd agree amino use has diminished effect, and in excess potential drawbacks

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Well ****. I've been drinking BCAA/EAA between meals to reduce hunger, which works marvelous. But if it can actually reduce gains then I'll guess it's time to stop that.

I also use PeptoPro intra workout. Real chump over here

 

[Nac]

Assuming enough dietary protein, and decent eating habits, I'd agree amino use has diminished effect, and in excess potential drawbacks

Hehe, thats a very calculated use of the word "diminished", as it covers a rather wide unspecified spectrum. Are you going to agree with me that adequate dietary protein "diminishes the effect of additional bcaa's to the point of insignificance"?

 

[Driven2lift]

Insignificance is a term needing defining, we're dealing with pretty small scale changes from supplementation of any kind to begin with.

I won't definitively say anything here, because all the possible parameters for athletes have not been tested yet.

For average Joe going about his day and hitting his protein quota evidence is looking like he won't see benefit.

For a person sporting a good amount of lean mass, who at times trains under high intensity, at times fasted, at times it could be mid-event where food can't be consumed but Aminos can...

I don't disagree with Alan at all, if that wasn't already clear, but they are presenting the known data and still not the entire picture

 

[horizons]

Well ****. I've been drinking BCAA/EAA between meals to reduce hunger, which works marvelous. But if it can actually reduce gains then I'll guess it's time to stop that.

I also use PeptoPro intra workout. Real chump over here

Won't make any difference to your gains

 

[Young Gotti]

Can someone post research on reaching a total amount of protein number during the day...there's a lot of of people saying it

Last I knew you want multiple spikes in mps during the day to be optimal....so if someone is aiming for 250g it would be better to split it into 4 meals every 4 hours to maximize the spikes and give time for the amino levels to level out rather than eating 250g's all at one time

 

[Driven2lift]

^ Many big names have spoken against these diet types as well.

With restricted "eating windows"

Yes 24 hour intake is the big picture, but to get the most MPS over your day (was it Alan who said this even) you will want protein spaced

I'd never suggest less than 3 daily meals, unless a schedule necessitated less.

 

[Nac]

Can someone post research on reaching a total amount of protein number during the day...there's a lot of of people saying it

Last I knew you want multiple spikes in mps during the day to be optimal....so if someone is aiming for 250g it would be better to split it into 4 meals every 4 hours to maximize the spikes and give time for the amino levels to level out rather than eating 250g's all at one time

Sure, so lets keep this specific to this thread:

Bber A
Trains fasted 7am
Eats four meals over course of day, daily PRO intake spread over those four meals
One of those meals is post workout'ish

Bber B
Exactly the same as "Bber A" but has bcaa drink preworkout

If Im following Aragon etc correctly, the Bber adding in the bcaa drink prewo will ultimately see no additional benefits in doing so.

 

[rob112]

I would love to see more on intraworkout use for people like myself who train fasted in the AM, and if we shouldn't use BCAA are intraworkout carbs still considered beneficial?

 

[Young Gotti]

Sure, so lets keep this specific to this thread:

Bber A
Trains fasted 7am
Eats four meals over course of day, daily PRO intake spread over those four meals
One of those meals is post workout'ish

Bber B
Exactly the same as "Bber A" but has bcaa drink preworkout

If Im following Aragon etc correctly, the Bber adding in the bcaa drink prewo will ultimately see no additional benefits in doing so.

OK...now let's say the meal they have before they train is only 3oz of chicken when the optimal amount is 5oz.....then do the BCAAs intraworkout help?

Because in the one link he posted it says something along the lines of whey keeps mps spiked longer which is fine...but it doesn't say that a BCAAs drink or pills don't spike mps at all

Neither scenario really answers the question though...if 250g of protein is your goal and you have optimal eating times which I would say most ppl don't....someone who consumes all 250g of protein at 7am but trains at 7pm is going to have similar body comp as someone who spaces their protein out and gets 250g of protein and multiple spikes throughout the day....because that's kind of what I'm hearing lately and last I knew the total amount is important but it's not the end all be all for optimization

 

[The Solution]

Layne had a conference at the arnold and he suggests supplementing with BCAA's at a meal if you are not getting enough leucine/protein at a given meal.

For example your situation below. If 3oz of chicken is not giving the body proper leucine to stimulate MPS to the furthest degree then adding some BCAA's to that meal would be beneficail to help bump up the protein intake. Same with a meal that is mostly getting protein from trace sources (think a snack of like nuts, a PB & J Sandwich) etc that is taken on the go, you would use a bolus of BCAA's to help reach that protein intake.

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass

OK...now let's say the meal they have before they train is only 3oz of chicken when the optimal amount is 5oz.....then do the BCAAs intraworkout help?

