methoxyisoflavone post cycle

raybravo

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supposed to be a very good anti catabolic(reduces cortisol levels drastically) , increases protein synthesis and nitrogen retention at doses of 800 -1200 mg , without affecting htpa , anyone used it post cycle over here ? sounds like a good thing to avoid a crash doesnt it ???
 

raybravo

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take this thread to bbing.com ?? well , lol , what did i do to u bro for u to be hostile against me ???
 

raybravo

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and if u speak for this forum and are asking me to get the hell out and not come back here again just becos i post at bbing.com , then fine bro , thats the way it shall be . dont want to be at a place where i am not welcome .
 
pogue

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don't leave ray, you're cool :D

methoxy is junk, but you hang out in the steroids forum to learn about the true **** and don't hear too much about the bullshit in the supplements section

anywho, methoxy and ecdy is junk
 

raybravo

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i dont care about what goes on in the supplement section man , honestly , i'm a bit taken aback by the cold response by dez/null , i dont even know him and i dont recall being mean to him in anyway . and i read this on l rea's new book , and hence my question . and i dont really use a lot of supps , and i dont really have shame in asking about something i dont know .
 
pogue

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well, i can't speak for dez, but i know you don't hang around in the supps forum much which is why i said something

methoxy is something commonly asked about by newbs because its so hyped up by all the supplement companies, but in real life doesn't pan out...

all i can say is i hope you stick around, your advice and knowledge is always welcomed
 
Dwight Schrute

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i dont care about what goes on in the supplement section man , honestly , i'm a bit taken aback by the cold response by dez/null , i dont even know him and i dont recall being mean to him in anyway . and i read this on l rea's new book , and hence my question . and i dont really use a lot of supps , and i dont really have shame in asking about something i dont know .
No, dez's statement does not reflect this board in any way. Ray your a valuable asset to this board and I would appreciate it if you forgot what he said and continued to post here. I personally value your judgement in the steroid forums greatly.


Methoxy has been hyped by a lot fo supp companies but the majority of opinion conclude its just junk. Doesn't really do anything warranting you to spend your money on it.
 

Matthew D

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Hey dez if the man truly didn't know and need to ask..then it isn't a dumb question. But thanks for making Ray feel like he could post questions here to be answered :rolleyes:
 
Chemo

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Originally posted by raybravo
supposed to be a very good anti catabolic(reduces cortisol levels drastically) , increases protein synthesis and nitrogen retention at doses of 800 -1200 mg , without affecting htpa , anyone used it post cycle over here ? sounds like a good thing to avoid a crash doesnt it ???
I don't know if it's potent enough to stop a crash but certainly worth looking into for the anti muscle wasting effects.

Originally posted by dez/null
its all hype. bs bullshit...take this thread to bb.com thx
By which study did you base that reply on?  Share it here so that all may parse...

Originally posted by pogue
don't leave ray, you're cool :D

methoxy is junk, but you hang out in the steroids forum to learn about the true **** and don't hear too much about the bullshit in the supplements section

anywho, methoxy and ecdy is junk
Stop kissing Ray's ass ;)

This brings me to my real point...RESEARCH.  What Ray has brought to the table is an abstract concept.  Not with the norm but an idea that is backed up by a reasonable amount of research.  Why not consider it?  Because it has been shot down by some other forum?  Because you base your entire OPINION on someone else's interpretation of the article?  I've never been one to say "Use the search button" but I will say time and time again to "Use the search bar".  There is a search bar down at the bottom of the page with convenient links to both PubMed and the USPO.  SEARCH FOR SOME DAMN ARTICLES! 

Don't just say something sucks with nothing to back it up.  Cite an article that backs up your assessment.

As I posted in an executive forum on a well respected board:

Originally posted by Chemo on another forum
As was said earlier, this is not a game of most membership among any forum. I agree that this is a collaborative effort to maintain the quality of the underground. Let's put our heads together in here to combine efforts and present a unified front. NO MORE will we stand for arguments based on quotes from other people. NO MORE will we stand for opinions based on nothing more than heresay. Let's put an active effort into stopping that trend. NO MORE will we stand for not using the damn search bar. And...NO MORE will we stand for personal attack threads when we provide a means of supporting the argument with published articles.


