47 year old male with low T...need help
- 06-18-2013, 09:48 PM
47 year old male with low T...need help
I posted this in the Over 35 section but then realized that main section there is Anabolics and I'm looking for natty...
As stated, 47, low T (last checked it was 200ish...can't find the lab sheet). I was prescribed Androgel and was tested 3 months later with no increase in Test numbers. I may have been applying it wrong (rubbed into skin till dry). Unfortunately, I no longer have insurance so I can't really get the Androgel. I was on it for a total of about 4-5 months. Also, I have no libido, occasional bouts of ED (had cialis for that and still happened a couple times), and I am very tired all the time. I definitely have problems sleeping (tried Ambien but it worked one night then after no go and I woke up loopy).
I want to try the natty way to help me with all my issues. My diet is good and I have been losing weight progressively but no change in the above (I went from 217 lbs to 190 lbs now)...still have a little bit of a belly (waist is 35" and I am 5' 11"). I've done tons of research and I am more confused than ever.
For libido I the following may benefit: (correct me if wrong)
Goji berry for ED benefit
Horny Goat Weed
...just to name a few
I've read that HGH boosters help as well and are good for sleep.
I'm having the damndest time putting something to gether that may fit my needs and I'm asking the great community here for some very needed help.
I know I'm missing some things as well.
If you need anymore details I will be happy to provide them and thank you all for any help you can give me.
- 06-18-2013, 10:04 PM
Erase pro. D-Pol, And Endosurge Turbo. no more no less! can't go wrong with that stack for your needs.
you may also pop in some Forskolin though .
- 06-18-2013, 10:06 PM
Considering your situation, I would use Intimidate DAA - you take it before bed and I found it worked great as a test booster (libido etc..) and even better for a deep sleep (many other reviews will a test to this). Maximum of 8 weeks and then a 4 week break. During the break and if your sleep starts to waver, you could use as GH booster product like Rem 8.0, HGH up, iForce liGHts out and others like Finaflex G8 or IGF 2.
06-18-2013, 10:08 PM
For libido- Trib is cheap and effective. I would add in DAA(which is also inexpensive). PCT Assist Is another product that could benefit you- especially with lethargy
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06-18-2013, 10:36 PM
06-19-2013, 05:23 AM
Well test levels of 200 is low, which you know but i'm not sure if DAA based products will help in this reagrd. Testosterone can be increased through many paths and also can be lowered due to many reasons.
DAA works through the stAR mechanism (which functional loss of will cause Low T) and therefore may not increase your testosterone levels. Its cheap enough that it is worth a shot, but the TRT option should be considered for any dramatic changes in test levels.
Tribulus is also cheap and works well for libido and Macuna containing products may also help you with other issues.
For sleep, try melatonin and ZMA (also macuna will work).
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06-19-2013, 06:34 AM
06-19-2013, 06:52 AM
would be helpful to see other tests... in particular LH, e2 etc
USP Test Powder for 4 weeks then more blood tests to check progress
The viagra might help if taken every day. A recent clinical trial has shown improved TT and FT with longer term use. > talk to your md about this tho
06-19-2013, 08:19 AM
I wish I could talk to the DR about this, but I have no insurance right now sadly. That's why I asked and have been doing research into different methods to try and get myself back to a somewhat normal lifestyle. Please keep the info coming guys, I really appreciate it.
06-19-2013, 09:34 AM
test cyp 200mg x 10ml for $60. Even If you do 200mg a week which is a high dose for TRT that's 10 weeks for $60. Most doctors only have you checked every 6 months and if you explain your situation most will work with you.
06-19-2013, 10:10 AM
This is a long post - if you want the summary:
Look into Chlomid - seriously. If your balls and pituatary are still capable of working properly - Chlomid can dramatically raise testosterone levels with minimal side effects if the dose rate is kept low. Research seems to indicate it is safe for long term use at low dose rates.
