Making My Own BCAA Pre/During WO Cocktail

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    Making My Own BCAA Pre/During WO Cocktail


    What's up AM Members. I've been reading around here for months now, and the board seems to have a lot of good info. I have been looking at BCAA products, like Extend and ICE. They seem like great products, but I just can't afford them. I have been thinking up a pre/during drink to make myself with bulk ingredients. I haven't bought anything yet; here is what I came up with:

    10g BCAA
    2g ALCAR
    3g Citruline Malate
    2g L-Tyrosine
    8g Taurine
    5g Glutamine (maybe peptides)
    Something for flavor (Crystal Light?)

    This mix would dose products such as the CM heavier than EXTEND, and it contains ingredients not typically found in the BCAA drinks. Custom is starting to sell bulk Huperzine and Vinpocetine, and I can get bulk DMAE, so this could actually become a hybrid Neurostim/EXTEND and then some product. I'm willing to bet it will taste horrible, but if it works I'll take it. (I took EAS EcdyMax for 2 months; I can take anything.)

    I would appreciate any thoughts/input anyone might have.
    Thanks

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    Do you want a source of carbs? The mixture should taste pretty ok. Might want to add some B vits, esp B-6. Helps with energy metbalism, usage of aminos. Pretty cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er
    Do you want a source of carbs? The mixture should taste pretty ok. Might want to add some B vits, esp B-6. Helps with energy metbalism, usage of aminos. Pretty cheap.
    Yeah, I was looking for B6, but I couldn't find it in bulk. I"ll check Custom again. Does anywhere else sell bulk, other than 1Fast and Custom if I don't find the B6 there?

    I was wondering about the carbs too. If I use it bulking I will definitely add dextrose, but right now I'm cutting, so I only will on refeed days.

    Thanks for the input.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    Yeah, I was looking for B6, but I couldn't find it in bulk. I"ll check Custom again. Does anywhere else sell bulk, other than 1Fast and Custom if I don't find the B6 there?

    I was wondering about the carbs too. If I use it bulking I will definitely add dextrose, but right now I'm cutting, so I only will on refeed days.

    Thanks for the input.
    Even if you're cutting, I would definitely include some carbs.A 50/50 blend of glucose/maltodextrin. The carbs will go strait to your muscles during and post WO.This will go a long way in preserving muscle during a cut. Just don't take it before or during cardio.

    Also, Glutamine is worthless IMO. Unless you're lying in a hospital bed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Also, Glutamine is worthless IMO. Unless you're lying in a hospital bed.
    Haaaaahhhhh!!! But do you feel this is true for Glutamine Peptides as well?

    Thanks for the info. I've been doing some workouts fairly carb depleted and my endurance in nil, so I think you are probably right about the carbs during training. W/Cardio, once I get going I have little trouble keeping going (I used to run marathons), so I really don't need the carbs w/that. Do you have any thoughts on how much total carbs I should take in during and post w/o? I am 6'0'' and about 190 lbs, fairly lean, 10-12%bf. I am referring to carb intake for cutting. When bulking, I usually take in about 50g pre, 50g during and 80g post, all from dex/malto.

    Thanks for the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Even if you're cutting, I would definitely include some carbs.A 50/50 blend of glucose/maltodextrin. The carbs will go strait to your muscles during and post WO.This will go a long way in preserving muscle during a cut. Just don't take it before or during cardio.

    Also, Glutamine is worthless IMO. Unless you're lying in a hospital bed.
    Why mixing dextrose and malto? I don't get it. They are essentially the same thing. Maybe 50/50 dextrose or malto mixed w/ground oats. That could be interesting pre-workout especially when hypocaloric.

    And as far as glutamine...you could say the same thing about arginine. Unless you're burned or sick. Or you could say the same thing about BCAA's. Unless your deficient. I think glutamine is probably overkill on a bulk. But in a hypocalorice state, pre-workout, I don't think it would kill you since you are sort of synthetically creating an 'ill' state where your body is getting everything it needs, thus begins eating itself. I'm not arguing and don't wanna argue efficacy of glutamine because thats been done a million times but just giving a different point of view.

