Saturated Fats/LDL/Cardivascular Disease

[Whacked]

I know I know, dietary fats have been unjustly (perhaps?) villified ad nauseum by the masses for many years now.

That said, how much of it is actual "truth". Are saturated fats responsible for CVD/arterial plaquing/sclerosing etc in ANY way?

IMHO, the" CVD-saturated fats-connection" largely has to do with the types of saturated fats eaten for the studies.

By this I mean....

Often times, fried foods are often eaten in conjunction with carbs. (Fried "anything" is made of batter which is made from starch)

So, being a low carb disciple, and thusly eating lots of fats, should I avoid saturated fats?

Are greasy burgers, full fat cheese acceptable foods "regularly". I have been so indoctrinated myself that it's hard for me to eat these.

I typically get all my fats from fish, nuts and occassionally EVOO.

*** For the purpose of this thread, please discusss dairy and meat sources ONLY.
This thread is NOT about the wonders of coconut oil - it's an entiurelty differernt type of saturated fat***

 

[Jiigzz]

I know I know, dietary fats have been unjustly (perhaps?) villified ad nauseum by the masses for many years now.

That said, how much of it is actual "truth". Are saturated fats responsible for CVD/arterial plaquing/sclerosing etc in ANY way?

IMHO, the" CVD-saturated fats-connection" largely has to do with the types of saturated fats eaten for the studies.

By this I mean....

Often times, fried foods are often eaten in conjunction with carbs. (Fried "anything" is made of batter which is made from starch)

So, being a low carb disciple, and thusly eating lots of fats, should I avoid saturated fats?

Are greasy burgers, full fat cheese acceptable foods "regularly". I have been so indoctrinated myself that it's hard for me to eat these.

I typically get all my fats from fish, nuts and occassionally EVOO.

*** For the purpose of this thread, please discusss dairy and meat sources ONLY.
This thread is NOT about the wonders of coconut oil - it's an entiurelty differernt type of saturated fat***

Saturated fats responsible? Doubtful. Im on phone so i cant post sources but can later. The idea that saturated fats cause heart disease (named the lipid hypothesis) was drummed up by a scientist who manipulated data to show a trend that wasnt there.

He went all over the world and conducted analysis on the countries fat intakes and there heart disease mortality rates, there was no causation identified so he manipulated the data to make one appear so.

Finally now we are now looking at LDL particle sizes and are seeing that when LDL particles are small, they pose the greatest threat as they can pass through the endothelium of arteries much easily where they can be oxidised by white blood cells which then in turn become foam cells which blocks the arteries.

When LDL particles are large, they are less likely to cause issue as they pass through the arteries without entering the endothelium.
So what makes an LDL particle small? There are studies (look up my username with the keyword LDL p) that show a correlation between an increase in triglycerides causing a decrease in Ldl particle size. This makes sense as obese people have a much greater chance of developing heart disease than lean people.
But also there is a relationship between high carb intakes and increased triglycerides with data showing favourable changes in lipid profiles following lower carb higher fat diets (carbs at or below 40% of daily intake).

I have plenty of studies on file to emphasize this but also google 'total cholesterol and all cause mortality rate chart'. This will highlight that serum cholesterol between 200 and 220 was associated with the lowest all cause mortality rates. Take from that what you will.

As an aside, grease is simplily liquified fat so the notion they are unhealthy based on this is incorrect, but avoiding a burger that is heavily processsd imo is a good choice.

Making your own from ground beef and what not is acceptable to me.

I also add cream to my shakes.

 

[Whacked]

Dang dude. Good info. Thanks Jiggy!

Let's see if we cant get a dialogue going here though with some contrarion positions for the sake of discussion/education

 

[Whacked]

I have plenty of studies on file to emphasize this but also google 'total cholesterol and all cause mortality rate chart'. This will highlight that serum cholesterol between 200 and 220 was associated with the lowest all cause mortality rates. Take from that what you will

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20470020

Boom

 

[mirra250]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20470020 Boom

Note that they only studied total cholesterol and not HDL, LDL, and the rest!

I remember coming across some studies during my literature review on the benefits of HDL for myocardial glucose metabolism that suggested low HDL is much more strongly correlated with CVD than high LDL

 

[Jiigzz]

Note that they only studied total cholesterol and not HDL, LDL, and the rest!

I remember coming across some studies during my literature review on the benefits of HDL for myocardial glucose metabolism that suggested low HDL is much more strongly correlated with CVD than high LDL

You'll find that there are a lot of issues with previous studies surrounding cholesterol levels. That study is worthwhile though as it is in response to what I posted about Total Cholesterol and all cause mortality -- total cholesterol is typically advised to be under 200, and the further beneath this number, the better; however if you look at collective data, too low Total Cholesterol is associated with an increase in all cause mortality.

