Leucine in-between meal may help to extend MPS

JudoJosh

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Leucine or carbohydrate supplementation reduces AMPK and eEF2 phosphorylation and extends postprandial muscle protein synthesis in rats

Abstract

Muscle protein synthesis (MPS) increases after consumption of a protein-containing meal but returns to baseline values within 3 h despite continued elevations of plasma amino acids and mammalian target of rapamycin (mTORC1) signaling. This study evaluated the potential for supplemental leucine (Leu), carbohydrates (CHO), or both to prolong elevated MPS after a meal. Male Sprague-Dawley rats (∼270 g) trained to consume three meals daily were food deprived for 12 h, and then blood and gastrocnemius muscle were collected 0, 90, or 180 min after a standard 4-g test meal (20% whey protein). At 135 min postmeal, rats were orally administered 2.63 g of CHO, 270 mg of Leu, both, or water (sham control). Following test meal consumption, MPS peaked at 90 min and then returned to basal (time 0) rates at 180 min, although ribosomal protein S6 kinase and eIF4E-binding protein-1 phosphorylation remained elevated. In contrast, rats administered Leu and/or CHO supplements at 135 min postmeal maintained peak MPS through 180 min. MPS was inversely associated with the phosphorylation states of translation elongation factor 2, the “cellular energy sensor” adenosine monophosphate-activated protein kinase-α (AMPKα) and its substrate acetyl-CoA carboxylase, and increases in the ratio of AMP/ATP. We conclude that the incongruity between MPS and mTORC1 at 180 min reflects a block in translation elongation due to reduced cellular energy. Administering Leu or CHO supplements ∼2 h after a meal maintains cellular energy status and extends the postprandial duration of MPS.
FT -> Leucine or carbohydrate supplementation reduces AMPK and eEF2 phosphorylation and extends postprandial muscle protein synthesis in rats | Endocrinology and Metabolism


What is the reason for the study?
Working from the consensus that after consuming a meal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) increases and then returns to baseline within 3 hours, researchers investigated whether consumption of carbohydrates (CHO), supplemental leucine (Leu) or both (LC) would result in prolonging the elevation of MPS post meal.

Who are the participants?
Thirty-four Male Sprague-Dawley rats

What was the study design?
Experimental placebo controlled study

What was done?
Rats were provided a baseline diet of 20/50/30 (P/C/F) for 7 days. Some rats were then euthanized following fasting for 12 hours. This is done to establish a reference food deprived value. The rest were were given a meal and then euthanized either 90 min or 180 min post meal. Based on previous research, the researchers hypothesized that MPS would peak at around 90 mins and then return to baseline at around 135 mins post meal. For this reason, some of the rats were euthanized at 90 min to establish a reference for peak MPS.

Experimental interventions
Since at around 135 mins is when the researchers expected MPS to drop back down, they gave rats either CHO, Leu, LC, or placebo (water) and then euthanized them at the 180min mark (post initial meal) to see what effect each had on MPS (if either was able to prolong it or not and if so to what magnitude)

F1.medium.gif


The 135min intervention amounts are listed above.

What was found?
MPS was increased in the rats that were euthanized at the 90 min mark.

At the 180min mark
  • Rats that were given placebo showed MPS levels similar to the ones euthanized at the 0min mark (the ones in a food deprived state)
  • Rats given either Leu, CHO or LC all showed increased MPS and to levels similar to the rats euthanized at 90 min mark, which was the MPS peak

This is seen in the graph below

F2.medium.gif


What is the proposed mechanism/reason for the findings?
Researchers believe that by supplementation with either CHO, Leu, or LC resulted in decreased AMPK activation thus prolonging MPS post meal.

Limitations of the study?
Was done in rats, not humans.

What does this mean?
Previously it had been believed that additional amino acids would not increase MPS further due to mRNA translation becoming refractory (unresponsive). However given the data gathered by the researchers here (specifically on mTORC1 and MPS) they believe that the drop in MPS post meal is not due to a refractory period but rather a result of increased AMPK activity and a decrease in translation elongation activity. (Data I did not include in the “What was found” section since I figured not many people would follow and it would have taken more time to provide background information on the relationship of all these factors in order to fully understand the role being played {which I myself don’t quite fully understand yet!} so I instead focused on just reporting the MPS findings. Just know MPS and AMPK are inversely related).

