BCAAs?

[Tylerclee]

What are some of yals prospective on bcaas making a difference in a calorie surplus, especially pre-workout?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Are you eating any protein (powder, milk, chicken, eggs, steak...) anywhere within a couple hours before training? If so - ZERO.

 

[LeanEngineer]

If your diet is in check then they aren't needed as much. If you're doing fasted cardio that is when they are essential. Amino IV is a great one.

 

[ManimalPatB]

Are BCAAs essential to training? No

Can they be helpful? Sure

I use BCAAs as an intra and have been going on 4 years now. This may be right or wrong but I have noticed better workouts and better recovery when I am using BCAAs (still with my diet on point) versus when I do not use BCAAs

But that is just me

 

[Tylerclee]

Yea I was curious as to others opinions. For the piece of mind I use them intra workout. I take them intra to ensure that no amino acids are being robbed from the muscle. I feel like it all boils down to the money you wanna spend. Possibly slightly helpful. Like I said I was just curious on others take on this. Thanks

 

[Young Gotti]

I'm a huge fan of aminos intraworkout, I feel like I have more endurance, fuller, and better recovery when I use them vs when I don't....are they essential: no, no supplements are

currently using a combo of iforce compete and chain'd out

 

[ManimalPatB]

I'm a huge fan of aminos intraworkout, I feel like I have more endurance, fuller, and better recovery when I use them vs when I don't....are they essential: no, no supplements are

currently using a combo of iforce compete and chain'd out

Compete is my go to right now!!! It's soooooooooooo good!!!!!

 

[Young Gotti]

Compete is my go to right now!!! It's soooooooooooo good!!!!!

it's amazing, especially in the hot summer months

 

[Rocket3015]

I enjoy my Get Diesel BCAA intraworkout !!

 

[rhoadx]

I'm a huge fan of aminos intraworkout, I feel like I have more endurance, fuller, and better recovery when I use them vs when I don't....are they essential: no, no supplements are

currently using a combo of iforce compete and chain'd out

I agree with this. Most people will say that they are unnecessary if not training fasted, and protein needs are met ( I was one of those people until recently). I've been drinking eaa with additional taurine intra workout ( and not training fasted either) I have noticed that DOMS is almost completely eliminated.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

If someone can tell me what happened to *all* the amino acids (which include the BCAA and EAA) in the Milk (80/20 Casein-Whey), Protein (50/50 Casein-Whey), and Oats I ate 90 minutes ago - that they aren't available to my body anymore.... I may change my mind on BCAA even if you eat food.

 

[Young Gotti]

If someone can tell me what happened to *all* the amino acids (which include the BCAA and EAA) in the Milk (80/20 Casein-Whey), Protein (50/50 Casein-Whey), and Oats I ate 90 minutes ago - that they aren't available to my body anymore.... I may change my mind on BCAA even if you eat food.

no one is saying that, but that still doesn't mean aminos during training still don't add a benefit

 

[The_Old_Guy]

no one is saying that, but that still doesn't mean aminos during training still don't add a benefit

If you have more than you need via food - what does consuming even more do? Granted the "need" number may be unknown and I understand wanting insurance, but would quadruple scooping your BCAA every workout give you even more gains?

 

[Young Gotti]

If you have more than you need via food - what does consuming even more do? Granted the "need" number may be unknown and I understand wanting insurance, but would quadruple scooping your BCAA every workout give you even more gains?

When you eat a balanced meal 1 to 2 hours before your workout and about an half our before a whey shake with oats you have plenty of BCAA in your nutrition that helps to combat protein breakdown. So what’s the advantages of BCAA during your workout or some BCAA midnight in comparison to a blended protein shake.

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote

——————————-
Despite the numerous positive benefits to BCAA supplementation, there are many skeptics who suggest that BCAAs are overpriced and that one can just increase their consumption of whey protein which is rich in BCAAs. Unfortunately this is not the case. The BCAAs in whey are peptide bound to other amino acids and must be liberated through digestion & absorbed into the bloodstream to exert their effects. Even though whey protein is relatively fast digesting, it still takes several hours for all the amino acids to be liberated & absorbed into the bloodstream. BCAAs in supplement form however, are free form BCAAs and require no digestion and are therefore rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream, spiking blood amino acids to a much greater extent than peptide bound amino acids. Even a few grams of BCAAs will spike plasma levels of BCAAs to a much greater extent than a 30g dose of whey protein, impacting protein synthesis and protein degradation to a much greater degree. The reason a supplement has such a powerful effect on blood levels of BCAAs is that unlike other amino acids, BCAAs are not metabolized to a significant extent by the small intestine or the liver, therefore an oral supplement is more like a BCAA injection since it reaches the bloodstream so rapidly.


that's written from layne norton....I don't personally recommend super dosing bcaa's intra, right now I use 1 scoop compete (2.5g whey hydrosylate), 1 scoop of alri chain'd out...however most people I know don't train twice a day, they do lifting and cardio in the same session and cardio has the ability to blunt MPS and bcaa's especially leucine are known to increase MPS, so your combatting the negatives from shutting off MPS with something to help keep MPS stimulated

 

[Blergs]

unless cutting or going on long runs and adding it to your water i wouldent spend the money i would just get a protein powder.