I am a 53 yr old male - who had simlar problems. Low testosterone - did the full gamet of testing- no observable problems with LH FSH thyroid etc. I could write for hours about this - but spent about a year and a half trying many of the products sold on fitness websites to increase test (Tribulus, longjack, DAA, Fenugreek, Forskoli etc) with no substantial effect. I can post labs over several years if one is interested.
In late December 2012, I recieved some generic chlomid from an online pharmacy - the first two I tried never delivered - the third one did and has subsequently been very reliable. Generic Chlomid is cheaper to take than any of the supplements listed above. In just six weeks, my total, free and bioavailable testosterone went up by over 70 %, taking 25 mg chlomid every other day.
Here were my thoughts on the results ( copying this from another bulletin board I posted on)
1) Pituitary seems to be working as the chlomid drove up LH and FH
2) Balls seem to be working as Testosterone and Free Testosterone went up 70 %
3) Estrogen getting pretty high
4) Thyroid is OK - actually getting better as tests proceed (added iodized salt back into diet and taking thyroid glandular)
5) Sudden sharp drop in AM cortisol is disconcerting - wonder if it was side effect of chlomid
I increased the dose of chlomid to 25 mg every day - and retested in April. HEre is what I posted on other log. Big thing is my Testosterone was up to top of reference range and Bio-available had increased dramatically.
Just a brief update - been on Chlomid for over three months now. Somethings going very well - others need a bit of work yet. I have been avoiding adding an anti-aromatase but looks like I may not be able to get around it. Recent labs
Cortisol 688 (range 200- 690 nmol/L)
Way better than last test result - may have been an anomaly as is consistent with previous test from December.
Total Testosterone 28.3 (range 8.0 - 29.0 nmol/L) Well can't complain
Estradiol 184 (range 0 - 160 pmol/L ) This one I need to work on yet
Progesterone 3.7 (range 0 - 3.0 nmol/L)
Free Testosterone 451 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L) More than double the numbers I used to get
SHBG 60 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L) would love to see this down - but maybe because of high estrogen so anti-aromatase?
DHEA-S 8.4 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
BioAvail Testosterone 9.2 (range 4.0 to 16.0) NICE- was below reference range in October
Both Bio Avail and Free Testosterone will of course improve if I can get SHBG down.
Here is a major problem - first time ever tested for Vit D and I take about 3000 IUs daily
Vitamin D 80.5 (range 80 - 200)
Maybe I am a poor absorber - have added a second source (pills in the morning - liquid Vit D in evening ) and taking 6-7000 IU and am going to see how it goes.
All in all - I am very pleased with being on Chlomid. I upped my dose in February from 25 mg EOD to 25 mg daily. I am going to cut back to 25 EOD again and see where I stabilize - figuring the lower dose rate will reduce side effects. Going to try some natural anti-aromatase first before trying other approaches.
I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable. So far - the experiment for me has been a success - your mileage may vary. I figure for a 53 yr old guy to get his total T up to 800 with just a SERM is pretty good results.
The high estrogen numbers and fact I had hit the top of scale on Total T made me cut back the chlomid again - so since that time I have been taking 25 mg on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I have added in 2 pills daily of PES Erase to try to lower estrogen for the last 3-4 weeks. I feel great and have the best morning erections I have had for years - which is usually a good sign that testosterone and estrogen are in balance. I am going to see my doctor and get more bloodwork done in about 10 days.
There are a number of good studies online about Chlomid and long term use in Men for low testosterone - learn to use pubmed is well worth it. Anyways - here is info from one - Title says it all.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.
To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. No adverse events were reported by any patients.
Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.
06-19-2013, 10:52 AM
haritec and 89coupe...that is some really good information and I appreciate it very much. It seems that I may have to bite the bullet and just pay out of pocket. Maybe I should pay the $300 and go to privatemedlabs and just get the tests done. Then at least I have the results and then figure out how to get Rx/Doctor...I will have insurance again in about a month (I'm in one of those 90 day probation periods with a new employer).