Many of which take already obese people and put them on high fat diets (usually ad libitum or at an intake that exceeds control) which will obviously cause their situation to deteriorate. But now that we understand the role of triglycerides and their effect on LDL particle size; we can assume that the bigger someone is, the greater the likelihood of developing CVD. There are of course outliers who develop it even when lean but there is a correlation between why CVD is on the rise as the population is also getting bigger.

It is a complex issue so what I've said is not the only reason someone will develop it; but it is worthwhile to understand that fats, and in particular saturated fats, have been villanized on no solid substantive data.

PDF for all cause mortality is available here: http://renegadewellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cholesterol-mortality-chart.pdf

Some studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1420088
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19657464
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685042
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/384.long

 

[Johnston]

I love reading about this topic, and the science is a real eye opener, but I despair at the ignorance of most people. I can't even get my sister to try coconut oil as she sees the word 'saturated' and runs a mile. Needless to say most of us are preaching to the converted on here.

 

[JudoJosh]

That said, how much of it is actual "truth". Are saturated fats responsible for CVD/arterial plaquing/sclerosing etc in ANY way?

The current evidence doesnt support the realtionship

So, being a low carb disciple, and thusly eating lots of fats, should I avoid saturated fats?

No

Are greasy burgers, full fat cheese acceptable foods "regularly".

Yes

 

[Whacked]

My eyes have been open

Thanks fellas!

So I ran across a well-written article from an author who seems to be money on most things (at least IMHO):

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/

Then there's this article with citations that also seems to put it all together nicely; although on the last page/the summation doesn't reinforce their own words for some odd reason:

http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/recipes/healthy-eating/nutrition/good-and-bad-fats/?page=1

 

[RecompMan]

The current evidence doesnt support the realtionship

No

Yes

Inhibition of sreb2 seems to reduce the LDLr in the liver. Which is a way fiber exerts a cholesterol lowering effect by increasing sreb2

TAGs seem to clog that receptor in the liver.

Main cause of all this IMO is insulin resistance

 

[Whacked]

This seems to be the main cause of MANY diseases these days.

Chronically elevated insulin levels from faulty glucose metabolism = systemic inflammation / increased free radicals from excessive lipid perioxidation = pre-mature aging/disease/pathology of all varieties
(Diabetes type II, CVD, Syndrome X, Links to Alzheimer's, even cataracts)

Main cause of all this IMO is insulin resistance

 

[RecompMan]

This seems to be the main cause of MANY diseases these days.

Chronically elevated insulin levels from faulty glucose metabolism = systemic inflammation / increased free radicals from excessive lipid perioxidation = pre-mature aging/disease/pathology of all varieties
(Diabetes type II, CVD, Syndrome X, Links to Alzheimer's, even cataracts)

Ahh yes, but here enlies certain things

TNF-a is responsible for insuline resistance HOWEVER an this is where it gets crazy, it is responsible for increasing lipolysis in mature cells and preventing adipocyte differentiation

So it plays dual roles! Mind= blown!

But it is one way to drop crazy amounts of weight, and lead to apoptosis in adipocytes

I've found a couple pretty good ingredients that do this but also keep insulin sensitivity in muscle.

 

[Whacked]

Dammmm u. Quit confusing me.

Oooo and name the ingredients please

Thank u

Ahh yes, but here enlies certain things TNF-a is responsible for insuline resistance HOWEVER an this is where it gets crazy, it is responsible for increasing lipolysis in mature cells and preventing adipocyte differentiation So it plays dual roles! Mind= blown! But it is one way to drop crazy amounts of weight, and lead to apoptosis in adipocytes I've found a couple pretty good ingredients that do this but also keep insulin sensitivity in muscle.

 

[RecompMan]

Dammmm u. Quit confusing me.

Oooo and name the ingredients please

Thank u

Can't name ingredients just yet, here's a study tho

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en&biw=320&bih=416&ei=BPrnUsuGLKzNsQSnkoCQBQ&q=tnf-a+role+in+lipolysis&oq=tnf-a+role+in+lipolysis&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...3261.6704.0.7231.18.18.0.0.0.8.396.2608.2j14j1j1.18.0....0...1c.1.32.mobile-gws-serp..14.4.664.YOMbfxm7ixw

 

[JudoJosh]

EBF Inc, is just a tease..

 

[RecompMan]

EBF Inc, is just a tease..

Haha

Thanks man.

The ingredients I looked at I've been trying to source

 

[criticalbench]

I think the bigger issue here, is that people do not intake enough healthy fats. Saturated fats are highly overplayed. When I worked on a cardiac ICU, our nutritionist who would come back post heart attack to speak with patients, would be like,

1. ZERO Salt
2. Absolutely NO saturated fats
3. Keep non-saturated fats to a minimum
4. Coconut oil will kill you

etc.. I would just shake my head... how could you be so stupid.