 

[Rocket3015]

I would like to get Chuck Diesel input here !!!

 

[Rocket3015]

I would like to get Chuck Diesel input here !!!

 

[Jiigzz]

When you eat a balanced meal 1 to 2 hours before your workout and about an half our before a whey shake with oats you have plenty of BCAA in your nutrition that helps to combat protein breakdown. So what’s the advantages of BCAA during your workout or some BCAA midnight in comparison to a blended protein shake.

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote

——————————-
Despite the numerous positive benefits to BCAA supplementation, there are many skeptics who suggest that BCAAs are overpriced and that one can just increase their consumption of whey protein which is rich in BCAAs. Unfortunately this is not the case. The BCAAs in whey are peptide bound to other amino acids and must be liberated through digestion & absorbed into the bloodstream to exert their effects. Even though whey protein is relatively fast digesting, it still takes several hours for all the amino acids to be liberated & absorbed into the bloodstream. BCAAs in supplement form however, are free form BCAAs and require no digestion and are therefore rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream, spiking blood amino acids to a much greater extent than peptide bound amino acids. Even a few grams of BCAAs will spike plasma levels of BCAAs to a much greater extent than a 30g dose of whey protein, impacting protein synthesis and protein degradation to a much greater degree. The reason a supplement has such a powerful effect on blood levels of BCAAs is that unlike other amino acids, BCAAs are not metabolized to a significant extent by the small intestine or the liver, therefore an oral supplement is more like a BCAA injection since it reaches the bloodstream so rapidly.


that's written from layne norton....I don't personally recommend super dosing bcaa's intra, right now I use 1 scoop compete (2.5g whey hydrosylate), 1 scoop of alri chain'd out...however most people I know don't train twice a day, they do lifting and cardio in the same session and cardio has the ability to blunt MPS and bcaa's especially leucine are known to increase MPS, so your combatting the negatives from shutting off MPS with something to help keep MPS stimulated

While this may be true, its whether any of that makes a difference in the large scale of things. It's easy to focus on something and make it compelling, but what it's the net advantage

 

[Young Gotti]

While this may be true, its whether any of that makes a difference in the large scale of things. It's easy to focus on something and make it compelling, but what it's the net advantage

well why wouldn't keeping MPS turned on or even elevated during training over it shutting off be beneficial?

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Let's say I eat a pretty big meal at 3PM. Lift from 5-7:30 (maybe some cardio at the end). Eat again at 9-9:30. Also cutting. That's about 6-6.5 hours no food with a workout in between.

Would it be beneficial to take BCAAs intra workout, say about 6:30-7?

 

[Jiigzz]

well why wouldn't keeping MPS turned on or even elevated during training over it shutting off be beneficial?

For one, you need refractory periods to stimulate MPS - you can't have it 'on' all the time. Secondly, people focus far too much on the smallest of data (i.e. the anabolic window), but when you step back, account for total protein and Calories, all of a sudden those little details don't amount to much. Granted, these things may change where gear is involved, but for the majority of gym goers, these small details won't substantiate into much.

Edit: by small, I mean focusing on short periods of time and not the whole picture.

 

[Young Gotti]

For one, you need refractory periods to stimulate MPS - you can't have it 'on' all the time. Secondly, people focus far too much on the smallest of data (i.e. the anabolic window), but when you step back, account for total protein and Calories, all of a sudden those little details don't amount to much. Granted, these things may change where gear is involved, but for the majority of gym goers, these small details won't substantiate into much.