    J
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    But in a hypocalorice state, pre-workout, I don't think it would kill you since you are sort of synthetically creating an 'ill' state where your body is getting everything it needs, thus begins eating itself.J
    That is a very interesting point of view. I'd like to see how others respond, as I have always been a glutamine user, even though so many are against it.


    BTW, I usually post/read on the bb.com board, and the level of comments/dialogue, as well as civility on this board is infinitely better.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Even if you're cutting, I would definitely include some carbs.A 50/50 blend of glucose/maltodextrin.
    My question comes from this, I was reading on splenda's ingredients, and its just dextrose, maltodextrin, and sucralose. Would that be ok to dump in my Post WO shake to replenish muscles? Would it better than gatorade?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    Haaaaahhhhh!!! But do you feel this is true for Glutamine Peptides as well?

    Thanks for the info. I've been doing some workouts fairly carb depleted and my endurance in nil, so I think you are probably right about the carbs during training. W/Cardio, once I get going I have little trouble keeping going (I used to run marathons), so I really don't need the carbs w/that. Do you have any thoughts on how much total carbs I should take in during and post w/o? I am 6'0'' and about 190 lbs, fairly lean, 10-12%bf. I am referring to carb intake for cutting. When bulking, I usually take in about 50g pre, 50g during and 80g post, all from dex/malto.

    Thanks for the info.
    I would say no more than 80gm total. Drink 1/2 during and down the rest as soon as you're done. About an hr later have your usual low GI PWO meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    My question comes from this, I was reading on splenda's ingredients, and its just dextrose, maltodextrin, and sucralose. Would that be ok to dump in my Post WO shake to replenish muscles? Would it better than gatorade?
    It would not be better. Sucralose is a 0 cal sweetner and the amount of maltodextrin would make it not worthwhile. or cost effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    Why mixing dextrose and malto? I don't get it. They are essentially the same thing. Maybe 50/50 dextrose or malto mixed w/ground oats. That could be interesting pre-workout especially when hypocaloric.
    Dextrose is pure glucose;a mono sacharide absorbed very quickly. Malto dextrin is a longer chain poly sacharide. It's absorbed a little slower than pure glucose but still quick enough to make it ideal for during and post WO. Save the oats for your first solid PWO meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    It would not be better. Sucralose is a 0 cal sweetner and the amount of maltodextrin would make it not worthwhile. or cost effective.
    Gracias... hence my signature!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    Gracias... hence my signature!!
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    I keep my during workout simple

    1 scoop hydroforce by vpx
    1 scoop BCAA's
    5 grams glutamine
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    Bewulf-
    that cocktail is essentially the same one I use for pre-/during w/o, with a little less taurine and a little more citrulline malate. I think it's excellent, but taste would offend some. I mix in some flavor; crystal light, cocoa with splenda (kinda nasty). I eat carbs 1 hour before w/o, so i usually go without here, or eat a banana. With the feedback I've read here, I might mix in some dex from now on. Easy to find, cheap. Nice to see another mad bulk-powder scientist at work!
    Last edited by milwood; 01-31-2005 at 02:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by milwood
    Bewulf-Nice to see another mad bulk-powder scientist at work!
    You mean a mad bulk-powder scientist-in-the-making. I haven't done it yet, and it will be my first real venture. So far I have only attempted to use Bulk Caffeine Anhydrous :insert vomit smilie: and citruline malate, which I add to Neurostim. I'm hoping this will workout.
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    Thanks for the input everyone.