Takeaway?
The intake of a Leu or CHO 2 hours after consuming a meal may extend the duration of MPS.



Side note:
Insulin was also measured in this study. Plasma insulin was increased at 90 min postmeal and returned to food deprived values in rats given the water. In the rats that were given CHO or LC, insulin maintain elevated, whereas the insulin levels for rats who were give Leu did not differ from the ones given water.

F5.medium.gif


The researchers noted that while insulin did not appear to be a critical factor in extending MPS, they think their timing for when they checked insulin might have missed the peak and concluded that, “the influence of insulin signaling on the duration of MPS remains unresolved.”
 
SwolenONE

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Very cool, adheres to Layne's dosing protocol.
 
Jackedjack

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Interesting, always helpful josh!
 

Nyrin

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Isn't that a really big HED dose of leucine?

I'm not up-to-snuff on the calculations involved, but 1000 mg/kg in a rat (270mg for a 270g rat) should be, what, around 167mg/kg HED? That'd be like ~13g of leucine for me at a mere 170lbs. Not that we have data on lower doses to compare, of course.

Still very interesting support for the potential usefulness of free-form leucine even outside of long-term fasting.

Also, this study reminds me of how funny the use of the word "euthanize" can be in animal studies :D
 
abformulations

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Interesting.

I've been playing with it and have been taking 2g-3g pre workout fasted and it works good.

I also take 1-2g with a carb meal as well.
 
JudoJosh

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Isn't that a really big HED dose of leucine?

I'm not up-to-snuff on the calculations involved, but 1000 mg/kg in a rat (270mg for a 270g rat) should be, what, around 167mg/kg HED? That'd be like ~13g of leucine for me at a mere 170lbs. Not that we have data on lower doses to compare, of course.

Still very interesting support for the potential usefulness of free-form leucine even outside of long-term fasting.

Also, this study reminds me of how funny the use of the word "euthanize" can be in animal studies :D
I have a post here somewhere delving into HED calculations a bit, but I can try and walk through the calculations for this real

*WARNING* - I suck at math! So feel free to chime in and point out any errors

We are given the total dose of leucine given to the rats - 270mg - and are given the weight of the rats - 270g

First I need to turn that total dose into a mg/kg amount.
So first we need to convert the weight to kg, so the converted weight of the rat is 0.27kg.

Now I need to get a mg per kg amount. This is, as you said - 1000mg/kg

Next we need to take into account body surface area of the human and the rat. For this I am going to use some general weights and surface areas.

So the HED formula for this would be -> 1000mg/kg × 3 / 37 = 81mg/kg

Now for us in the good ol' USA that would work out to 0.036g per lb

So for you, at 170lbs, that would be around 6g.


Now for this study, it appears the goal of the leucine supplementation is more about AMPK. Their take on refractory period I find interesting
 
JudoJosh

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Edit: I think I may have miscalculated. I am thinking your number is probably more accurate.

I guess the next question is, how much leucine do we need to decrease AMPK enough. Would 5g be sufficient? I wonder of there is any literature on varying leucine amounts and AMPK
 

Nyrin

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Edit: I think I may have miscalculated. I am thinking your number is probably more accurate.

I guess the next question is, how much leucine do we need to decrease AMPK enough. Would 5g be sufficient? I wonder of there is any literature on varying leucine amounts and AMPK
I fully suspect that you're correct and that the dose here was likely intentionally chosen as overkill -- it's entirely plausible that nearly identical numbers would have been seen at 500 mg/kg or even 250 mg/kg in the rats, which would be more like 7g or 3g in humans, which is entirely reasonable with most good amino supplements. "1000 mg/kg" just likely seemed a nice, round target for research that was more interested in the comparison between leucine and (huge!) carbohydrate use in the window in question.
 
heavylifter33

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As a rat, i'm highly interested in this study.
 
JudoJosh

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As a rat, i'm highly interested in this study.
from my experience, those who quickly dismiss a study by saying things like "its a rat study" are typically those who don't fully understand research.

