- 04-11-2005, 11:16 AM
I have read many threads where supplementation is recommended to alleviate cramps experienced during cycles of M1T and SD, but have been unable to find out why?
I understand it works from user feedback but can anybody explain why it works?
A thread on BB.com contained the quote below by bigcat, but I’m not overly confident and would like to hear from some of the more experienced here.
"It has come to my attention that some people have been adding to their diets to decrease cramping from clenbuterol or other beta-adrenergic agonists. Whether or not there is any merit to this, I really don't know. I haven't seen any data one way or the other. I assume there must be some truth to the rumour or people wouldn't be doing it. Then again...
Regardless however, supplementing extra taurine during a diet is not advisable. It is indeed true that beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol and ephedrine will reduce taurine levels, no question about it. But did anyone ever stop to think that maybe this has a reason? Your protein intake should stay the same, roughly, which means that these compounds are actively reducing taurine levels.
If anyone had bothered to look these things up for a few seconds they would have known it is with good reason. Taurine may inhibit fat loss in different ways. First of all it will increase insulin sensitivity. I didn't even need to state that, it has been used in supplements with varying success for that exact same reason. If we know that many effective fat loss aids work primarily by lowering insulin resistance (Growth hormone, noradrenaline, etc), we already know this is not a bright idea.
This lowers the threshold at which glycogen is stored again. This will increase chance of gaining fat during cheat days due to sensitivity of fat cells to insulin, and limit fat lost on dieting days since the extra stored glycogen will have to be burned again before you start burning fat again.
This is however the least of your concerns. Taurine is also known to reduce Thyroid levels. Studies have demonstrated that a high platelet level of taurine will reduce T3:T4 ratio in men. This would slow down your metabolic rate, meaning you use less calories than you would otherwise. Obviously this will result in less fat lost for the same amount of calories eaten.
Taurine may also reduce cAMP production in certain animals. The extrapolation in this case is a far fetch, but something I would like to see tested in humans. Since the cAMP acts as a second messenger in the process of lipolysis, the process of releasing fatty acids from their glycerol backbone, making them available for burning, this will reduce the amount of fat released and consequently the amount of fat burned.
This all fits nicely into the picture that free form amino acids should not be frequently used on a diet. As with carbohydrates, quickly absorbed sources create higher peak levels that also decline faster. This almost always leads to a favourable situation for a lower metabolism.
When dieting you will opt for carbohydrate sources that absorb slower, so they have less of an effect on factors influencing food intake. The same holds true for protein. You should opt for protein sources with a more anti-catabolic character, that release slower, such as casein. "
Haber CA, Lam TK, Yu Z, Gupta N, Goh T, Bogdanovic E, Giacca A, Fantus IG. N-acetylcysteine and taurine prevent hyperglycemia-induced insulin resistance in vivo: possible role of oxidative stress. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Oct; 285(4): E744-53. Epub 2003 Jun 10.
Baskin SI, Klekotka SJ, Kendrick ZV, Bartuska DG. Correlation of platelet taurine levels with thyroid function. J Endocrinol Invest. 1979 Jul-Sep; 2(3): 245-9.
Hayakawa Y, Downer RG, Bodnaryk RP. Taurine inhibits octopamine-stimulated cAMP production.. Biochim Biophys Acta. 1987 Jun 15; 929(1): 117-20.
- 04-11-2005, 12:20 PM
All of that is nice and good, but put those temporary effects on one side of the scale and put relief from cramps during a workout on the other. Then take the taurine as necessary. You won't get (or remain) fat because of occassional taurine supplementation.
04-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Thanks for your response Strat, im not worried`about the fat gain, as you say its hardly worth worrying about. I more interested in finding out its method of action, why it works?Originally Posted by Strateg0s
04-11-2005, 01:05 PM
Taurine is an osmoregulator of cell-volume, or, in other words, a promoter of cellular hydration. Depletion of intracellular taurine concentrations generally causes the reverse: cell-dehydration.
By the way, I de-bunked the entirety of Big Cat's article on BB.com on two seperate occasions. His article is EXTREMELY flawed in a lot of its reasonings and conclusions, up to the point where he looks to be seriously misreading numerous studies while failing to take into account any data that does not fit his forced paradigm.
04-11-2005, 01:08 PM
Im sure that makes for an entertaining read, post the link if you have the time. And thanks for your response.Originally Posted by Loki
04-11-2005, 01:14 PM
04-11-2005, 01:32 PM
This is one of them. There's a second that I couldn't find when I searched real quick but I feel like all my posts together on this particular thread add up to a "pretty good response".Originally Posted by 200wannabe
04-11-2005, 01:50 PM
Excellent discussion, Loki.Originally Posted by Loki
Others have suggested that supplementing creatine while cutting can hamper fat loss, though I haven't seen it backed up (correctly or not). I'm taking some time off from creatine anyway, so I'm going to see how I respond on vs. off, but would you care to comment?
04-11-2005, 01:57 PM
It's like this:
Short-term, creatine increases cellular ATP, which means less AMPk activation in response to caloric depletion and exercise, which means slowed fat-loss.
Long-term (as in like, months), creatine keeps cellular ATP elevated and the cell-volumized in the presence of caloric depletion, and leptin expression and cellular metabolic rate are critically influenced by cellular ATP state and the volume of the cell. In other words, long-term, you're going to have less of a starvation response to dieting, less muscle loss, and faster cell-metabolism (which means an increased rate of continued fat loss).
"Life is full of compromises".
04-11-2005, 01:59 PM
With the above said, remember, if we learned anything from the tortoise (or Aesop):
"Slow and steady wins the race".
In this case I'm inclined to agree.
04-11-2005, 02:30 PM
Gotcha.Originally Posted by Loki
I'm a believer in sprinting (thanks in part to your excellent articles on the subject, and also to my own results), and I'm guessing that my sprinting routine more than makes up for whatever AMPk deactivation creatine is causing, so I'll probably cycle back onto creatine in a couple weeks as originally planned.
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