What can I do about my sleep issues that stated in the original post? I will NOT go down the prescription again for that since I had such a bad time before with that.
06-19-2013, 11:04 AM
06-19-2013, 11:14 AM
Fixing your testosterone issues may help your sleep - it has been shown to do so.
Minimizing caffeine helps.
Following a regular sleep schedule (same time to bed and to rise 7 days a week) helps
Get your biological clock in order - make sure room pitch black when you sleep, ear plugs if necessary, eye cover if necessary - get in sunlight first thing in the morning.
Take melatonin at night.
L-Dopa has been shown to help as a natural supplement.
Meditation / Yoga Nidra before bed to relax the mind
If you want to to pay the cash - spend $200 on a Zeo Sleep Monitor - they have a whole program for free to improve your sleep quality.
Rather than PES Erase - consider this product - AD-3 PCT from Nutraplanet (currently onsale for $30) Has same active ingredient as PES Erase - plus L-Dopa plush Milk Thistle for liver support. BUT - you don't know if you have an estrogen problem so watch out for dry joints etc - or wait and try this with Chlomid - Chlomid will increase estrogen. BTW - I got 100 50 mg tabs of Chlomid for like $70. Since I am now taking 1/2 tablet on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays - that is over a year supply.
06-19-2013, 11:15 AM
Never found an HGH supp that worked. Best thing for HGH in my opinion
06-19-2013, 11:26 AM
06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
Can't taking Melatonin ED screw you up sleep wise? Oh, the comment about the HGH stuff was just for sleep not necessarily about increasing HGH. Btw, I take in zero caffeine...no coffee, tea, or soda. Room is blacked out, only sound is a fan so I don't here stuff from outside. Go to bed about the same time ED. I get out of bed (notice I said out of bed and not awake) at around 6:40 AM. I do not get to spend much time in sunlight as my job is IT and I am indoors all day. I will hold off on any supplements for Test/Estrogen till I get labs. I'm just being impatient, tired of being tired of being tired and having a not so great mental state of being for so long. I'm willing to try anything supplement wise for the sleep and better well being. I'm willing to bet that I have vitamin and mineral deficiencies since all I take ED is a Centrum Silver. My meals are as follows (if this helps): Breakfast is 3 eggs (was 1 yolk, rest whites, today started with 3 eggs with yolks) just started having bacon with this for some fats, and a very small bowl of multi-grain cereal with lactose free milk (probably should do whole milk)...10AM some almonds...lunch is several slices of turkey on one slice of multi-grain bread with a red leaf lettuce salad and some vinagrette and some walnuts/cashews...3PM some more almonds...6PM dinner is usually chicken breast or fish (mostly chicken breast) with a green veggie and some more walnuts/cashews...I have removed rice and starchy stuff from dinners recently.
06-19-2013, 12:05 PM
06-19-2013, 12:15 PM
Sounds like you are doing most of the right things right. Diet looks pretty damn good and clean.
I feel for you brother - I started on the search for why I didn't feel so great at about the same age and it was a frustrating process and lots of so-called professionals were not much help. Still not where I want to be - but hormone numbers are better at least.
Some thoughts - could you force yourself to get up a bit earlier and squeeze in a short morning run or bike ride outside ? I TRY to do this - fail often - but when I can it seems to help to energize me for the morning - and make sure I am tired enough at night to get to sleep quickly.
Best of luck on your journey - you are on the right path.
06-19-2013, 12:27 PM
Intimidate or SNS DAA?
Coop states the differences in this thread.
06-19-2013, 02:06 PM
I don't have a problem falling asleep normally. I tend to wake up during the night a couple times and then always before my alarm goes off. I even cover my clock so when I awake during the night and before alarm, I don't see what time it is. Also, when I have these wake-ups, I tend to feel like I'm hot (temperature wise). I go to bed well before the 8 hour window and still never get 8...I would guess somewhere between 5-7 hours. I don't have sleep apnea either.