Edit: by small, I mean focusing on short periods of time and not the whole picture.

yes but wouldn't you want these refractory periods during the period of non exercise, especially when something like cardio has been shown to be catabolic? the refractory period shows that nutrient timing could play a key role in amounting to something, since the goal would be to maximize the benefits of protein multiple times during the day rather than eating a days worth of protein in 1 sitting

someone once said if bcaa's intraworkout make out for a 3-4% benefit, then you need to weigh if it's worth it or not to you, it's not a necessity....but most supplements may give people a 1% bump in benefits,but people still swear by them

 

[Jiigzz]

yes but wouldn't you want these refractory periods during the period of non exercise, especially when something like cardio has been shown to be catabolic? the refractory period shows that nutrient timing could play a key role in amounting to something, since the goal would be to maximize the benefits of protein multiple times during the day rather than eating a days worth of protein in 1 sitting

someone once said if bcaa's intraworkout make out for a 3-4% benefit, then you need to weigh if it's worth it or not to you, it's not a necessity....but most supplements may give people a 1% bump in benefits,but people still swear by them

Again, forest and trees. Prolonged cardio is catabolic, but that makes sense doesn't it? You break down substrates to use as fuel, or to be re-used as anabolic substrates. Excessive catabolism is problematic for muscle growth, short periods are not.

Agreed that spacing out protein is better than in one sitting, that much I agree with. But whether or not also adding in BCAAs at maintenance Calories/ surplus is debatable for MPS, especially when refractory periods have not occurred. I won't argue on it for recovery or anything else though.

FWIW i'm neither for or against BCAA/ EAA supplements. My main point was that very often it is easy to convince people to think a certain way when you present data that is very specific to a small period of time. For example, I could make people freak out that exercise increases ROS if I wanted, or any other manner of things. But it's whether these are an issue when you consider the big picture that it becomes important.

 

[Young Gotti]

Again, forest and trees. Prolonged cardio is catabolic, but that makes sense doesn't it? You break down substrates to use as fuel, or to be re-used as anabolic substrates. Excessive catabolism is problematic for muscle growth, short periods are not.

Agreed that spacing out protein is better than in one sitting, that much I agree with. But whether or not also adding in BCAAs at maintenance Calories/ surplus is debatable for MPS, especially when refractory periods have not occurred. I won't argue on it for recovery or anything else though.

FWIW i'm neither for or against BCAA/ EAA supplements. My main point was that very often it is easy to convince people to think a certain way when you present data that is very specific to a small period of time. For example, I could make people freak out that exercise increases ROS if I wanted, or any other manner of things. But it's whether these are an issue when you consider the big picture that it becomes important.

That's true, but what is considered prolonged after you've just had an intense weight lifting session before hand? when you combine both of them the cardio could have a negative effect on recovery from weigh training and most importantly dem gainz!

and that's assuming someone has maximized protein synthesis before training, if we go by the little bit theoldman posted about protein, someone takes 1 scoop of whey at lets estimate at 20g's of protein, they aren't fully maximizing the protein synthesis so the leucine in the aminos could help reach maximum protein synthesis

 

[The_Old_Guy]

...if we go by the little bit theoldman posted about protein, someone takes 1 scoop of whey at lets estimate at 20g's of protein, they aren't fully maximizing the protein synthesis so the leucine in the aminos could help reach maximum protein synthesis

I get 34g from a WPC/Casein Blend and 1% Milk + the small amount in the Oats. I've been meticulously tracking all fitness parameters for going on 3 years now. Believe me, if using BCAA's did something over and above food, I'd use them. Did that info from Layne Norton come before, or after he started selling supplements?

From the Aragon/Schoenfeld Meta Analysis on Nutrient Timing:

Distilling the data into firm, specific recommendations is difficult due to the inconsistency of findings and scarcity of systematic investigations seeking to optimize pre- and/or post-exercise protein dosage and timing. Practical nutrient timing applications for the goal of muscle hypertrophy inevitably must be tempered with field observations and experience in order to bridge gaps in the scientific literature. With that said, high-quality protein dosed at 0.4–0.5 g/kg of LBM at both pre- and post-exercise is a simple, relatively fail-safe general guideline that reflects the current evidence showing a maximal acute anabolic effect of 20–40 g [53, 84, 85]. For example, someone with 70 kg of LBM would consume roughly 28–35 g protein in both the pre- and post exercise meal. Exceeding this would be have minimal detriment if any, whereas significantly under-shooting or neglecting it altogether would not maximize the anabolic response.

Due to the transient anabolic impact of a protein-rich meal and its potential synergy with the trained state, pre- and post-exercise meals should not be separated by more than approximately 3–4 hours, given a typical resistance training bout lasting 45–90 minutes. If protein is delivered within particularly large mixed-meals (which are inherently more anticatabolic), a case can be made for lengthening the interval to 5–6 hours. This strategy covers the hypothetical timing benefits while allowing significant flexibility in the length of the feeding windows before and after training. Specific timing within this general framework would vary depending on individual preference and tolerance, as well as exercise duration. One of many possible examples involving a 60-minute resistance training bout could have up to 90-minute feeding windows on both sides of the bout, given central placement between the meals. In contrast, bouts exceeding typical duration would default to shorter feeding windows if the 3–4 hour pre- to post-exercise meal interval is maintained. Shifting the training session closer to the pre- or post-exercise meal should be dictated by personal preference, tolerance, and lifestyle/scheduling constraints.

Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations. It is tempting to recommend pre- and post-exercise carbohydrate doses that at least match or exceed the amounts of protein consumed in these meals. However, carbohydrate availability during and after exercise is of greater concern for endurance as opposed to strength or hypertrophy goals. Furthermore, the importance of co-ingesting post-exercise protein and carbohydrate has recently been challenged by studies examining the early recovery period, particularly when sufficient protein is provided. Koopman et al [52] found that after full-body resistance training, adding carbohydrate (0.15, or 0.6 g/kg/hr) to amply dosed casein hydrolysate (0.3 g/kg/hr) did not increase whole body protein balance during a 6-hour post-exercise recovery period compared to the protein-only treatment. Subsequently, Staples et al [53] reported that after lower-body resistance exercise (leg extensions), the increase in post-exercise muscle protein balance from ingesting 25 g whey isolate was not improved by an additional 50 g maltodextrin during a 3-hour recovery period. For the goal of maximizing rates of muscle gain, these findings support the broader objective of meeting total daily carbohydrate need instead of specifically timing its constituent doses. Collectively, these data indicate an increased potential for dietary flexibility while maintaining the pursuit of optimal timing.

 

[Young Gotti]

I get 34g from a WPC/Casein Blend and 1% Milk + the small amount in the Oats. I've been meticulously tracking all fitness parameters for going on 3 years now. Believe me, if using BCAA's did something over and above food, I'd use them. Did that info from Layne Norton come before, or after he started selling supplements?

From the Aragon/Schoenfeld Meta Analysis on Nutrient Timing:

Ok?

 

[Chefdeez]

I've used BCAAs intraworkout for years now and I just decided I won't be doing so anymore. I haven't noticed anything at all and that's me being honest with myself.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Ok?

Food's good enough.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I've used BCAAs intraworkout for years now and I just decided I won't be doing so anymore. I haven't noticed anything at all and that's me being honest with myself.

I tried out 2 jugs of Meadows' 'Intra-MD' - saw no improvement in anything either.

 

[Young Gotti]

I've used BCAAs intraworkout for years now and I just decided I won't be doing so anymore. I haven't noticed anything at all and that's me being honest with myself.

that's where I was the opposite, I didn't think bcaa's were doing anything, so I stopped using them and noticed a big difference

 

[Woody]

well why wouldn't keeping MPS turned on or even elevated during training over it shutting off be beneficial?

Cooper said this is bad... You want a refractionary period and ~*sCiEnCe~*

 

[Young Gotti]

Food's good enough.

I disagree and in terms of what? performance in the gym?

 

[Young Gotti]

Cooper said this is bad... You want a refractionary period and ~*sCiEnCe~*

my point is I would rather have a refractory period when I'm not at the gym and my amino levels elevated while I'm doing strenuous activity...and well he said a lot of things

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I disagree...

If we all agreed, this place would be boring

 

[Young Gotti]

If we all agreed, this place would be boring

hell yeah, that's what forums are for

 

[ma70]

I workout fasted and using BCAA/EAAs/Intra Carbs have helped me recover better (I prefer high frequency over high volume). I don't really think they help with gains but I don't really care. I think being able to workout more often is pretty good stuff, which in turn, leads to said gains.

 

[machinehead]

I tried out 2 jugs of Meadows' 'Intra-MD' - saw no improvement in anything either.

That's interesting. I get a significant jolt from HBCD alone but my meals are at least 6 hours apart and I am always lifting at least 3 hours after solid food. I see nothing tangible from EAA/BCAA though.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I workout fasted and using BCAA/EAAs/Intra Carbs have helped me recover better (I prefer high frequency over high volume). I don't really think they help with gains but I don't really care. I think being able to workout more often is pretty good stuff, which in turn, leads to said gains.

I'd use them if I trained fasted.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

That's interesting. I get a significant jolt from HBCD alone but my meals are at least 6 hours apart and I am always lifting at least 3 hours after solid food. I see nothing tangible from EAA/BCAA though.

It was so long ago, I can't remember what I felt from the HBCD - all I know is that the log book didn't show anything that would make me continue to purchase. I also am stim tolerant, so I use a lot of CAF and may have also used E-HCL - so the HBCD may have been overshadowed.

 

[machinehead]

Absolutely

 

[double s]

May be mental but I do feel better when taken during intra, also helps flavor my bland water. More companies "spicing", not "spiking" their BCAA's with Citrulline, agmatine etc......the few I have tried, I can say I have seen better lifts and decreased times between reps