For those who try to maximise muscle protein synthesis

[DarthGainer]

Theres a topic ongoing on BB (not sure if the links allowed) but title is = For those who try to maximise muscle protein synthesis

If it is i will link it. Whats your thoughts on this.

 

[Grayson]

Link, please.

Just get 3-5 grams of leucine every 3-4 hours. Take with a meal or pre. Layne Norton did all the science on it. What's the fuss?

 

[DarthGainer]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=163570921&page=1

No fuss lol just wanting thoughts. Thoughts in the thread are that Leucine will not work without food unless i'm reading it wrong.

 

[cumminslifter]

why not continue the discussion there?
whats your qquestion on it exactly?

 

[DarthGainer]

Whats the big deals here? All i'm asking is peoples thoughts on the subject on this board, I'm not asking questions or fussing?

 

[The Solution]

Read these....

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf

Larger meals 4-6 hours apart with 5g leucine inbetween as a bolus.

http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass

 

[cumminslifter]

Whats the big deals here? All i'm asking is peoples thoughts on the subject on this board, I'm not asking questions or fussing?

i asked what you were looking for specifically that didnt get answered there, as i would be happy to helo. no fuss at all.

 

[DarthGainer]

I was wanting peoples thoughts on the subject here on this board not BB, I think its interesting topic. Thanks solution for the links.

What i gathered is they are saying BCAA not just leucine is needed or Food & Leucine for MPS.
The thoughts on this board if i'm not mistaken leucine alone can trigger MPS (obviously not everyones opinion)

This not attacking anyone or saying anyones opinion is wrong but its good to get opinions.

 

[Jiigzz]

I for one think doing this is majoring in the minors. I used to think this was a good idea but in all seriousness, who has time to be this pedantic? Milk by itself has good data showing improvements in muscle gain and strength without additional leucine... why not just drink milk?

 

[kissdadookie]

I for one think doing this is majoring in the minors. I used to think this was a good idea but in all seriousness, who has time to be this pedantic? Milk by itself has good data showing improvements in muscle gain and strength without additional leucine... why not just drink milk?

^ Agreed Granted, milk protein is pretty high quality protein in the first place thus contains plenty of leucine in and of itself.

If one doesn't have caloric restrictions, instead of leucine in between meals to get the mTOR spike, you could drink adequate amounts of milk in between your meals/half hour before a meal to spike mTOR and then theoretically better assimilate the protein you are getting from the meal (protein pulsing).

 

[HIT4ME]

I for one think doing this is majoring in the minors. I used to think this was a good idea but in all seriousness, who has time to be this pedantic? Milk by itself has good data showing improvements in muscle gain and strength without additional leucine... why not just drink milk?

I kind of agree with this. I think it's about long-term, consistent habits more than any magic bullet. I've never been so strict about my diet/supplements that I've tried this, so I may be missing out on some great gains...but I doubt it.

People worry about when should I take this, eat this, or drink that too much. There are just so many variables. Pre-training, post training, daily, etc. All these little things have data and arguments supporting one thing of another. You should take whey post-workout, no you need a blend, no you need to keep MPS high all day, no you want to spike MPS after a workout.

Do what you do, be consistent and look for changes that make sense to you - that you can implement, test and repeat if they work (or discard if they don't).

 

[Jiigzz]

^ Agreed Granted, milk protein is pretty high quality protein in the first place thus contains plenty of leucine in and of itself.

If one doesn't have caloric restrictions, instead of leucine in between meals to get the mTOR spike, you could drink adequate amounts of milk in between your meals/half hour before a meal to spike mTOR and then theoretically better assimilate the protein you are getting from the meal (protein pulsing).

Yessir

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413102

"The consumption of either milk or soy protein with resistance training promotes muscle mass maintenance and gains, but chronic consumption of milk proteins after resistance exercise likely supports a more rapid lean mass accrual."

Wheres Snags at?

 

[BCseacow83]

I will take three g of leucine from AS if I remember to with a meal that is not high in leucine. Maybe once or twice a day. With all the other things in life I have to remember there is no way I am going to take it every few hours.

As far as leucine alone I think it comes down to this:

Leucine alone with no food will stimulate MPS BUT BUT BUT the MPS will only continue or be productive for as long as the bodies amino acid pool can support it. If you take leucine and then do not eat it will not be as effective as leucine and then whole complete proteins to feed the increase in need for AA due to increase in MPS. When dealing with BB who the hell is not eating regularly? No one. Thats that as far as I am concerned.