I think my quote, said to MODS and ADMINS gathered from all corners of the globe that represent the underground, says it more clearly than anything that can be conveyed here.  Do not turn a question aside from merely opinions that you have read elsewhere...cite your stance with articles.

It is a new standard that must be met but feel the mature membership that we enjoy here is capable of rising to the challenge.  From here on let any member that responds out of his ass be forced to do some REAL research...

Raybravo, Dez/null, and Pogue --> I invite you to the first official Anabolicminds show me your article contest.  The method by which to grab your articles is provided you by the search bar at the footer of the page.  The rules are simple...who ever convinces us that their opinion is correct wins.  Of course, they will have to be backed up by articles ;)

Let this be the dawn of a new day for knowledge...

Chemo
 

raybravo

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well , actually chemo, i read l rea's chemical muscle enhancement book where he mentions this product to be used maybe as an anti catabolic without impairing the htpa , which did sound interesting to me , and i hit methoxyisoflavone on google and all this good **** comes up lol , and i posted it asking opinions , so i am guilty of not doing my research i guess , i shud keep myself updated about the supplement scene better i guess , but felt a lil bad about dez's reply , he cudve just pointed me in the right direction instead of his crude reply .
 
pogue

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Aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibition by flavonoids.

Le Bail JC, Laroche T, Marre-Fournier F, Habrioux G.

UPRES EA 1085, Biomolecules et cibles cellulaires tumorales - Proliferation cellulaire et inhibition enzymatique, Laboratoire de Biochimie, Faculte de Pharmacie, Limoges, France.

A method for estimating in the same assay both aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activities in human placental microsomes using radiolabelled [1,2,6,7-3H]4-androstene-3,17-dione was proposed. In this assay, estrone (E1) and estradiol (E2) produced were separated by HPLC and estimated using a radioactive flow detector. Using this method, the inhibitory effect of various flavonoids, including flavone, flavanone and isoflavone, on the human placental aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase was studied. Flavonoids were shown to be potent inhibitors of both aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activities. We found that 7-hydroxyflavone and apigenin are the most effective aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibitors, respectively. Experiments showed that a hydroxyl group in position 7 was essential for anti-17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity. However, flavonoids with 7-methoxy or 8-hydroxyl groups on the A ring showed only anti-aromatase activity. Structure-activity relationships were discussed.
No dosage levels given, no length of time given. I would call this a poor indicator of its estrogen prevention abilities. Further, I believe you do not want 17beta-hydroxysteroid inhibition.

3'-prenyl-4'-methoxy-isoflavone-7-O-beta-D-(2''-O-p-coumaroyl) glucopyranoside, a novel phytoestrogen from Sopubia delphinifolia.

Saxena VK, Bhadoria BK.

Department of Chemistry, Dr. H.S. Gour University, Sagar, Madhya Pradesh, India.

A novel phytoestrogen compound, 3'-prenyl-4'-methoxy-isoflavone-7-O- beta-D-(2''-O-p-coumaroyl)glucopyranoside, has been isolated from the EtOAc-soluble fraction of the stems of Sopubia delphinifolia and has been identified by chemical and spectral analysis. Pharmacological examination of the compound showed it to have estrogenic activity.
Is this the same isoflavone used in most supplements? Not sure.

Finally, I base my opinion of methoxy on personal experience. I bought both Biotest Methoxy-7 and EAS Methoxy HP. I used the recommended dosage on both and saw NO effects as advertised.

Finally, the image below should be a final indicator of its value.

Nuff said.
 

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Dwight Schrute

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I have my evidence, but I want to see someone post it first as I was not included in this game...... :(

Hint: Most of the studies concern osteoperosis and hormonal replacement therapy in women :D

But your on the right track Pogue....It certainly is a reach.


Oh yeah...most of the early studies were done in Russian, Japanese and Hungarian on animals.
 

dez/null

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thanks good reply. i was fighting with chemo and lg in the chatroom over this.
 