    I posted this same thread on bb.com. It is interesting to see how the two boards compare. It has had twenty% more views, but only 7 people have replied, vs. 11 here. If you'd like to compare the types of responses, check this out: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=401258

    I'm not trying to say that bb.com is worthless. There are a lot of people there who are very knowledgeable, but there is so much traffic and so many repeat threads, that a lot of threads get ignored. And there are too many people who are always arguing about everything to the point that people get banned left and right.
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    No offense, but I just don't trust or believe in alot of the things over at bb.com... I don't think they have the knowledge, experience, or the overall amount of knowledgeable people that AM has.
    Last edited by BOHICA; 01-30-2005 at 05:43 PM. Reason: not to sound like an asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    No offense, but I just don't trust or believe in alot of the things over at bb.com... especially when one of the leading posters is 17 and hasn't had hardly any experience with alot of the things being talked about. Just my 2 cents though....
    Don't doubt people because of their age...if you read these boards enough and gain enough anecdotal evidence and experience, anyone of any age can provide advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    I'm not trying to say that bb.com is worthless. There are a lot of people there who are very knowledgeable, but there is so much traffic and so many repeat threads, that a lot of threads get ignored. And there are too many people who are always arguing about everything to the point that people get banned left and right.
    I used to call BB.com my home.(OMG, did I just admit that?? ) This was years ago. Eventually, if you're persistant enough, you are lead to places where real knowlege is available. That's why I'm proud to call AM my home.
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    LOL


    Not to misquote the great Jay-z, but I've got so many differnet colored random bags of powdered goodies that if the man found out I'd be sent up for life!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc

    And as far as glutamine...you could say the same thing about arginine. Unless you're burned or sick. Or you could say the same thing about BCAA's. Unless your deficient. I think glutamine is probably overkill on a bulk. But in a hypocalorice state, pre-workout, I don't think it would kill you since you are sort of synthetically creating an 'ill' state where your body is getting everything it needs, thus begins eating itself. I'm not arguing and don't wanna argue efficacy of glutamine because thats been done a million times but just giving a different point of view.

    J
    Both Arginine and BCAA's have studies showing their positive effect using oral doses. Glutamine does not.

    As for carb sources, it depends on what your pre-workout meal consists of. Drinking a glucose mixture when you are already digesting a solid meal will not add any benefit and will actually cause more of a crash. If you havne't had a solid meal within 90 minutes then a glucose/fructose mixture would be the most beneficial. You will get a quick energy source along with a slower one that will prevent a crash DURING your workout.

    This is one reason I like Vendetta because it has both sources along with free form amino's which show more benefit then straight BCAA's during a workout.
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    Bobo posted some stuff about how worthless glutamine is. I stay away after reading his post.

    I'd add some diarginine malate and lysine (3 & 1 respetively).
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    Thanks. The hospitality of AM in full effect.

    Bobo, does that go for the peptides as well as L-Glutamine.
    Maybe I will just say goodbye to glutamine.
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    Peptides survive the splanchnic bed a tiny bit more but nothing of any significance.

    Free and protein-bound glutamine have identical splanchnic extraction in healthy human volunteers.

    Boza JJ, Dangin M, Moennoz D, Montigon F, Vuichoud J, Jarret A, Pouteau E, Gremaud G, Oguey-Araymon S, Courtois D, Woupeyi A, Finot PA, Ballevre O.

    Nestle Research Center, Vers-Chez-Les-Blanc, 1000 Lausanne 26, Switzerland.

    The objectives of the present study were to determine the splanchnic extraction of glutamine after ingestion of glutamine-rich protein ((15)N-labeled oat proteins) and to compare it with that of free glutamine and to determine de novo glutamine synthesis before and after glutamine consumption. Eight healthy adults were infused intravenously in the postabsorptive state with L-[1-(13)C]glutamine (3 micromol x kg(-1) x h(-1)) and L-[1-(13)C]lysine (1.5 micromol x kg(-1) x h(-1)) for 8 h. Four hours after the beginning of the infusion, subjects consumed (every 20 min) a liquid formula providing either 2.5 g of protein from (15)N-labeled oat proteins or a mixture of free amino acids that mimicked the oat-amino acid profile and contained L-[2,5-(15)N(2)]glutamine and L-[2-(15)N]lysine. Splanchnic extraction of glutamine reached 62.5 +/- 5.0% and 66.7 +/- 3.9% after administration of (15)N-labeled oat proteins and the mixture of free amino acids, respectively. Lysine splanchnic extraction was also not different (40.9 +/- 11.9% and 34.9 +/- 10.6% for (15)N-labeled oat proteins and free amino acids, respectively). The main conclusion of the present study is that glutamine is equally bioavailable when given enterally as a free amino acid and when protein bound. Therefore, and taking into consideration the drawbacks of free glutamine supplementation of ready-to-use formulas for enteral nutrition, protein sources naturally rich in this amino acid are the best option for providing stable glutamine.
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    Based on that it seems that glutamine intake is important. If food is as good as supplemental glutamine, and I am taking it pre and during a workout, wouldn't it then make sense to take a glut supp? I don't do well with eating before workouts.
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    My ideal pre workout would be something like:

