AM Cardio

Thebigc4

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Hey guys, I am about to start doing cardio in the morning. Steady state running for around 15-30 minutes, 3 times per week, with a 5 mile run maybe once every two weeks. Purpose here is to exclusively get better at running. If I happened to get a bit leaner as well, that is just icing on the cake.

Question is whats the best way to go about this to maintain as much muscle as possible? Completely fasted? BCAAs before? EAAs before? Protein shake before? Or should I just eat breakfast before doing it?

Thanks for any suggestions, AM community is wicked!
 
toddmuelheim

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Eat before your run, after your run, and if you'd like to have something during your run that would be ok too.
 
john.patterson

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I would suggest having at least a protein shake before your run. Fasted cardio is typically recommended to be done at low intensity (ex. walking on an incline). But since you'll be doing a moderate type of cardio, a shake or meal before will prevent muscle breakdown and improve performance.
 
LeanEngineer

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Truthfully i would say just get in a meal before you run. That would be the best and you would have the energy you need to improve you're running. Also a good supp to think about to preserve muscle mass and increase you're endurance would be an epicatechin product. That may be a good addition to take with your meal. hope this helps.
 
jgntyce

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Evomuse BMP has aided me in preserving muscle mass as I have been running more and more.
 
kboxer7

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Soon to be ENDU3R will have you covered.

Its launching at the Arnold, and we'll have a site-wide sale online as well.
 
jgntyce

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Soon to be ENDU3R will have you covered.

Its launching at the Arnold, and we'll have a site-wide sale online as well.
Nice. What exactly is Endu3r again and what will the num3rous benefits be?
 
kboxer7

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Nice. What exactly is Endu3r again and what will the num3rous benefits be?
24/7 anabolic/anti-catabolic.

Designed to be an intra, but could be utilized in a number of ways such as:

- Intra
- before any fasted workout
- in-between meals to preserve muscle/ramp up anabolism
- At work/on the go

Etc
 
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toddmuelheim

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24/7 anabolic/anti-catabolic.

Designed to be an intra, but could be utilized in a number of ways such as:

- Intra
- before any fasted workout
- in-between meals to preserve muscle/ramp up anabolism
- At work/on the go

Etc
What flavors ?
 
jgntyce

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24/7 anabolic/anti-catabolic.

Designed to be an intra, but could be utilized in a number of ways such as:

- Intra
- before any fasted workout
- in-between meals to preserve muscle/ramp up anabolism
- At work/on the go

Etc
Exce11ent!
 
kboxer7

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The Solution

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Running would be higher intensity than most who do LISS (Low Intensity Steady State). If you are running to increase your performance I would suggest a small meal, carb snack, or protein shake. Whatever settles easiest on your stomach to help fuel the fire for your cardio session in the AM

if you wanted to do it fasted I would suggest a BCAA Product + added carbs in the forms of whole food or powder (banana + BCAA) or BCAA + Glycofuse or Waxy Maize to help with endurance during your run especially if you are working upward to 5 miles on some occasions. With an individual and their goal on endurance and sustaining their energy going on an empty tank may be disaster. I would rather see you be safe than sorry and fill the tank with energy. The focus of running is running in an optimal environment to improve. Filling the tank with gas (energy) instead of running on empty may provide better success.\

Alan Aragon had a nice piece of fasted cardio on his website:

http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-part-2-false-hopes-for-fasted-cardio.html
http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-the-fat-burning-zone-fasted-cardio.html
http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-part-3-discussion-afterthoughts.html
 
kbayne

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If doing LISS, you're fine totally fasted with no BCAA or anything.

If doing HIIT, I would for sure have a shake or BCAA prior to.
 
Aleksandar37

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Echoing what most of the others have already said, go with whatever you would typically eat as long as you have enough time to digest it before running. Since you're going for increased endurance, no need to worry about fasted training.
 
Zoomie33240

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Good stuff here! I have to agree that you definitely want to eat a meal first (whether it be powdered or whole food) if you are trying to improve performance. If you are trying to burn fat then fasted is perfectly fine. However, sometimes it is preferable to run/train fasted if you are preparing for the type of environment that you will need to let your body adapt to training fasted in (such as training to get used to early morning/fasted training for military basic training or something similar). But if you are just training to improve performance I would definitely have to say eat a meal first. It will help a lot.
 

alwaysfirst

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BCAA and caffeine if you run first thing in the morning, eat breakfast after, run as fast or slow as you want, 15-30 min run will not hurt your "gains". If you run hard for an hour or so I would suggest something more but otherwise you're totally fine with just amino's.

