ALA or Vanadyl Sulfate?
- 02-23-2005, 09:55 PM
ALA or Vanadyl Sulfate?
Hey everybody, I just ordered some bulk powders of CEE, citrulline malate, Taurine, Betaine, Tyrosine and Alcar.
Would like to throw in something else that will enhance the uptake of these. Would Alpha Lipoic acid do it or Vanadyl sulfate be a better addition?
I want to stay lean and dont want to gain fat or bloat like I have read that ALA can cause, but I've also read that Vanadyl can be toxic. Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
And also if anyone had suggestions on when and how much of the powders to use daily that would be great as welll.
- 02-23-2005, 10:30 PM
Ala seems to work, but maybe I just don't use enough. Vanadyl Sulfate, however, is the real deal. No doubt about it, I've used it for years. Inorganic minerals are not that toxic, very little is even absorbed. 100-150mg with a carb load after a w/o or with a good meal before bed works very impressively. Hardness and fullness that can't be denied. I've read studies involving use with diabetics and toxicity is not noted either, but it only works at these higher doses and it must be cycled 2on/2off to retain effeciveness.
02-23-2005, 10:39 PM
i used to use it way back in the day when EAS made those blue pills. i definitely noticed an increased hardness.....in my muscles you perverts.......
02-24-2005, 07:39 AM
What do you mean by 2on/2off? 2 weeks on /2weeks of or 2days on/ 2days off?Originally Posted by DR.D
02-24-2005, 10:56 AM
You are kidding!! Vanadyl Sulphate?! I have never met one person who has benefited from this supplement, not one!
Not flaming anybody who thinks they have, but are you sure?? I'd say leave it out your arsenal as all the studies I've seen show it to be beneficial only in diabetic rats! But feel free to prove me wrong.
Effect of acute and short-term administration of vanadyl sulphate on insulin sensitivity in healthy active humans.
Jentjens RL, Jeukendrup AE.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, B15 2TT Birmingham, UK.
Vanadium compounds have been shown to have insulin-like properties in rats and non-insulin-dependent diabetic humans. The purpose of the present study was to examine whether the effects of acute and short-term administration of vanadyl sulfate (VA) on insulin sensitivity also exist in healthy active individuals. Five male and two female participants (age: 24.9 +/- 1.5 years; height: 176.1 +/- 2.9 cm; body mass: 70.1 +/- 2.9 kg) underwent 3 oral glucose tolerance tests (OGTT). The first OGTT was performed to obtain a baseline index of insulin sensitivity (ISI). On the night preceding the second OGTT, participants ingested 100 mg of VS, and the acute effects of VS on ISI were examined. For the next 6 days, participants were instructed to ingest 50 mg of VS twice daily, and a final OGTT was performed on day 7 to determine the short-term effects of VS on ISI. No differences were found in fasting plasma glucose and insulin concentrations after VS administration. Furthermore, ISI after 1 day and 7 days of VS administration was not different compared with baseline ISI (4.8 +/- 0.1 vs. 4.7 +/- 0.1 vs. 4.7 +/- 0.1, respectively). These results demonstrate that there are no acute and short-term effects of VS administration on insulin sensitivity in healthy humans.
Oral vanadyl sulphate does not affect blood cells, viscosity or biochemistry in humans.
Fawcett JP, Farquhar SJ, Thou T, Shand BI.
School of Pharmacy, University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand.
Vanadyl sulphate (VOSO4) is used to improve performance in weight training athletes. Concerns about its safety have arisen because vanadium compounds may cause anaemia and changes in the leukocyte system. In this study, the effects of oral VOSO4 (0.5 mg/kg/day) on haematological indices (red and white cell and platelet counts, red cell mean cell volume and haemoglobin level), blood viscosity (haematocrit, plasma viscosity and blood viscosity at 10s-1 and 100s-1 shear rates) and biochemistry (lipids and indices of liver and kidney function) were investigated in a twelve week, double blind, placebo controlled trial in 31 weight training athletes. Blood viscosity was evaluated at 0, 2, 4, 8 and 12 weeks and haematological indices and biochemistry were measured before and at the end of treatment. Both the treatment group and placebo group showed increases in haematocrit (3.3-3.6%) and blood viscosity (9-11% at 100s-1 shear; 35-38% at 10s-1 shear) but there were no significant effects of treatment. Similarly there were no treatment effects on haematological indices and biochemistry. Concerns about the adverse effects of oral vanadyl sulphate on blood are not supported by the results of this trial.
Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.
Li Z, Carter JD, Dailey LA, Huang YC.
Center for Environmental Medicine, Asthma and Lung Biology, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27599, USA.
Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.
02-24-2005, 10:19 PM
I love it, you perv!!Originally Posted by goldylight
Fairplay101, it only works at 100mg+ doses. It was marketed in 10mg pills, that's probably why nobody really discovered it. 150 is perfect for me. It works better than Diabeta, Glucophage or ALA if you ask me, so there you have it.. I proved you wrong! Really, give it a try at these doses and see for youself. I use the Vanadyl sulfate dihydrate form.
Sr.kevin, I mean 2 weeks, after that, it just mysteriously stops working. You can milk it for 2 more weeks going up to about 300mg, but that gets expensive and potentially toxic. 2 week on/off cycles seems to be the best system. I've used it like this for years.
02-24-2005, 10:26 PM
This is quite interesting Dr. D. It seems like the main thing that turns people away from Vanadyl is the toxicity claim. I'm going to look into this a little more and may give it a try.
Originally Posted by DR.D
02-24-2005, 11:28 PM
Looking at your avatar, I imagine that it would turn you into stone! Man, I haven't been quite that shredded since I was 15, but it makes me rock hard by the very next day for sure. It never showed any toxicity on a std kidney function test while on it (uric acid, creatinine, K, Na, phosphate, Ca, Mg, pH, etc..) and non-organics like the sulfate form don't hurt the liver, so I don't know why that rumor was started. It's next to Chromium on the periodic table, but 2 of the val states vary. Remember, it doesn't mimic insulin, it potentiates it, so a carb load is required. I don't do slin shots, but that would probably be an awesome stack.Originally Posted by Derek_aka_Beast
02-25-2005, 05:37 AM
Now that we are thalking about insulin potentiators and / or mimetics, what do you think about d-pinitol. Do you thinks it's any good? At what dosage?
02-25-2005, 10:37 AM
Thanks for the compliment. That pic was taken 4 weeks out from a comp last summer, after a carb load during which I used 100 mg of Vanadyl (what a coincidence, lol). I've never used vanadyl for longer than a day, but I have some right now am going to try using 100 mg for the next 9 days (only have 90 tabs left). This is actually a good time to use it as I'm out of GXROriginally Posted by DR.D
I'll let you know how it goes.
02-25-2005, 10:52 AM
Dr. D I might give Vanadyl a go then at 100mg+ a day to see how it goes. Can you recommend a good place to get it?
02-25-2005, 11:40 AM
I could have sworn I was getting a better pump from taking it back when I did. I just kept hearing people say that it didn't do anything and it was toxic so I let it fall by the wayside.Originally Posted by Derek_aka_Beast
I might have to give it another look with the new dosages recomendation.
02-25-2005, 03:07 PM
I've been taking 30 mg of Vanadyl sulfate before my meals (90 mg so far). What I have noticed is an increase in vascularity and hunger (hunger is probably due to becoming hypoglycemic). I eat, then 10-20 mins later, I am hungry.
I probably won't use Vanadyl sulfate for the 2 weeks, only twice a week, due to toxicity concerns. Like I said, I'm going to look into it more though.