 

[Jiigzz]

I kind of agree with this. I think it's about long-term, consistent habits more than any magic bullet. I've never been so strict about my diet/supplements that I've tried this, so I may be missing out on some great gains...but I doubt it.

People worry about when should I take this, eat this, or drink that too much. There are just so many variables. Pre-training, post training, daily, etc. All these little things have data and arguments supporting one thing of another. You should take whey post-workout, no you need a blend, no you need to keep MPS high all day, no you want to spike MPS after a workout.

Do what you do, be consistent and look for changes that make sense to you - that you can implement, test and repeat if they work (or discard if they don't).

I agree.

The thing with science is that it does not prove anything, it provides evidence toward a claim - hence why stating things as factual can easily make you look like an idiot when you provide just ONE study showing the opposite. Then there are those who take one study that mentions meal timing to be irrelevant and then apply that to EVERYONE and to all situations. No, it doesn't work like that. I can show you a hundred people who eat regularly and time - to some degree- their food intake and look amazing and 100 who don't and look like ****.

At the end of the day, you have to do what best fits your schedule and other lifestyle factors. The primary reasons why anyone gets far in this game is consistency and adherence to a plan. Not because they down leucine every 30 seconds.

 

[The Solution]

I was wanting peoples thoughts on the subject here on this board not BB, I think its interesting topic. Thanks solution for the links.

What i gathered is they are saying BCAA not just leucine is needed or Food & Leucine for MPS.
The thoughts on this board if i'm not mistaken leucine alone can trigger MPS (obviously not everyones opinion)

This not attacking anyone or saying anyones opinion is wrong but its good to get opinions.

Leucine is the main BCAA and most important BCAA you can utilize. Hence why 5g of leucine (a form of a BCAA) would be optimal from the links.

 

[Grayson]

I always take BCAA 6000 with meals. It's got 4 grams of leucine and I make sure I have at least 30g of protein per meal.

 

[money0351]

I was wanting peoples thoughts on the subject here on this board not BB, I think its interesting topic. Thanks solution for the links.

What i gathered is they are saying BCAA not just leucine is needed or Food & Leucine for MPS.
The thoughts on this board if i'm not mistaken leucine alone can trigger MPS (obviously not everyones opinion)

This not attacking anyone or saying anyones opinion is wrong but its good to get opinions.

As I understood it, Luecine threshold must be met in order to stimulate MPS, but you must also pull other EAA (from the food you eat) to use as substrates in order to actually synthesize a new protein for muscular repair

 

[The Solution]

If you eat enough protein at a meal you are going to maxamize MPS, taking a BCAA on top of a meal would be a waste. Unless you have insufficient protein from your whole food or whey source.

I always take BCAA 6000 with meals. It's got 4 grams of leucine and I make sure I have at least 30g of protein per meal.

 

[Grayson]

If you eat enough protein at a meal you are going to maxamize MPS, taking a BCAA on top of a meal would be a waste. Unless you have insufficient protein from your whole food or whey source.

Nope. I fluctutate between 150-155 and on a good day I get around 200g of protein.

Currently I'm getting between 225-250g because I'm back up to maintenance.

Why would BCAA's before/during the meal be a waste? I get good sourced protein (chicken, cottage cheese, beans) but sometimes I don't get the 40-60g required for mps which is why I supplement?

If total protein for the day is met are bcaa's useless?

What about intra-training eaas?

 

[hewhoisripped]

Nope. I fluctutate between 150-155 and on a good day I get around 200g of protein.

Currently I'm getting between 225-250g because I'm back up to maintenance.

Why would BCAA's before/during the meal be a waste? I get good sourced protein (chicken, cottage cheese, beans) but sometimes I don't get the 40-60g required for mps which is why I supplement?

If total protein for the day is met are bcaa's useless?

What about intra-training eaas?

Your meals probably already contain enough leucine and BCAA to maximally stimulate MPS, so more won't help. What seems to be the best protocol (according to Dr Norton) is to have BCAA between meals (and by extension during fasting) as BCAA supplementation doesn't seem to create the refractory effect that protein/meals do (basically you need to let the pathway 'rest' for 4-6h between meals or it won't fire' correctly).

I shoot for meals every 5-6h with 1-2 servings of BCAA in between or smaller meals every 4h or so.

 

[Grayson]

Your meals probably already contain enough leucine and BCAA to maximally stimulate MPS, so more won't help. What seems to be the best protocol (according to Dr Norton) is to have BCAA between meals (and by extension during fasting) as BCAA supplementation doesn't seem to create the refractory effect that protein/meals do (basically you need to let the pathway 'rest' for 4-6h between meals or it won't fire' correctly).