It's very few on this board that actually knows how to run, lol, it's even less that would hurt their "gains" with a fasted am run...
 
john.patterson

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BCAA and caffeine if you run first thing in the morning, eat breakfast after, run as fast or slow as you want, 15-30 min run will not hurt your "gains". If you run hard for an hour or so I would suggest something more but otherwise you're totally fine with just amino's.

It's very few on this board that actually knows how to run, lol, it's even less that would hurt their "gains" with a fasted am run...
There's more to it than just 'losing gains'. OP said he wants to run more to get better at running. So a recommendation to eat a small meal before running would optimize performance. I agree with you about losing muscle, but I always feel like I can train harder and I feel stronger when I get some calories in before training
 
Captn_the

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If doing LISS, you're fine totally fasted with no BCAA or anything.

If doing HIIT, I would for sure have a shake or BCAA prior to.
Agreed. The amount and intensity is hardly going to strip muscle. Even with short burst HIIT you'd be fine fasted.

Just get in a decent meal after and maybe a strong coffee prior.

You don't NEED supplements to get the job done ;)
 
bolt10

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Depending on how early you get up and run you'd be fine with a small meal before if you can or a BCAA/EAA blend during.

With performance of the run being of improbable I would also possibly opt for some carbs (shouldn't need a ton, but they may still offer some slight benefits).

In the end it won't make a huge difference, so stick with what will be convenient, but small carb + pro intake around the run in the easiest way for you would be my overall suggestion.
 

Daycrawler

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Overall, it's what works best for you. The only real answer is trial and error, if you enjoy heavy carbs before or after then go for it. If you like to run/cardio fasted then you can do that also.
 

alwaysfirst

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There's more to it than just 'losing gains'. OP said he wants to run more to get better at running. So a recommendation to eat a small meal before running would optimize performance. I agree with you about losing muscle, but I always feel like I can train harder and I feel stronger when I get some calories in before training
I would understand your logic if he was asking about an marathon, but he only wants to run for 15-30 min, which is no problem at all to do fasted.
 
JudoJosh

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I just got an airdyne bike. Started doing fasted intervals when I wake up before class. Fun mornings here ;)
 
bighulksmash

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24/7 anabolic/anti-catabolic.

Designed to be an intra, but could be utilized in a number of ways such as:

- Intra
- before any fasted workout
- in-between meals to preserve muscle/ramp up anabolism
- At work/on the go

Etc
Wat are the key ingredients? I've heard of this and forgot. Now I'm interested.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Also realize that "losing muscle" is way more hype than science. 30 - 45 minutes of LISS/MISS fasted cardio isn't going to burn off "gains". Since the OP wants to get "better" at running, like John Patterson said - you should eat and head over to a Running Forum, cuz we'all just want to lose fat and not keel over from a heart attack :)
 
john.patterson

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Also realize that "losing muscle" is way more hype than science. 30 - 45 minutes of LISS/MISS fasted cardio isn't going to burn off "gains". Since the OP wants to get "better" at running, like John Patterson said - you should eat and head over to a Running Forum, cuz we'all just want to lose fat and not keel over from a heart attack :)
Hahaha nicely said. I know cardio has its place, but I've never decided to run simply because I wanted to get better at running. Most people on AM are interested in muscle gain, strength, and body composition. I'm sure OP would get better advice on a running forum
 
bighulksmash

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Also realize that "losing muscle" is way more hype than science. 30 - 45 minutes of LISS/MISS fasted cardio isn't going to burn off "gains". Since the OP wants to get "better" at running, like John Patterson said - you should eat and head over to a Running Forum, cuz we'all just want to lose fat and not keel over from a heart attack :)
Lol repped for perfection! !!
 
JudoJosh

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Also realize that "losing muscle" is way more hype than science. 30 - 45 minutes of LISS/MISS fasted cardio isn't going to burn off "gains". Since the OP wants to get "better" at running, like John Patterson said - you should eat and head over to a Running Forum, cuz we'all just want to lose fat and not keel over from a heart attack :)
There is actually a decent amount of science there. The issue is timing and frequency of the cardio more so then just cardio in general
 
The_Old_Guy

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There is actually a decent amount of science there. The issue is timing and frequency of the cardio more so then just cardio in general
Sure, but I think the average recreational lifter who doesn't have to earn a living off of his LBM, doing 2 or 3 fasted cardio sessions a week to drop some bodyfat - while concurrently eating a good amount of protein, lifting regular and heavy, and sleeping well - is really making much ado about nothing, worrying about muscle loss from that type of cardio.
 