 

[Whacked]

@EBF Inc, is just a tease..

.........and one selfish azz mutha-XZY

LOL

 

[Whacked]

School her antiquated butt Mike!
CARPE DIEM!
Take ownership of that floor!

I think the bigger issue here, is that people do not intake enough healthy fats. Saturated fats are highly overplayed. When I worked on a cardiac ICU, our nutritionist who would come back post heart attack to speak with patients, would be like,

1. ZERO Salt
2. Absolutely NO saturated fats
3. Keep non-saturated fats to a minimum
4. Coconut oil will kill you

etc.. I would just shake my head... how could you be so stupid.

 

[horizons]

How does one increase their fats in their diet while cutting?

 

[Jiigzz]

I think the bigger issue here, is that people do not intake enough healthy fats. Saturated fats are highly overplayed. When I worked on a cardiac ICU, our nutritionist who would come back post heart attack to speak with patients, would be like,

1. ZERO Salt
2. Absolutely NO saturated fats
3. Keep non-saturated fats to a minimum
4. Coconut oil will kill you

etc.. I would just shake my head... how could you be so stupid.

This makes me sad as it is likely this diet that got them there in the first place.

 

[Jiigzz]

How does one increase their fats in their diet while cutting?

Depends on your current ratio. I tend to increase animal protein during a cut which coincides with an increase in fat. Usually i'll lower carbs to compensate.

 

[RecompMan]

I think the bigger issue here, is that people do not intake enough healthy fats. Saturated fats are highly overplayed. When I worked on a cardiac ICU, our nutritionist who would come back post heart attack to speak with patients, would be like,

1. ZERO Salt
2. Absolutely NO saturated fats
3. Keep non-saturated fats to a minimum
4. Coconut oil will kill you

etc.. I would just shake my head... how could you be so stupid.

Dat dere DASH diet bull****.

I it's what I went to school fr, so far behind research by like 14years.

 

[RecompMan]

Depends on your current ratio. I tend to increase animal protein during a cut which coincides with an increase in fat. Usually i'll lower carbs to compensate.

Same here. I'll eat more beef on a cut then on a bulk for whatever reason. I crave it more

 

[mr.cooper69]

I think this is still an area of ongoing investigation. No conclusions are hard in my books, as recent treatment guidelines reflect our ever-changing knowledge on the topic. It's the #1 killer in America for good reason. If we had it figured out, it wouldn't be (though we are definitely learning, as mortality rates have dropped; in fact, cancer will soon be the #1 killer, which is a reflection of how truly little we understand about that animal [in before conspiracy theorists])

 

[Whacked]

Not to detail but what are you in school FOR Coop?

What is your background?

You have such an amazing grasp on so many things discussed on this forum it's impressive.

Just curious as to which area of study allows for this as these boards dictate a certain niche criterion of knowledge; not just medicine, or pharmacology and certainly not "just" nutrition.

Your background/current studies seem to include knowledge of all 3

I think this is still an area of ongoing investigation. No conclusions are hard in my books, as recent treatment guidelines reflect our ever-changing knowledge on the topic. It's the #1 killer in America for good reason. If we had it figured out, it wouldn't be (though we are definitely learning, as mortality rates have dropped; in fact, cancer will soon be the #1 killer, which is a reflection of how truly little we understand about that animal [in before conspiracy theorists])

 

[Johnston]

Coop isn't in school... he schools us. He IS knowledge. He's like the Matrix.... who is Coop? You cannot be told who Coop is, you have to see for yourself.

 

[bdcc]

I was having a conversation with Cyrus over lunch and he said "there is no spoon".

I looked down and all my cutlery had disappeared.

 

[Whacked]

LOLOL

Coop isn't in school... he schools us. He IS knowledge. He's like the Matrix.... who is Coop? You cannot be told who Coop is, you have to see for yourself.

I was having a conversation with Cyrus over lunch and he said "there is no spoon". I looked down and all my cutlery had disappeared.

 

[Jiigzz]

Not to detail but what are you in school FOR Coop?

What is your background?

You have such an amazing grasp on so many things discussed on this forum it's impressive.

Just curious as to which area of study allows for this as these boards dictate a certain niche criterion of knowledge; not just medicine, or pharmacology and certainly not "just" nutrition.

Your background/current studies seem to include knowledge of all 3

Coop is Wikipedia on crack.

In before Coopepedia

 

[Jiigzz]

I was having a conversation with Cyrus over lunch and he said "there is no spoon".

I looked down and all my cutlery had disappeared.

I wish I could rep this LOL

 

[PuZo]

I love me some fats