I shoot for meals every 5-6h with 1-2 servings of BCAA in between or smaller meals every 4h or so.

I forgot, but what does current science say on insulin secretion and leucine?

 

[SwolenONE]

Your meals probably already contain enough leucine and BCAA to maximally stimulate MPS, so more won't help. What seems to be the best protocol (according to Dr Norton) is to have BCAA between meals (and by extension during fasting) as BCAA supplementation doesn't seem to create the refractory effect that protein/meals do (basically you need to let the pathway 'rest' for 4-6h between meals or it won't fire' correctly).

I shoot for meals every 5-6h with 1-2 servings of BCAA in between or smaller meals every 4h or so.

In between meals is the way to go for sure. I used leucine between meals when dieting to keep muscle and it actually sped up my fat loss as well. Just 3x a day of 5g, nothing too crazy dose wise, very affordable and easy dosing.

 

[cumminslifter]

Your meals probably already contain enough leucine and BCAA to maximally stimulate MPS, so more won't help. What seems to be the best protocol (according to Dr Norton) is to have BCAA between meals (and by extension during fasting) as BCAA supplementation doesn't seem to create the refractory effect that protein/meals do (basically you need to let the pathway 'rest' for 4-6h between meals or it won't fire' correctly).

I shoot for meals every 5-6h with 1-2 servings of BCAA in between or smaller meals every 4h or so.

very good way to put it

 

[cumminslifter]

I forgot, but what does current science say on insulin secretion and leucine?

it stimulates it well

 

[hewhoisripped]

it stimulates it well

Yes but only a monophasic response, unlike carbs which are biphasic.

 

[cumminslifter]

Yes but only a monophasic response, unlike carbs which are biphasic.

true

 

[The Solution]

Your meals probably already contain enough leucine and BCAA to maximally stimulate MPS, so more won't help. What seems to be the best protocol (according to Dr Norton) is to have BCAA between meals (and by extension during fasting) as BCAA supplementation doesn't seem to create the refractory effect that protein/meals do (basically you need to let the pathway 'rest' for 4-6h between meals or it won't fire' correctly).

I shoot for meals every 5-6h with 1-2 servings of BCAA in between or smaller meals every 4h or so.

I forgot, but what does current science say on insulin secretion and leucine?

In between meals is the way to go for sure. I used leucine between meals when dieting to keep muscle and it actually sped up my fat loss as well. Just 3x a day of 5g, nothing too crazy dose wise, very affordable and easy dosing.

This... exactly these.... as dictated in the links.

 

[HIT4ME]

I agree.

The thing with science is that it does not prove anything, it provides evidence toward a claim - hence why stating things as factual can easily make you look like an idiot when you provide just ONE study showing the opposite. Then there are those who take one study that mentions meal timing to be irrelevant and then apply that to EVERYONE and to all situations. No, it doesn't work like that. I can show you a hundred people who eat regularly and time - to some degree- their food intake and look amazing and 100 who don't and look like ****.

At the end of the day, you have to do what best fits your schedule and other lifestyle factors. The primary reasons why anyone gets far in this game is consistency and adherence to a plan. Not because they down leucine every 30 seconds.

I am going WAAAY off topic in a way here, but I agree with this totally and it reminds me of something I've learned as I've "grown up". When I was younger I thought that in order to become good at something you had to do dramatic things and invest a TON of time into those activities. I used to play the guitar and I felt that if I ever wanted to be great, I had to spend HOURS EVERY DAY and do crazy things. If I wanted to be great at basketball, I had to practice all day, etc.

As I've grown older, I have realized that the friends I have that have become good at these things are not the ones who did the craziest things. They just did the right things, were honest with themselves, and did them consistently enough to constantly improve. I know some world class musicians who will tell you that they can take a novice, and if that person is willing to practice for just 20 minutes a day - but they practice the right skills - they will be amazing in less than 2 years.

I have a friend who's father was a great basketball college basketball player. I used to practice all sorts of crazy things while he was practicing layups and free throws. He'd say, how often do you really use that other stuff? Get good at what you use.

I think with exercise it is this same way - sometimes people want to make crazy changes, or go over the top. They don't realize that they could make a small change that is SO EASY that they can't help but be consistent and it will have a huge impact over time. This is why many people have trouble losing weight. They think, in order to lose weight I have to change, which means I have to change 100%. They don't realize that they may be eating 300 calories over maintenance and simply reducing by 500 calories and doing that for a year will have a dramatic effect.