Captn_the

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Sure, but I think the average recreational lifter who doesn't have to earn a living off of his LBM, doing 2 or 3 fasted cardio sessions a week to drop some bodyfat - while concurrently eating a good amount of protein, lifting regular and heavy, and sleeping well - is really making much ado about nothing, worrying about muscle loss from that type of cardio.
Omfg some sanity within this forum at last! :lol:
 

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Listen to the 'Eye of the Tiger' while running up stairs with an occasional fist pump....it's the fastest way to build endurance and magically retain all lbm...for bonus points you can run into a meat locker and punch a few carcasses.

Oh and probably have some raisins beforehand...
 
JudoJosh

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Sure, but I think the average recreational lifter who doesn't have to earn a living off of his LBM, doing 2 or 3 fasted cardio sessions a week to drop some bodyfat - while concurrently eating a good amount of protein, lifting regular and heavy, and sleeping well - is really making much ado about nothing, worrying about muscle loss from that type of cardio.
Sure but again, there is actual science here. Insinuating there isn't is neither helpful nor accurate. We can accept the reality in which we live and be pragmatic about it.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Sure but again, there is actual science here. Insinuating there isn't is neither helpful nor accurate. We can accept the reality in which we live and be pragmatic about it.
I just looked at a lot of data on this - I found just as many studies saying *do cardio* before weights to improve the physique, as ones saying LISS/MISS cardio increases expression of catabolic muscle proteins. I still say that for my buddy, who feeds his kids by getting paid as a welder and has a few % points of bodyfat to lose, 2-3x week of 30min fasted cardio isn't going to decrease his "gains" a whole lot to matter at the end of a year. I agree that you can provide data on cardio induced catabolisim - I disagree that it matters one iota to recreational (ie. unpaid) lifters. Plus, I'd rather live 10 more years, than die younger but "swole" :)

Edit: I may head over to Alex Viada's site to see what that Triathlon winning Power Lifter does.
 
JudoJosh

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Clearly missing the point

And for the record, Viada will state, as he has stated in the past, cardio does impair muscle growth. Why? Because it is a reality. Does he say cardio is evil? No. Does he say you can do both? Yes, because both are true, but at the same time he doesn't pretend and deny the reality of it.

Again, you are conflating here. Accepting the reality that cardio impairs gains does not mean one shouldn't do cardio. It is what it is. The data is the data. We can't and shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. We can accept the reality and look for pragmatic options where we can do both if we so choose, but closing your eyes and sticking your head in the sand is not helpful
 
The_Old_Guy

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Clearly missing the point

And for the record, Viada will state, as he has stated in the past, cardio does impair muscle growth. Why? Because it is a reality. Does he say cardio is evil? No. Does he say you can do both? Yes, because both are true, but at the same time he doesn't pretend and deny the reality of it.

Again, you are conflating here. Accepting the reality that cardio impairs gains does not mean one shouldn't do cardio. It is what it is. The data is the data. We can't and shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. We can accept the reality and look for pragmatic options where we can do both if we so choose, but closing your eyes and sticking your head in the sand is not helpful
Hello other ship, nice night we're having, have a safe voyage :) My head isn't in the sand, I never said (well, maybe I did somewhere up there, but I ain't going back to read it again, and if I did, let me re-state) that you will lose zero micro-grams of LBM if you do any cardio vs if you don't. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter if you are eating, resting, and programming properly. Assigning an arbitrary number and borrowing from Paula Abdul, it's like 10 steps forward and 1 step back. If you earn a living off your LBM, then you want that 1 step... for 99.9% of the rest of us, you'll look and perform about the same and be a whole lot healthier. Final say is yours if you want it, I don't have anything different to keep adding.
 
Captn_the

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Clearly missing the point

And for the record, Viada will state, as he has stated in the past, cardio does impair muscle growth. Why? Because it is a reality. Does he say cardio is evil? No. Does he say you can do both? Yes, because both are true, but at the same time he doesn't pretend and deny the reality of it.

Again, you are conflating here. Accepting the reality that cardio impairs gains does not mean one shouldn't do cardio. It is what it is. The data is the data. We can't and shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. We can accept the reality and look for pragmatic options where we can do both if we so choose, but closing your eyes and sticking your head in the sand is not helpful
Are you arguing for the sake of it?