YellowJacket

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From Big Cat

Methoxy

I know I'm going to get a lot of hot water for badmouthing this one. But fact remains this is the shadiest stuff on the market. The most recent tests I found were dated 1981, and all of them conducted under suspect circumstances in the country of origin, Hungary. All of the information on Methoxy isoflavone and Ipriflavone , the two most common forms of methoxy, is based on US patent information dating back to 1977. Even with the patent locked up, there should have been evidence of use in the sports world throughout the past 24 years. After all, they claim this stuff is better than steroids. I've heard some pretty bold remarks by companies claiming their supplements are almost as good as steroids and not be able to uphold it, but this is ludicrous. I don't think anyone could really fall for something better than steroids but with no side-effects. What really worries me is that I haven't heard even a single testimonial from someone who gained a pound of lean mass that couldn't be accredited to something else. I mean, even with the worst supplements you always hear someone that experiences some minor gains, but not a one with methoxy. The body protects itself against exogenous substances, which is why steroids are so popular, because they trick the body into thinking they're endogenous substances. But with flavonoids, they would be broken down before exerting these effects. If any of these test-results are for real, I guarantee you the stuff was injected.

And is it common in this industry to go by test material supplied by the manufacturing company (Chinoin), tests done in-house and with a world of flaws in them ? In the medical community people laugh at practices like these, but praying on the believing nature of intermediate bodybuilders they just smell money. When Twinlabs or Universal comes out with a methoxy supplement, I may just decide to give methoxy the benefit of doubt, but as long as the major, quality companies shy away from it, It remains hard to accept the supplement as a steady factor. Which is why it is so hard to find quality Nor-diol as well...

(Update! Universal has two new Methoxy products: Natural Sterol Extreme and IsoStak. Twinlab does not yet have a Methoxy product.)

A recent attempt has been undertaken to do tests to prove methoxy worked. They showed it did. Why does this not surprise me you ask? Well, looking at the study you'll notice that the study contains a few flaws both in the way testing was performed (the gains were not shown to be conclusive, nor shown to be accredited to the product) and the test-subjects. Last time I tried to explain this to someone I was said to be prejudiced. But if you look at the top of the study you'll also notice that the study was sponsored (and we're not talking peanuts so I think some of that money may compromise the integrity of the researcher) by one of the companies that manufactures methoxy and has a great stake in that market. I'm not going to name the company, but if you go back through some of the message boards of the past few weeks and months you can find it.

As far as I'm concerned, buying methoxy is wasted money. I wrote to some people in the industry who have their ears to the grapevine where new supplements are concerned. All of them agreed that there is no basis for the power of methoxy, and I believe Will Brink gave me the best answer "There is no proof this stuff works, and for me that's all I need to know."
 

YellowJacket

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Another....

Howz it Work?:
Ipriflavone/Methoxyflavone

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by Bryan Haycock MSc., CSCS


First came Ipriflavone, sold as an anabolic isoflavone. It was preceded by hype and mystery, both tantalizing and frustrating to anybody "in the know" and not on drugs. A lot of people bought it, including me. A lot of people stopped buying it a short time after. A short time after they didn’t notice any new muscle growth, that is. Then came 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone, a slightly tweaked version of Ipriflavone. It was also preceded by a lot of hype and mystery. As you might expect, a lot of people bought it (not me). It appears people are still buying it.

I have always been one to do my homework on any new supplement I was interested in trying. Not that I’m more savvy than other people, it’s just that I’ve always had a fairly limited supplement budget and couldn’t afford to waste my money. When doing your homework on supplements, you have to ask yourself a couple of questions. First, what is being claimed about a particular supplement? Second, do the claims make sense given the mechanism of action? In trying to answer these two questions you will be lead to the right information to help you make savvy supplement purchases.

So what about Ipriflavone and/or 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone? What are the claims? What is the mechanism of action?

The claims made by those selling the stuff are as follows:

"… the ultimate, "perfect" anabolic agent. You may be saying to yourself, "I've heard this story before." Well, you may have, but this time the story has a different ending — it's true!"

"It [5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone] was originally designed to increase lean mass on animals and humans, without the negatives associated with steroids."

"…potent anabolic…"

"it's [5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone] not only anabolic, it's healthy!"

"it [5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone] significantly increases calcium, phosphorous, potassium, and nitrogen retention, which clearly shows its anabolic horsepower."