While I appreciate the skepticism, using the murine model does not make a study worthless. It still provides us with data from which we can work with to further hypothesize
 
heybeavis1

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A thinking monkey posting stuff here on AM, intriguing... LOL
JK JudoJosh, keep the good work and research coming ! I always like to read your stuff
 
JudoJosh

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Very different reasons. This paper is investigating AMPKs effect on MPS whereas at that time Norton appeared to be more focused on insulin and mTOR. Although, it would appear he was on the right path and asking the right questions. I would suspect Norton knows of this paper, since it is a few years old and this is in his wheelhouse, and has since expanded upon his original hypothesis

What this paper did is expand on it. The paper proposes that "the incongruity between MPS and mTORC1 signaling at 180 min after the meal does not reflect a refractory period or decreased sensitivity to anabolic stimuli but rather an increase in AMPK activity and a decrease in translation elongation activity." Suggesting AMPK and eEF2 phosphorylation plays a significant role in prolonging MPS
 
The Solution

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Very different reasons. This paper is investigating AMPKs effect on MPS whereas at that time Norton appeared to be more focused on insulin and mTOR. Although, it would appear he was on the right path and asking the right answers. I would suspect Norton knows of this paper, since it is a few years old and this is in his wheelhouse, and has since expanded upon his original hypothesis

What this paper did is expand on it. The paper proposes that "the incongruity between MPS and mTORC1 signaling at 180 min after the meal does not reflect a refractory period or decreased sensitivity to anabolic stimuli but rather an increase in AMPK activity and a decrease in translation elongation activity." Suggesting AMPK and eEF2 phosphorylation plays a significant role in prolonging MPS
Indeed. I bet if you were to email him and show hiim this and his stance and see what he would have to say about it
[email protected]
 
heavylifter33

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from my experience, those who quickly dismiss a study by saying things like "its a rat study" are typically those who don't fully understand research.

While I appreciate the skepticism, using the murine model does not make a study worthless. It still provides us with data from which we can work with to further hypothesize
I don't dismiss rat studies, that would be stupid. I am however skeptical of purported "amazing" benefits of leucine supplementation. While i agree leucine can be worthwhile to use as a supplement, i am not sold by some of the "studies" i've seen.
 
JudoJosh

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Please point out where in my post did I claim any "amazing" benefits so that I can re-word it.

I make it a point to refrain from making claims in threads like these. What I do is present the data from the paper and try and offer some practical takeaway thoughts/suggestions. Here I said leucine may prolong MPS. Is that really coming across as me over hyping it?
 
JudoJosh

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Would Hica be better if used in place of Leucine?
I am inclined to think, no but am not too sure. We would have to look and see what effects HICA has on AMPK and translation elongation and to my knowledge, this is unknown at this point. But what we do know is another metabolite of leucine, HMB, has no effect on AMPK - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21345206 - so based off this I am inclined to think HICA would also fail to have an effect.
 
JudoJosh

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HICA serves a different purpose the. The one being discussed here. We supplement with HICA primarily as a means to retain muscle mass during caloric deficits. Here we are wondering if we can prolong post meal MPS. The data presented here suggest it is possible and the mechanism is via decreased AMPK and increased translation elongation. So if we want to consider other supplementary inverventions, we would have to see what those alternatives have and the above 2 actions
 
heavylifter33

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Please point out where in my post did I claim any "amazing" benefits so that I can re-word it.

I make it a point to refrain from making claims in threads like these. What I do is present the data from the paper and try and offer some practical takeaway thoughts/suggestions. Here I said leucine may prolong MPS. Is that really coming across as me over hyping it?
If i felt you specifically were over-hyping leucine, i would have had no problem quoting and bolding it. Like i do for anyone else i attack. My posts here are not meant as an attack, just simple skepticism.
 
Jiigzz

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from my experience, those who quickly dismiss a study by saying things like "its a rat study" are typically those who don't fully understand research.

While I appreciate the skepticism, using the murine model does not make a study worthless. It still provides us with data from which we can work with to further hypothesize
Be interesting to see how it translates to humans. Always something to look into :D

Edit: I think the real determinant is whether increased mTor signalling would translate into anything much if continually elevated.
 