Or are you part of the forum agenda to push worthless supplements on hapless n00bs ;)
 
JudoJosh

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Forum agenda?
 

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Cardio post workout is a godsend for me. Try to do 5 miles/week at a minimum.
 
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Eating a small meal before a few miles is not totally necessary, your body cannot digest the food to make it useful. I lift AND do triathlons, it is a challenge to keep my mass but during tri season I know I will lose some for sure. It is typically recommended to have maybe a gel with aminos, carbs, caffeine and a carb drink pre race for a sprint, this is a .5 mi swim, 12 mi bike, 3 mi run. Your body should be fueled already.

When I run in the AM I have some aminos with carbs, you should not need a meal for a few miles. When I'm doing a 40+ mile ride I will have a small meal with a bagel/muffin, pb, honey and an amino drink 1 hr pre.

I would stick with aminos with carbs pre and a meal post.
 
Captn_the

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Eating a small meal before a few miles is not totally necessary, your body cannot digest the food to make it useful. I lift AND do triathlons, it is a challenge to keep my mass but during tri season I know I will lose some for sure. It is typically recommended to have maybe a gel with aminos, carbs, caffeine and a carb drink pre race for a sprint, this is a .5 mi swim, 12 mi bike, 3 mi run. Your body should be fueled already.

When I run in the AM I have some aminos with carbs, you should not need a meal for a few miles. When I'm doing a 40+ mile ride I will have a small meal with a bagel/muffin, pb, honey and an amino drink 1 hr pre.

I would stick with aminos with carbs pre and a meal post.
Have you ever tried MCT oil as and energy source? If not Google 'bulletproof diet' - it's not for everyone but some people get good results. I've used it on a cut before.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Eating a small meal before a few miles is not totally necessary, your body cannot digest the food to make it useful.
My wife and daughter are both Type-1 Diabetics. I'm not an expert on energy availability, but I do know that they can raise their blood sugar within 10 minutes with simple carbs. I don't know how that translates for runners, but something does happen pretty quick.
 
smallba

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AM cardio i'll eat Banana an hour or so and spend about 15-20 min then hit the abs up and head out to work.
 
The Whizard

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How many BCAAs would be recommended before AM running as the OP was talking about?
 

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I personally haven't noticed a difference between different BCAA products. Used a bunch of different ones including Amino IV, Xtend, All Day You May (rich piana's), Aminox, and whatever the gaspari one is called. Most have different ratios, different profiles and to be honest I haven't been able to tell a difference in "feel" during a workout at all. I've read that somewhere between 3-5g of leucine is necessary for MPS but that again isn't something that you can feel happening. So I have simply changed to get the best tasting one if I am going to use one. BSN Aminox was my favourite for a long time taste wise.

I just had surgery on my left ankle a month ago and have surgery coming up on my right ankle in 5 weeks. Haven't spent as much time in the gym as I would like so once I'm healed up and am able to start training legs and running again, I think I will throw up a log testing a few methods found here since I'll be starting from a ~5 months off from the gym state.
 

MMAMONSTER19

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Is there a question here or just a statement?? BCAAs you don't really feel but you should have better endurance during your workouts and better recovery from using. I use AminoX 1 scoop intra. I have better endurance and I don't get as sore with DOMS and my recovery is a bit quicker and they taste real good and help preserve muscle so keep em
 

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I was just answering the question above my post about how much to take and that while science does say there is optimal amount, I was saying having tried several different amounts I could not tell the difference between a 2:1:1 ratio of 3g leucine vs a 10:1:1 ratio with around 5g leucine in terms of real world feel, recovery, endurance etc.
 
The Solution

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How many BCAAs would be recommended before AM running as the OP was talking about?
10g
Some bcaa products contain recovery and endurance ingredients such as
HICA (amino IV)
Citrulline (Xtend)
LCLT

Which could make an impact on recovery compared to just a bulk bcaa
 
The Whizard

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10g
Some bcaa products contain recovery and endurance ingredients such as
HICA (amino IV)
Citrulline (Xtend)
LCLT

Which could make an impact on recovery compared to just a bulk bcaa
Would taking 1 serving (2 scoops) of Amino IV be enough to preserve muscle mass?
 

alwaysfirst

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Would taking 1 serving (2 scoops) of Amino IV be enough to preserve muscle mass?
It all depends on what you planing on doing, you won't lose any muscle mass with a 20-30 min jog regardless of BCAA's and if you running a marathon you need a whole lot more than just BCAA's.
 

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