"so powerful it’s guaranteed to help you pack on up to 10 pounds of rock-hard mass in just 30 days!"

"it [5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone] works."

"…5-methyl-7-methoxy isoflavone (methoxivone), the strongest Nutrient partitioning isoflavone. Potent for gaining muscle, losing fat, and increasing vitality, well-being and endurance. Also useful in suppor[t]ing strong, healthy bones, and maintaining low cholesterol levels"

I could go on and on, but I’ll spare you. The point I’m trying to make is that the people making and selling this stuff are telling us it is the "perfect anabolic." That’s a pretty hefty claim!

Our second step in determining the value of ipriflavone/methoxyflavone is to figure out the mechanism of action. The mechanism of action refers to what and how it changes the chemistry of the body. Let’s review the relevant research. Keep in mind that ipriflavone and 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone (methoxyflavone) are assumed to have the same mechanism of action, so I will use Ipriflavone and methoxyflavone interchangeably.

Ipriflavone inhibits bone resorption:

Most people familiar with Ipriflavone know that it has been extensively studied with respect to bone metabolism, or more specifically, osteoporosis. For instance, one representative animal study found ipriflavone inhibited parathyroid hormone-, vitamin D-, PGE2-, and interleukin 1ß-stimulated bone resorption (1). The effects of Ipriflavone on bone loss have also been demonstrated in humans. The same protocol was used throughout most of these studies (i.e. 200 mg ipriflavone or placebo three times daily). Several two-year studies looked at women immediately postmenopause (age 50-65) and found bone mass was maintained or improved slightly in the ipriflavone groups while those in the placebo groups experienced significant bone loss (2,3,4,5).

This research on bone metabolism doesn’t really back up "the perfect anabolic" claims made by the supplement companies. There still may be hope however, as other research has been done looking at slightly different physiological effects.

Ipriflavone acts as an estrogen "sensitizer" in several tissues:

Before you shriek at the thought of enhancing estrogen’s effects, read on to see exactly how this happens. While Ipriflavone does not have any significant direct estrogenic effects, it does enhance the effects of estrogen, particularly in bone, the thyroid gland, and the gastrointestinal tract (6,7). In bone, ipriflavone makes estrogen’s bone sparing effect more potent. Ipriflavone, like the soy flavone genistein, has decent affinity for the estrogen receptor-beta (8).

OK, so this still doesn’t exactly sound like the "perfect anabolic." Ipriflavone and methoxy do have other effects.

Ipriflavone’s effects on Ca2+:

In the heart, ipriflavone has been shown to prevent Ca2+ ions from building up in the mitochondria (9). Ca2+ builds up in mitochondria when there is insufficient oxygen. Ipriflavone actually enables heart muscle tissue to survive longer without oxygen. This means less damage due to hypoxia (lack of oxygen). No studies have been performed looking at skeletal muscle function during ipriflavone supplementation however, it is not unreasonable to assume a similar function in skeletal muscle. More research is needed in this area.

OK, I will let you in on a little secret. All of the claims about the "anabolic" properties of ipriflavone and methoxyflavone are based on the claims made in their respective patents. Here is an excerpt from one of the patents on Ipriflavone United States patent number 3,949,085.

"Test of anabolic effect: The investigation was carried out with castrated rats by means of the musculus levator ani test and vesicula seminalis test. The preparations were administered orally for a period of three weeks. The tests were performed by the method of Eisenberg and Gordan (Eisenberg, E., Gordan, G. S. J.: J. Pharmacol. 99, 38, 1950). In addition to that, also the weight of the prepared diaphragm of the animals was established. According to these tests, the weight of musculus levator ani rose by a Student significance of p 0.01, the weight of vesicula seminalis did not increase while the weight of the prepared diaphragm of the animals increased by a Student significance of p 0.05. On the basis of these results the preparations proved to possess the anabolic activity free from androgen effect."

