when bulking

[RaulJimenez]

Originally posted by Bobo


Show me why. Studies have shown that the combination of a protein and carb in itself causes a significant insulin release without the extra glucose. So you get fast transports of nutrients without the disadvantage of excess glucose being stored as fat. THe supplement companies will tell you need high gi sources to replenish glycogen stores and its not true. Why? Its cheaper for them to make. Plus your not even taking into account the glycemic load the shake will produce by itself. In other words, you will get plenty of insulin to transport a steady stream of glucose into muscle glycogen.

After training your body is in a unique metabolic state where your muscles will accept more nutrients due to muscle substrate depletion caused by training. With this understanding you want to take full advantage of this key time period , by using certain foods that will provide a very efficient nitrogen source and a high glycemic index carbohydrate to elevate blood glucose levels. As a result of increase blood glucose, an increase in insulin will result. The resulting increase in insulin due to the consumption of the high GI carbs will enhance nutrient transport into muscle tissue even further at this very opportune time. This unique nutrient combination has a substantial hyper-nutrient transport effect.
The time period after training is when you want to consume high GI carbs for both energy requirements and the insulin response. After this 3 hour time period you want to design your meals and supplementation using the glycemic index to pick food with a lower GI.

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 34;9:1436-1439, 2002.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by RaulJimenez


After training your body is in a unique metabolic state where your muscles will accept more nutrients due to muscle substrate depletion caused by training. With this understanding you want to take full advantage of this key time period , by using certain foods that will provide a very efficient nitrogen source and a high glycemic index carbohydrate to elevate blood glucose levels. As a result of increase blood glucose, an increase in insulin will result. The resulting increase in insulin due to the consumption of the high GI carbs will enhance nutrient transport into muscle tissue even further at this very opportune time. This unique nutrient combination has a substantial hyper-nutrient transport effect.
The time period after training is when you want to consume high GI carbs for both energy requirements and the insulin response. After this 3 hour time period you want to design your meals and supplementation using the glycemic index to pick food with a lower GI.

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 34;9:1436-1439, 2002.

With this "uniques metaboic state" your body will accept more nutrients but the problem is the combiniation of a protein and carb source together has been shown to provide just as much as an insulin spike as a high carb drink by itself. The result will be an adequate inusulin spike, steady stream of glucose and amino's, and the advantage of not having excess glucose being stored as fat. Everyone above is correct, but I can achieve the saem results with a lower GI source with many more benefits.

Simple and complex carbohydrate-rich diets and muscle glycogen content of marathon runners.

Roberts KM, Noble EG, Hayden DB, Taylor AW.

Faculty of Physical Education, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada.

The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared. Twenty male marathon runners were divided into four equal groups with reference to dietary consumption: depletion/simple, depletion/complex, nondepletion/simple, and nondepletion/complex. Subjects consumed either a low-CHO (15% energy [E] intake), or a mixed diet (50% CHO) for 3 days, immediately followed by a high-CHO diet (70% E intake) predominant in either simple-CHO or in complex-CHO (85% of total CHO intake) for another 3 days. Skeletal muscle biopsies and venous blood samples were obtained one day prior to the start of the low-CHO diet or mixed diet (PRE), and then again one day after the completion of the high-CHO diet (POST). The samples were analysed for skeletal muscle glycogen, serum free fatty acids (FFA), insulin, and lactate and blood glucose. Skeletal muscle glycogen content increased significantly (p less than 0.05) only in the nondepletion/simple group. When groups were combined, according to the type of CHO ingested and/or utilization of a depletion diet, significant increases were observed in glycogen content. Serum FFA decreased significantly (p less than 0.05) for the nondepletion/complex group only, while serum insulin, blood glucose, and serum lactate were not altered. It is concluded that significant increases in skeletal muscle glycogen content can be achieved with a diet high in simple-CHO or complex-CHO, with or without initial consumption of a low-CHO diet.

So, were both right, but it can be achieved with a better and smarter carbohydrate source.



The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.

van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. RH01769@RH.DK

The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.


This shows that a combo wheat/whey had higher glycogen resynthesis than the glucose/glutamine mix. THey weren't significantly different but shows once again that it can be ahcieved both ways. Its only smarter to go with a lower GI source to eliminate excessive spikes and glucose storage.

[RaulJimenez]

Originally posted by Bobo


With this "uniques metaboic state" your body will accept more nutrients but the problem is the combiniation of a protein and carb source together has been shown to provide just as much as an insulin spike as a high carb drink by itself. The result will be an adequate inusulin spike, steady stream of glucose and amino's, and the advantage of not having excess glucose being stored as fat. Everyone above is correct, but I can achieve the saem results with a lower GI source with many more benefits.

Simple and complex carbohydrate-rich diets and muscle glycogen content of marathon runners.

Roberts KM, Noble EG, Hayden DB, Taylor AW.

Faculty of Physical Education, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada.