02-25-2005, 07:42 PM
I used to get it @ 100g/170$ for an online Chem shop. It's just to expensive to buy at GNC the way I was using it, but all the RC sites have dried up! Nobody sells it in bulk now, except maybe Acros or Fluka, last time I checked, so when I run out, I'll have to get creative or something I don't know if d-pinitol works or not, I haven't yet tried it. But using VS 2 to 4 days a wk only, just on w/o nights for example is a good way to keep it's effects fresh and strong too, then it doesn't have to be cycled so strictly.Originally Posted by fairplay101
02-25-2005, 08:59 PM
same here...I used to use in the early 90's, when sportspharma first came out with it...felt pumped.Although when newer products came out, they did not seem to have the same effect.Originally Posted by RMT
02-26-2005, 12:26 AM
i'd take r-ala over vanadyl anyday for its insulin-mimetic properties. you also get the benefits of a powerful antioxident
02-26-2005, 12:49 AM
sounds like you've had quite a bit of experience with Vanadyl.
i just picked some up the other day (found this thread doing a search) so if i'm training in the morning would you suggest basing my pre & post w/o nutrition towards carbs?
usually i stick to protein & fats pre w/o & then have mostly carbs for post w/o.
if so would high or low G.I. fit the bill or doesn't matter?
because of the price i'd rather not spend too much time experimenting.
also have you combined it with creatine as this is something i was also thinking of adding?
02-26-2005, 12:49 PM
I take the same approach: ~pro70%/carb30% pre w/o and carb70%/pro30% post. I workout at night so I take the whole dose with my post workout stuff, but for you in the morning, you may want to split into 2 daily doses. As for the G.I., I like to have a malto shake post w/o and then sitdown and eat something too before much longer, so I get both. I think the VS absorbs slowly in the absense of acid forming food, so I try to cover all the bases. I take creatine pre w/o only, so I can't say how they benifit one another, but there are certainly non oppositional.Originally Posted by Jag
03-09-2005, 08:57 AM
Someone touched on it but I will ask anyway.
What about any counterindication/counteractive possibilities, if they even exist, regarding both ALA and VS. I have been using ALA for anti-o and insulin mimic (post workout) for some time now. Should or could I still continue my protocol and add the VS to my pwo or should I move my ALA to another time of the day. I am pretty regimented and have a discipline that I follow daily. I would rather not have to change this, but if taking the two together is counteractive or counterproductive I will make adjustments. BTW I have a lot of VS and will be dosing at 120mg pwo. My pwo dose of ALA is 300mg.
Thanks for the input.
03-09-2005, 09:38 AM
I take both GXR and VS post-w/o. As far as I know, this is the only thing that the VS is good for, but ALA has other benefits too, why not synergize? I am not aware of any contraindications or what they would be if they existed, I think it's just the opposite. I think you can stick to your current regime and just add it in. You may need to adjust doses or eat more carbs, just have to try it and see.Originally Posted by B5150
08-07-2005, 08:20 PM
I take ala and this week i tryed Vanadyl Sulfate this week .
I noticed maybe an increased hardness and diarreah, possibly a greater pump
any similar expirences
08-07-2005, 08:32 PM
IN another post someone said the reason why VaNADYL has has a bad name in bodybuildign is because Bodybuilders started overdosing and overdosing causes the body to become toxic.The person says 10 mgs a day.
i took it this past week and had the runs just about every day i took 100 mgs ...
i noticed increased hardness
Originally Posted by DR.D
08-08-2005, 02:28 AM
Interesting. I know people who can't even take a multi because the iron in it constipates them. I guess we are all different, it never affects me that way. 100mg of VS is not toxic for me. 10mg is just pointless.Originally Posted by smeton_yea
08-08-2005, 03:53 AM
Can you prove from a bodybuilding standpoint that 10 mgs of VS is useless, and 100 mgs of it can be benifical?
Originally Posted by DR.D
08-08-2005, 06:15 AM
In the real world, 10mg does nother for me. I'll post the articles here if I run across them, but I don't have time to dig for them right now. 50mg is the minimum IMO and 150 the max.
01-13-2007, 05:28 PM
Vanadium is a trace mineral like molybdenum, chromium etc.
I dont think it is a good idea to be taking it over a long period of time without also taking the other trace minerals along with it.
Same principle as taking zinc without copper.
Here is some nice infomation on it:
Vanadium Molybdenum DRI/RDA, health/side effects, toxicity/toxic overdose, nutritional requirements
01-13-2007, 10:55 PM
I've been a little concerned about using Vanadyl just because I see these studies in rats showing nephrotoxicity. Otherwise it appears to work.Originally Posted by DR.D
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