The patent goes on to relate…

"The weight yield increasing effect induced by doses of 2 g/100 kg of feed was in the various animal species as follows:

8 to 15% in calves

7 to 10% in cattle

7 to 10% in hogs

8 to 20% in poultry

10 to 20% in rabbits

8 to 12% in guinea pigs"

The amount of feed given to these animals did not increase, only their body weights increased. They did test their new compound on ill humans as well:

"The anabolic effect of the composition was tested on thinned (asthenic), reconvalescent, dystrophic patients suffering from pathological thinness. It has been found that as a result of a treatment lasting for some weeks the patients have gained 2-3 kg of weight. According to our experiments the physical condition of the patients has also improved."

In the patent on 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone (U.S. patent 4,163,746), the details on increasing ipriflavone’s effectiveness are outlined. Several compounds are mentioned, namely 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone; 5-methyl-7-ethoxy-isoflavone; 5-methyl-7-(2-hydroxy-ethoxy)-isoflavone; and 5-methyl-7-isopropoxy-isoflavone. The same guys filed the 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone patent some 3 years after they filed the ipriflavone patent. Basically, all this patent does is show that when you methylate the isoflavone, you make it nearly twice as anabolic compared to ipriflavone. The claims are the same except that I noticed the claim that the "compounds are useful as anorexigenic agents. A significant advantage of these compounds over known catabolic agents is that they do not exhibit a central stimulating effect." Now this is quite a claim to add to the fact that they profess that it is an anabolic, as well. So not only does it cause a shift towards more muscle, it also decreases appetite at the same time. Thus far, no manufacturers that I have seen make the claim that ipriflavone or 5-mthyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone is a good appetite suppressants. But if they wanted to I guess they could, based on this patent.

One note about patents; just because an individual or company gets a patent, does not mean that their claims are accurate about their invention. It only means that whoever was assigned their file at the US patent and trademark office approved their file for a patent. It would certainly be nice to see someone do a little research on these flavones to see if in fact there are measurable anabolic effects when given to humans at reasonable doses.

Still, I do feel that ipriflavone/methoxyflavone is a valuable supplement to anybody who trains regularly. It "should" help to strengthen bones and tendons and even enhance cellular metabolism. If the patents are true, it may even increase muscle mass and decrease fat mass if used long enough. Keep in mind that we only answered the first question completely. There is still NO good explanation of how ipriflavone or its methylated derivatives could produce non-hormonal, or hormonal for that matter, anabolic effects.
 
Dwight Schrute

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But you forgot this one! :D Now before you all go yell at me for posting an AST article (Benz) its just more fodder to chew on ;)

Methoxyisoflavone: The Truth

by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
AST Director of Research


reatine was probably the best and worst thing to happen to the sports supplement industry.
Several hundred studies now validate creatine's remarkable muscle building, performance enhancing abilities in a variety of sports. Extensive research shows creatine to be safe, side effect-free and, best of all, economical to use. To some extent, the Holy Grail had been found. Creatine single handedly bolstered the credibility of an industry filled with unscrupulous companies.

Now creatine's success has caused a gold-rush among sports supplement companies. They are all eager to cash in on the restored faith of the consumer and discover the next creatine. Creatine was the perfect example of how science and the supplement industry could work together. And while I suspect there will never be another creatine, this has not stopped many supplement companies desperately attempting to find something better. One of the recent, and perhaps most fraudulent, examples is methoxyisoflavone (5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone). This isoflavone has been marketed as a "powerful anabolic", a "scientifically-proven lean mass stimulator" and an "alternative to anabolic steroids".

What are isoflavones?

Isoflavones are compounds found in soy beans or soy-containing foods.[1] They are naturally occurring, non-steroidal phytoestrogens that bind to estrogen receptors and possess weak estrogenic properties.[2] Some of the research that is sited in the marketing of "anabolic" isoflavones shows that compounds such as ipriflavone may hold promise in the treatment of osteoporosis, and soy isoflavone extracts to treat estrogen-deficient conditions, but this research has nothing to do with building muscle.[2-4]

So, exactly what is the scientific literature behind methoxyisoflavone, ipriflavone and the other "highly anabolic" isoflavones? None. I have performed numerous literature scans on these compounds and can find absolutely nothing to do with building muscle, in fish, birds, chickens or any other animal.

What's in a patent?