The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared. Twenty male marathon runners were divided into four equal groups with reference to dietary consumption: depletion/simple, depletion/complex, nondepletion/simple, and nondepletion/complex. Subjects consumed either a low-CHO (15% energy [E] intake), or a mixed diet (50% CHO) for 3 days, immediately followed by a high-CHO diet (70% E intake) predominant in either simple-CHO or in complex-CHO (85% of total CHO intake) for another 3 days. Skeletal muscle biopsies and venous blood samples were obtained one day prior to the start of the low-CHO diet or mixed diet (PRE), and then again one day after the completion of the high-CHO diet (POST). The samples were analysed for skeletal muscle glycogen, serum free fatty acids (FFA), insulin, and lactate and blood glucose. Skeletal muscle glycogen content increased significantly (p less than 0.05) only in the nondepletion/simple group. When groups were combined, according to the type of CHO ingested and/or utilization of a depletion diet, significant increases were observed in glycogen content. Serum FFA decreased significantly (p less than 0.05) for the nondepletion/complex group only, while serum insulin, blood glucose, and serum lactate were not altered. It is concluded that significant increases in skeletal muscle glycogen content can be achieved with a diet high in simple-CHO or complex-CHO, with or without initial consumption of a low-CHO diet.

So, were both right, but it can be achieved with a better and smarter carbohydrate source.



The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.

van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. RH01769@RH.DK

The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.


This shows that a combo wheat/whey had higher glycogen resynthesis than the glucose/glutamine mix. THey weren't significantly different but shows once again that it can be ahcieved both ways. Its only smarter to go with a lower GI source to eliminate excessive spikes and glucose storage.

Nice debate and reading, after reading your evidence I'm willing to try the method you prescribed above since I haven't tested it for myself, I always used a high GI carb drink like Maltodextrin plus a mix of glutamine and creatine to replenish my glycogen stores on muscle cells, will defnitely give it a try.

[Dwight Schrute]

Sounds good. Most people do use a mix like you mentioned but don't realize the benefits that can be achieved using smarter sources of carbs. THe supp companies push these high GI mixes because they do work, but more importantly, are cheaper to make. From doing research and my own personal experiences I've achieved the same results, without the extr flab with a lower GI source. Hopefully this will work for you as well.

[John Benz]

After many years of training, I have come to the conclusion along with Bobo,,RippedUp, jweave23, J-Rod and others that the slight benefit from the insulin spike created by Malto/Dex post workout is not worth the tradeoff in fat accumulation. MY gains are every bit as good just adding low GI carbs and using a pre -workout meal/shake to prevent getting into a full-blown catabolic state.

I gained size and strength at the same rate before I got scientific about post-workout malto, and my waist stayed 31" @ weight of 210. Maintaining the waistline has been much easier since I listened to Bobo, and dropped the post-workout sugar, and strength and gains have not suffered one bit.

BTW, for some of those new to the board, Bobo is a nutritional genius. Except when it comes to glutamine.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz


BTW, for some of those new to the board, Bobo is a nutritional genius. Except when it comes to glutamine.

My ego just exploded....


Where is YJ to kncok me back to down.....

[Draven]

Ok, interesting debate....may have converted me over as well....only problem, I have 10 pounds of malto and dex laying around. I imagine using this in a shake as an MRP, with fat included, shouldn't be a concern when looking to add cals to a whey shake, correct? The fat would slow digestion enough as not to create a HUGE insulin spike as it does without the fats.

[ReDCuBiN]

Originally posted by John Benz
BTW, for some of those new to the board, Bobo is a nutritional genius. Except when it comes to glutamine.

Lol ye I've noticed, good stuff all around.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by Draven
Ok, interesting debate....may have converted me over as well....only problem, I have 10 pounds of malto and dex laying around. I imagine using this in a shake as an MRP, with fat included, shouldn't be a concern when looking to add cals to a whey shake, correct? The fat would slow digestion enough as not to create a HUGE insulin spike as it does without the fats.

Well if you have to use it, use it post workout at no more than 30g. I would scrap the fat idea because you will still get a high spike, and also you will get a large insulin load (total amount). Your doing a keto diet so keep combos protein/fat, carb/protein (refeeds) and stay away from carb/fat. Just save the high GI stuff to kickstart your refeed and you should be ok.

[Draven]

Originally posted by Bobo


Well if you have to use it, use it post workout at no more than 30g. I would scrap the fat idea because you will still get a high spike, and also you will get a large insulin load (total amount). Your doing a keto diet so keep combos protein/fat, carb/protein (refeeds) and stay away from carb/fat. Just save the high GI stuff to kickstart your refeed and you should be ok.

Sorry, I should have explained better. I meant to use as an MRP for just a normal meal while bulking, not post workout, that's why I mentioned the fat to avoid getting a huge spike during a regular meal.

Yes, right now I'm on keto but just got my Sone+ last night and will be switching to bulking soon, that's when I planned to use it. I'll have to eat somewhere around 4500 (was eating 4000 while not on, so need more) and being able to add malto/dex to my shakes helps makeup the cals.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Dwight Schrute]

It will definetly add weight.

[Supa Freek 420]

Hey Bobo, I have a feeling you may have posted this before, but can you post an example of your postworkout meal?

[Dwight Schrute]

I have a shake. Its real simple. Protein mix and some rolled oats. The meal I have after that varies.

[Supa Freek 420]

Thanks Bobo.

[sctxms]

Bobo
What about nuking a half of yam and washing it down with a protein shake?

[Dwight Schrute]

I try to stay away from starchy carbs in general but if thats what you want to do, post workout would be the time to do it. Yam's GI is lower but its GL is still a little high for me.