    30mins pre:
    3g CEE
    3g Citrulline malate
    10g Taurine
    2g ALCAR
    2g Tyrosine
    3g Choline
    1-2g Betaine HCL
    500mg DAME

    then a whey/dex shake at the start of the workout.

    It kind of a Body octane/Neurostim hybrid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    Based on that it seems that glutamine intake is important. If food is as good as supplemental glutamine, and I am taking it pre and during a workout, wouldn't it then make sense to take a glut supp? I don't do well with eating before workouts.
    Gluatmine intake is achieved with any protein source. If you are taking in protein around your workout, then why would you add more glutamine (since the majority of its fate is conversion into glucose anyway) ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    ...The carbs will go strait to your muscles during and post WO.This will go a long way in preserving muscle during a cut.
    This is no joke. Fantastic practice to get into. It does wonders for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    No offense, but I just don't trust or believe in alot of the things over at bb.com... I don't think they have the knowledge, experience, or the overall amount of knowledgeable people that AM has.
    BB.com is fantastic if you cannot afford tickets to Ringling Bros., etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    I used to call BB.com my home.(OMG, did I just admit that?? ) This was years ago. Eventually, if you're persistant enough, you are lead to places where real knowlege is available. That's why I'm proud to call AM my home.
    Congrats on the moderator-ship? (waiting for beowulf to jump on me for that one) Eventhough you used to be a bb.com person
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    Thanks. It is amazing how things can change over time.
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    Agreed, like the circus comment though.
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    Lightbulb Ahhhhh Hahhhhh


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Gluatmine intake is achieved with any protein source. If you are taking in protein around your workout, then why would you add more glutamine (since the majority of its fate is conversion into glucose anyway) ??
    So the Glut from my whey is sufficient to cover protein needs. But if I switch to a BCAA drink, I would not be getting the protein, just Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine. In that case it seems I would need glut.

    Sorry to be such a pain in the ass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    Congrats on the moderator-ship? (waiting for beowulf to jump on me for that one) Eventhough you used to be a bb.com person
    I'm not the stuck-up English teacher type; I encourage kids to experiment with language. That is where innovation comes from.
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    I used to buy BCAA powder. The stuff tastes like battery acid. Nothing really killed the taste of it. The only thing that came close was when I mixed it into v-12. IMO you are better off just buying the premade one, unless you can stand the taste of the powder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    I used to buy BCAA powder. The stuff tastes like battery acid. Nothing really killed the taste of it. The only thing that came close was when I mixed it into v-12. IMO you are better off just buying the premade one, unless you can stand the taste of the powder.
    I don't know what brand you were using, but I use Optimum BCAA5000. It's a little bitter but isn't that bad in a protein shake. One of the best values i've come across too.
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    Has anyone tried 1Fast400's BCAA's???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    So the Glut from my whey is sufficient to cover protein needs. But if I switch to a BCAA drink, I would not be getting the protein, just Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine. In that case it seems I would need glut.

    Sorry to be such a pain in the ass.
    Not really. As long as your protein intake is fairly high throughout the day, you are fine. You will hardly ever come close to depleting glutamine stores (unless your an extreme endurace athlete)
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