If these people eat 2 meals/day they often hear they should eat 6 smaller meals and try to implement something that doesn't fit their personality/lifestyle and then they are swimming up stream and fail. They could eat those same 2 meals in an IF type setup and make minor changes to portion size and it wouldn't LOOK much different than what they are already doing but over 2-3 months they would get results and feel like they didn't hardly change anything.

This is WAY off topic and I apologize for this semi-rant - but I see MPS making a huge difference maybe once you are in the top 1%, but is it really going to get you to your goals? I'm not sold.

 

[DarthGainer]

but I see MPS making a huge difference maybe once you are in the top 1%, but is it really going to get you to your goals? I'm not sold.

This is my Thinking at the moment.

 

[DarthGainer]

At the end of the day, you have to do what best fits your schedule and other lifestyle factors. The primary reasons why anyone gets far in this game is consistency and adherence to a plan. Not because they down leucine every 30 seconds.

Again how I was thinking.

 

[blacklac]

I mean, if someone is just home, chilling for 8-12hrs, why not schedule meals? It doesn't have to be black and white. Do whatever fits your lifestyle first, after that worry about the minors. If you desire.





Mini rant, it just bother me when these discussions come up and people just say "oh, dont worry about it. You're making it harder than you need to.". I'd rather just read a real discussion on the current data either supporting or not supporting this idea. Most of the active members in this thread understand my point above. We don't need to be told just hitting a day to day or week to week goal is 98% of it. We know that. Some would simply like to know if doing this or that would make it 99%, or whatever arbitrary number. We're all here to make gains and improve. Honestly, its laughable how much we all push supplements but roll our eyes at meal timing.

Edit: If that sounded like I was pissed, I didn't mean for it to. Lol

 

[Grayson]

I mean, if someone is just home, chilling for 8-12hrs, why not schedule meals? It doesn't have to be black and white. Do whatever fits your lifestyle first, after that worry about the minors. If you desire.



Mini rant, it just bother me when these discussions come up and people just say "oh, dont worry about it. You're making it harder than you need to.". I'd rather just read a real discussion on the current data either supporting or not supporting this idea. Most of the active members in this thread understand my point above. We don't need to be told just hitting a day to day or week to week goal is 98% of it. We know that. Some would simply like to know if doing this or that would make it 99%, or whatever arbitrary number. We're all here to make gains and improve. Honestly, its laughable how much we all push supplements but roll our eyes at meal timing.

Here here!

 

[Jiigzz]

I mean, if someone is just home, chilling for 8-12hrs, why not schedule meals? It doesn't have to be black and white. Do whatever fits your lifestyle first, after that worry about the minors. If you desire.

Mini rant, it just bother me when these discussions come up and people just say "oh, dont worry about it. You're making it harder than you need to.". I'd rather just read a real discussion on the current data either supporting or not supporting this idea. Most of the active members in this thread understand my point above. We don't need to be told just hitting a day to day or week to week goal is 98% of it. We know that. Some would simply like to know if doing this or that would make it 99%, or whatever arbitrary number. We're all here to make gains and improve. Honestly, its laughable how much we all push supplements but roll our eyes at meal timing.

Edit: If that sounded like I was pissed, I didn't mean for it to. Lol

You're missing the forest for the trees here. If you want to be pedantic then that is your right but this is me discussing why i feel it isnt optimal.

Dont play strawman here because noone said meal timing is irrelevant

 

[Spaniard]

I for one think doing this is majoring in the minors. I used to think this was a good idea but in all seriousness, who has time to be this pedantic? Milk by itself has good data showing improvements in muscle gain and strength without additional leucine... why not just drink milk?

Because chocolate milk is sooooooo much more delicious =)

 

[Spaniard]

You're missing the forest for the trees here. If you want to be pedantic then that is your right but this is me discussing why i feel it isnt optimal.

Dont play strawman here because noone said meal timing is irrelevant

Agreed. Completely.

Undue OCD is what I call it. Worrying about the little **** for 2% increases that will not make tangible differences in the end.

 

[cumminslifter]

Agreed. Completely.

Undue OCD is what I call it. Worrying about the little **** for 2% increases that will not make tangible differences in the end.

but the problem is no one knows how much of a difference it does actually make

 

[blacklac]

You're missing the forest for the trees here. If you want to be pedantic then that is your right but this is me discussing why i feel it isnt optimal.

Dont play strawman here because noone said meal timing is irrelevant

I'm not actually. Feel free to read what I wrote again. Nothing pedantic about it.

Its almost ironic that you said I was playing the strawman, now... Lol.

I never said that anyone said it was irrelevant.

 

[blacklac]

Agreed. Completely.