According to many of the companies that market methoxyisoflavone, this "mysterious" compound remained "buried" in the US Patent Office until 1997 when the rights expired. Some researchers in Hungary filed patents on these compounds over 30-years ago.[5,6] They believed these isoflavone compounds possessed non-estrogenic properties. The patents contain some descriptions of animal research and recommendations of how these compounds may be of use to humans. However, that is about it. That is all the evidence there is to support the amazing anabolic properties of methoxyisoflavone and its related compounds!

Some supplement marketers will attempt to impress you in their advertising with the sighting of patent numbers claiming that the US Patent Office would not award a patent to something that was not effective. This is simply not true. Patent officials do not judge the validity of the information presented to support the patent. A patent is not, in any way, a certification of the effectiveness of a product. A patent is not a verification of the science behind a product. A patent is merely a copyright, concerned only with the novelty of product.

Latest Research?

To successfully complete controlled research involving human subjects consuming sports supplements is a formidable undertaking and the costs are substantial. Funding this type of research at an independent academic facility is something that most supplement companies are not interested in. So when the first ever study involving humans supplementing with methoxyisoflavone was presented at the 2001 American College of Sports Medicine annual conference, [7] I was very interested.

The study examined 14-college men supplementing with methoxyisoflavone during resistance training. However, the research was poorly controlled and yielded insignificant results. The training program and dietary intake were not carefully monitored and the control group showed an increase in body fat, which suggests that many of the subjects did not comply with the procedures required of them during the eight-week period. Disappointingly, no conclusions can be drawn from this kind of research.

There is a lot of hype surrounding methoxy supplements, but there is one thing missing - the science. At this point I would have to say there is absolutely no research at all showing methoxy isoflavone helps build muscle. My personal suspicion is that as an anabolic agent, this supplement's value is non-existent.

You have to understand this industry to understand why products like methoxy isoflavone ever make it to the market. You see, most companies' philosophy is to continually offer the consumer something new. And there is nothing wrong with this, providing the "new" product has science to support its use as an effective nutritional supplement. Methoxyisoflavone does not. Methoxy isoflavone is a perfect example of a supplement that is completely backed by marketing and not by science.

References:

1. Messina M, Messina V. Soyfoods, soybean isoflavones, and bone health: a brief overview. J.Ren Nutr. 10:63-8, 2000.

2. Scheiber MD, Rebar RW. Isoflavones and post menopausal bone health: a viable alternative to estrogen therapy? Menopause. 6:233-41,1999.

3. Carusi D. Pytoestrogens as hormone replacement therapy: an evidence-based approach. Prim Care Update Observ Gyn. 7:253-259, 2000.

4. Ohta H. et al., Effects of 1-year of ipriflavone treatment on lumbar bone mineral density and bone metabolic markers in postmenopausal women with low bone mass. Horm Res. 51:178-83, 1999.

5. US Patent 3949085: Anabolic-weight-gain promoting compositions containing isoflavone deriviatives and method using the same.

6. US Patent 4163746: Metabolic5-methyl-isoflavone-derivatives, process for preparation thereof and compositions containing the same.

7. Incledon T, Van Gammeren D, Antonio J. The effects of 5-methyl-7-methoxyisoflavone on body composition and performance in college men. Med. Sci. Sports Exerci. 33(5):2001.
 

John Benz

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But you forgot this one! :D Now before you all go yell at me for posting an AST article (Benz) its just more fodder to chew on ;)
Come on now, do I yell? ;) Actually I consider Haycock and Big Cat to be as opinionated as the AST team, so I read them and then decide for myself, taking nothing as gospel.
 

chrisme20

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Thanks for this thread
I bought the hype...Now I will return the unopened bottle of hype to it's Previous owner!:goodpost:
 

AndroAnarchy

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methoxy is crap, just like all flavones, they do nothing at all. placebo effect
 
GuyverX

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methoxy works.
you will not get strength gains on it.
but it will lean you out , make your muscles harder and make it easier for you to get chiseled.
thing is it takes a nice dosage of methoxy.. like 3 frams a day to really feel an effect.

plus it depends on the company who produces it. if they get a crappy source, then you will get a subpar product.

the isoflavones are more adaptogens like suma and maca.
they are hyped upi just to sell better.
bodybuilders usually want solid results and more lean mass.
isoflavones are better for runners, martial artists and similar who do not need the extra muscle mass.
 

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