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Could you explain what beneficial difference time release would make in this context?
A time released 3g dose of leucine 3 hours after consumption? If you consume it with a meal or post workout then you'd have a 3g dose of leucine 3 hours later
 

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A time released 3g dose of leucine 3 hours after consumption? If you consume it with a meal or post workout then you'd have a 3g dose of leucine 3 hours later
At the risk of sounding facetious, why not just have normal leucine 3hrs later?
 

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At the risk of sounding facetious, why not just have normal leucine 3hrs later?
you certainly could. the time released will keep leucine levels elevated for around 8 hours, normal leucine will not

activeTR in black, normal L-Leucine in yellow
activetr-leucine.jpg
 
braskibra

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HICA serves a different purpose the. The one being discussed here. We supplement with HICA primarily as a means to retain muscle mass during caloric deficits. Here we are wondering if we can prolong post meal MPS. The data presented here suggest it is possible and the mechanism is via decreased AMPK and increased translation elongation. So if we want to consider other supplementary inverventions, we would have to see what those alternatives have and the above 2 actions
not to try and get too off topic, but does anyone know what the difference is between HMB and HICA aside from different metabolites?
 
JudoJosh

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If i felt you specifically were over-hyping leucine, i would have had no problem quoting and bolding it. Like i do for anyone else i attack. My posts here are not meant as an attack, just simple skepticism.
Understood and as always, skepticism is appreciated :)
 
JudoJosh

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Be interesting to see how it translates to humans. Always something to look into :D

Edit: I think the real determinant is whether increased mTor signalling would translate into anything much if continually elevated.
When you get a chance, give the FT a read. mTOR levels aren't really the focus and not the goal of supplementing with leucine in this context. MPS after 2 hours returns to baseline despite mTOR being elevated. The goal is to prolong MPS elevation and increasing mTOR wouldn't really have an impact here because mTOR is already increased and MPS is falling.

So the question is, what practical effects would increased MPS have over time. Would it effect hypertrophy? Who knows, but this paper isn't really too concerned with that outcome. Instead it is looking for mechanism for why MPS drops (exploring the concept of refractory period post meal consumption). That is a good question though and hopefully we will see some research exploring that question.

Side note: If I go to Rutgers for graduate school, this could possibly be a thesis topic. Rutgers has a leucine researcher on staff and she might entertain a proposal to set up a study giving leucine to individuals in-between meals.
 
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not to try and get too off topic, but does anyone know what the difference is between HMB and HICA aside from different metabolites?
This is has confused me a tad too
Mayne I will delve into this for a future post. As of right now, I can not provide a complete answer that I would be comfortable saying. I would want to look into each a bit more before making any statements comparing the two.

If you want an answer now though, perhaps mr.cooper69 or nattydisaster can provide some immediate feedback since I believe both are well versed (at least more then me) in each of these compounds
 
Jiigzz

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When you get a chance, give the FT a read. mTOR levels aren't really the focus and not the goal of supplementing with leucine in this context. MPS after 2 hours returns to baseline despite mTOR being elevated. The goal is to prolong MPS elevation and increasing mTOR wouldn't really have an impact here because mTOR is already increased and MPS is falling.

So the question is, what practical effects would increased MPS have over time. Would it effect hypertrophy? Who knows, but this paper isn't really too concerned with that outcome. Instead it is looking for mechanism for why MPS drops (exploring the concept of refractory period post meal consumption). That is a good question though and hopefully we will see some research exploring that question.

Side note: If I go to Rutgers for graduate school, this could possibly be a thesis topic. Rutgers has a leucine researcher on staff and she might entertain a proposal to set up a study giving leucine to individuals in-between meals.
I will give it a look, its an interesting concept for sure.

Perhaps a good read that is relevant for you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23459753
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278544/
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/10/3225S.full
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/5/1080?ijkey=1988fe2a0f50118eaebac6d5a521f3872ad3d5f9&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
 
heybeavis1

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Judo, do you think using Leucine in this context would counteract the effects of metformin ? (which increases AMPK)
 
Jiigzz

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Judo, do you think using Leucine in this context would counteract the effects of metformin ? (which increases AMPK)
Read here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ampk-master-metabolic-regulator.html/

It has a section on metformin.

Edit: ooohh my bad. I happened to just be reading that but it doesn't go into mTOR and metformin.

I'd add that metformin is a strong mediator of AMPK and so it would negate the effects of leucine on mTOR.