Do they help? Possibly
Again research and personal experience both play a factor here. While many claim BCAA's could be placebo just take everything you read and see with a grain of salt. Apply it to yourself, take notes, and adjust as needed. Try 8 weeks with or without BCAA's and determine for yourself the best outcomes based off your findings.

 

[Young Gotti]

Layne had a conference at the arnold and he suggests supplementing with BCAA's at a meal if you are not getting enough leucine/protein at a given meal.

For example your situation below. If 3oz of chicken is not giving the body proper leucine to stimulate MPS to the furthest degree then adding some BCAA's to that meal would be beneficail to help bump up the protein intake. Same with a meal that is mostly getting protein from trace sources (think a snack of like nuts, a PB & J Sandwich) etc that is taken on the go, you would use a bolus of BCAA's to help reach that protein intake.

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass




Do they help? Possibly
Again research and personal experience both play a factor here. While many claim BCAA's could be placebo just take everything you read and see with a grain of salt. Apply it to yourself, take notes, and adjust as needed. Try 8 weeks with or without BCAA's and determine for yourself the best outcomes based off your findings.

Thank You, I also think Layne Norton did a presentations on getting equal amounts of protein through multiple meals as well. He found splitting the protein as even as possible assuming it was rich enough in protein was better than getting 15% of your protein for breakfast, 15% at lunch, and 70% at dinner.

I've told the story before but years back I used BCAA's intraworkout and didn't think they did much, I went maybe 2 or 3 months using them. Finally I said I'm not noticing anything and stopped using them. After a few weeks I noticed my training my lacking, I didn't have the endurance I had before, I was dropping in intensity much faster in the workout. So I added BCAA's back in and my training improved. You could say it's placebo but I didn't think BCAA's did much....until I stopped using them.

 

[The Solution]

Thank You, I also think Layne Norton did a presentations on getting equal amounts of protein through multiple meals as well. He found splitting the protein as even as possible assuming it was rich enough in protein was better than getting 15% of your protein for breakfast, 15% at lunch, and 70% at dinner.

Just like my quote above

Layne had a conference at the arnold and he suggests supplementing with BCAA's at a meal if you are not getting enough leucine/protein at a given meal.

Depending on what 15% is. is it enough to stimulate MPS? Is it enough leucine at that meal to trigger MPS? That is the real question. It would always be best to spread things out evenly or making sure there is enough protein/leucine to get the maximum benefits of muscle protein synthesis at each protein feeding.

I've told the story before but years back I used BCAA's intraworkout and didn't think they did much, I went maybe 2 or 3 months using them. Finally I said I'm not noticing anything and stopped using them. After a few weeks I noticed my training my lacking, I didn't have the endurance I had before, I was dropping in intensity much faster in the workout. So I added BCAA's back in and my training improved. You could say it's placebo but I didn't think BCAA's did much....until I stopped using them.

Moral of the story right there. Again research is awesome. Its how we learn, its how we change what we do. In the end if it ain't broke don't fix it. In your case you see a difference with and without, so therefore utilizing it may be of your best interest.

 

[Young Gotti]

Just like my quote above



Depending on what 15% is. is it enough to stimulate MPS? Is it enough leucine at that meal to trigger MPS? That is the real question. It would always be best to spread things out evenly or making sure there is enough protein/leucine to get the maximum benefits of muscle protein synthesis at each protein feeding.




Moral of the story right there. Again research is awesome. Its how we learn, its how we change what we do. In the end if it ain't broke don't fix it. In your case you see a difference with and without, so therefore utilizing it may be of your best interest.

Good point, 15% could very well be enough

I was thinking about something I ran into last week when the guy was eating 3 times a day but his post workout meal was like 80grams of protein from chicken breast....I recommended he broke that meal into 2 meals

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Layne also sells BCAA's. So you bring along your 3oz of Chicken and BCAA's, but you can't manage to bring 6oz of Chicken or a Hardboiled Egg or two? LOL. Or a scoop of WPC (which contains AAA's: ALL the Amino Acids) Hahaha. Why limit yourself to 3 or 9 AAs, when you can have them all? And everybody has Protein lying around anyway - two birds, one stone.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I was thinking about something I ran into last week when the guy was eating 3 times a day but his post workout meal was like 80grams of protein from chicken breast....I recommended he broke that meal into 2 meals

Here's one where 70g was better than 40g:

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2016/11/pwo-nutrition-40-vs-70g-food-protein-no.html

 

[Young Gotti]

Here's one where 70g was better than 40g:

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2016/11/pwo-nutrition-40-vs-70g-food-protein-no.html

Yeah but that write up leaves a lot to be desired

 

[Bkj4son]

Very interesting post my man. Like reading things that cause debates like this

Hi Tech rep? Is Lipodrene the best fat burner out there for a guy or theres better? worked well for me a few months ago.