Undue OCD is what I call it. Worrying about the little **** for 2% increases that will not make tangible differences in the end.

Same could be said for every natural supplement on the market, yet we are OCD about them.

 

[Jiigzz]

I'm not actually. Feel free to read what I wrote again. Nothing pedantic about it.

Its almost ironic that you said I was playing the strawman, now... Lol.

I never said that anyone said it was irrelevant.

Last sentence

 

[blacklac]

You're losing me bro. Lol. I agree, no one said it was irrelevant. I'm not sure why you brought that up. If you got that from my first post in this thread, you didn't get my point. I didn't even insinuate that.

But hey, it doesn't even matter. A little back and forth more than likely won't change our stances on it, if they are in fact different. I'd rather just read data.

 

[hewhoisripped]

As I said in my post, shoot for. I FORCE calories and protein. I put importance in my carb/fat cal split. I attempt to time my meals well. This means if I had a shake 1.5h ago and my gf invites me over for dinner, I'll still eat. If I'm going to work for 8h it's easy enough to pack two separate meals and take a break at the 'ideal' times.

 

[HIT4ME]

I mean, if someone is just home, chilling for 8-12hrs, why not schedule meals? It doesn't have to be black and white. Do whatever fits your lifestyle first, after that worry about the minors. If you desire.





Mini rant, it just bother me when these discussions come up and people just say "oh, dont worry about it. You're making it harder than you need to.". I'd rather just read a real discussion on the current data either supporting or not supporting this idea. Most of the active members in this thread understand my point above. We don't need to be told just hitting a day to day or week to week goal is 98% of it. We know that. Some would simply like to know if doing this or that would make it 99%, or whatever arbitrary number. We're all here to make gains and improve. Honestly, its laughable how much we all push supplements but roll our eyes at meal timing.

Edit: If that sounded like I was pissed, I didn't mean for it to. Lol

I don't think this post is way off either. I think Jiggz and I are just putting it in perspective. You are right that probably 75-90% of the people on here are probably more disciplined than the average person. Some people on here can use that extra 1%.

And you are right - the science behind all this is VERY interesting. And many people on this thread have contributed and know this science very well and it is a great discussion. The Engineer, Cummins lifter, Hewhoisripped and The solution have insight that is very interesting and they are probably much further along than I am. And maybe that 1% will be more beneficial to them.

On the other hand, most people reading this thread are going to take it for what it is - information - and may misinterpret it as being necessary. People do this all the time. We were just putting it in perspective I think - this is a very interesting discussion, but the science is mixed and it is a very small part of being able to reach your goals.

 

[kissdadookie]

I don't think this post is way off either. I think Jiggz and I are just putting it in perspective. You are right that probably 75-90% of the people on here are probably more disciplined than the average person. Some people on here can use that extra 1%.

And you are right - the science behind all this is VERY interesting. And many people on this thread have contributed and know this science very well and it is a great discussion. The Engineer, Cummins lifter, Hewhoisripped and The solution have insight that is very interesting and they are probably much further along than I am. And maybe that 1% will be more beneficial to them.

On the other hand, most people reading this thread are going to take it for what it is - information - and may misinterpret it as being necessary. People do this all the time. We were just putting it in perspective I think - this is a very interesting discussion, but the science is mixed and it is a very small part of being able to reach your goals.

Over a long period of time, I believe that it’s been demonstrated over and over again that when macros and calories are a match, spreading meals apart and having more meals per day does actually result in better body composition (more gains, less fat). It’s however something that ends up being hard to notice because the benefits are something that you end up with over a long period of time rather than something very acute and noticeable. The way to think about it however is that the benefits are there and probably over the course of a year, it’s probably pretty significant, but we’re now talking about results that creep up just a little bit each day, month, etc.

So ultimately it comes down to the effort to rewards ratio. That’s something an individual needs to decide for him or herself. The effort and work involved in sticking to strict feeding schedules with 5-6 meals per day spread out evenly and what not, for a lot of people that is probably more work than it’s worth. For others, they might not mind the work so for them this might be something worth considering.

The science however really isn’t mixed at all. It’s been demonstrated pretty definitively that if you have adequate protein meals spread throughout the day, you both stimulate mTOR more overall for that day as well as reap more benefits from the thermogenic effects of food (ultimately you're burning more calories). This if you add it up throughout the course of a year, that’s pretty significant.

 

[cumminslifter]

idk what you guys are arguing about. It seems as though you both agreed about the same thing, but misunderstood what he meant

 

[SwolenONE]

Leucine and arachidonic acid will both help with this to a great extent.