Edit 2: Found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310004/
 
heybeavis1

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Read here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ampk-master-metabolic-regulator.html/

It has a section on metformin.

Edit: ooohh my bad. I happened to just be reading that but it doesn't go into mTOR and metformin.

I'd add that metformin is a strong mediator of AMPK and so it would negate the effects of leucine on mTOR.

Edit 2: Found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310004/
Interesting ! Correct if I´m wrong, but they´re comparing 2g metformin a day against 2g of leucine. What if I use like 150mg of metformin and 6-7g of leucine ? Would metformin mediate the same over Leucine regarding mTor ?
 
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Interesting ! Correct if I´m wrong, but they´re comparing 2g metformin a day against 2g of leucine. What if I use like 150mg of metformin and 6-7g of leucine ? Would metformin mediate the same over Leucine regarding mTor ?
What section did you get the dosages from? Can't seem to see it. In any case, I have no real idea of at what dose the effects would be mediated.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/298/4/E815.short

In any case, if you are given metformin to reduce chance of developing diabetes, then perhaps try not to mess with it through leucine supplementation
 
JudoJosh

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Judo, do you think using Leucine in this context would counteract the effects of metformin ? (which increases AMPK)
I make it a point to not and comment regarding interactions with medications. My response in regards to this would be the standard response of, consult your physician.
 
JudoJosh

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Read here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ampk-master-metabolic-regulator.html/

It has a section on metformin.

Edit: ooohh my bad. I happened to just be reading that but it doesn't go into mTOR and metformin.
Preface: i did not read the entrie thing, I just quickly skimmed it looking for the word metformin

It looks like Lyle is speculating that Duchaines oberservation of metformin administration resulting in muscle loss is a result of its effect on AMPK.

He does also wonder of leucine would increase mTOR to the point of overtiding AMPK so that MPS can happen. Based off the paper in the first post this appears to be partially true. Leucine is able to effect MPS but not by increasing mTOR but by decreasing AMPK.

It is all very interesting to me. I am not the best in understanding signaling all that well so am unsure if my inturpeition of the paper is accurate. I just might foward the paper to that researcher at Rutgers or Norton and see if my thoughts on it line up with the data provided in the paper.
 
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Preface: i did not read the entrie thing, I just quickly skimmed it looking for the word metformin

It looks like Lyle is speculating that Duchaines oberservation of metformin administration resulting in muscle loss is a result of its effect on AMPK.

He does also wonder of leucine would increase mTOR to the point of overtiding AMPK so that MPS can happen. Based off the paper in the first post this appears to be partially true. Leucine is able to effect MPS but not by increasing mTOR but by decreasing AMPK.

It is all very interesting to me. I am not the best in understanding signaling all that well so am unsure if my inturpeition of the paper is accurate. I just might foward the paper to that researcher at Rutgers or Norton and see if my thoughts on it line up with the data provided in the paper.
Interesting. Cellular signalling is lost on me. Halve of the papers on mTOR go well over my head lol
 
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Interesting. Cellular signalling is lost on me. Halve of the papers on mTOR go well over my head lol
Likewise.

I once wrote something on the cellular signalling post forskolin administration and I sent it to coop to review and his response was pretty much, it is all wrong. LOL. Although I am learning and getting a grasp on some things. I will be looking into the physiology of hypertrophy soon and will hopefully come out with a better understanding of these things.
 

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The time released leucine in this is gonna be a game changer.

And good job on the write up Judo, always a good read.
Yo bro,

The purpose of leucine and BCAAs is to rapidly enter the plasma and spike leucine levels. I'm seeing this trend of "time released leucine" lately, but that actually completely nullifies what leucine does. Rather than behaving as an mTOR stimulator and elevating MPS, it will simply serve as any other amino acid, which means it is still used as the building blocks of protein, but it won't have any of the unique benefits of leucine.
 
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Likewise.

I once wrote something on the cellular signalling post forskolin administration and I sent it to coop to review and his response was pretty much, it is all wrong. LOL. Although I am learning and getting a grasp on some things. I will be looking into the physiology of hypertrophy soon and will hopefully come out with a better understanding of these things.
It is another language lol.

I dont even try anymore lol. I just learn the basics and leave the complex stuff to the biochem guys
 

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