Any ideas of what might help this?
06-19-2013, 02:50 PM
Well - I think others have said it already - but you probably should get a full hormone panel done. I don't have enough posts or reputation or whatever, so I can't seem to post a link. However if you google LEF Male Hormone Panel - you can get a link to how to get one done for $300 but you will have to find someone to take the blood sample. Not cheap - but an extremely comprehensive test.
Body temperature issues and fluctuations can come from a lot of things, Adrenal issues, Thyroid issues, infection etc. I know if I have been trying to gain some weight so eating extra calories daily - my metabolisom goes up and I am hot as hell at night.
Get a good thermometer and google adrenal body temperature. There is a test you can do yourself just with a thermometer to get a crude evaluation of whether you have some degree of adrenal fatigue. Also, a blood or saliva test for cortisol can tell a lot - especially the saliva test that can be ordered online - but it will cost a few bucks. Again - google for saliva hormone test or check out ZRTLAB.COM
I have real issues sleeping in a warm bed - causes problems on the home front as I prefer to sleep in the basement where it is cold rather than with sig other. Seems to have gotten worse as I got older.
Thyroid issues are another one that are know to cause body temperature issues. If you use no iodized salt you may be low in iodine which can cause thyroid issues. My thyroid numbers seemed to get better after I dumped the all natural salt my wife was buying and got some good old fashioned iodized salt.
Vitamin D is key as well - get in the sunlight as much as you possibly can and take a D Supplement. Almost all north americans are low in Vitamin D. Vitamin D is very important for both Testosterone and Thyroid funciton.
Both adrenal and thyroid issues can compound testosterone issues so it is good to look into these possiblities as well. Trust me - I know how hard this is cause even if you have medical coverage - the doctors look at you like there is nothing "wrong" with you and so no need to test. I was very lucky to find a guy who is really into testing and although he hasn't gotten me on to the supplements that really helped - I could explore and find some things of my own that helped and see the results in blood tests.
Speaking of wives - stress is one of the worse things for your hormones. Already sounds like you have job stress - carefully assess other stress sources in your life and see which you can reduce or deal with better. Weightlifting for me is good - I forget about my stress while lifting and it raises some good hormones.
06-19-2013, 03:16 PM
Yup I plan on getting a full panel done once my insurance kicks in (right a round a month away). I think the primary thing I need to tackle is getting more rest. My job isn't really stressful believe it or not..I have a knack for solving IT problems fairly quickly so I don't get to bothered by stuff at the job. So I think I will get some ZMA or something along those lines to help and maybe some melatonin (will research more).
06-19-2013, 06:57 PM
06-19-2013, 07:04 PM
Well melatonin is good for sleep issues. People tend to avoid it because it is a hormone produced by the body and they fear that supplementing with it may cause downregulation of their own production, but it can be useful:
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06-19-2013, 10:14 PM
jiigzz...some things that stood out in that article:
"Melatonin used in excessive doses can lead to receptor desensitization and exacerbate the condition that is being treated."
"Melatonin may cause minor transient adverse effects such as headache, insomnia, rash, upset stomach, and nightmares"...Insomnia!!
Short-term use (up to 13 weeks)...so what do I do after this...I don't want to go "backwards" so to speak and not be able to sleep good again.
So you suggest just melatonin or some other things as well? Please let me know.
06-19-2013, 10:24 PM
06-19-2013, 10:39 PM
06-19-2013, 10:55 PM
06-20-2013, 09:27 AM
If you're worried about it start with the lowest possible dose. You can try to extrapolate what may or may not happen to you from studies all day long but the bottom line is until you personally try out you'll never know. Melatonin has data showing no dependency issues, no negative issues or side effects at normal dosages. OTOH there are also studies showing it to have no effect whatsoever...
It's good to be aware by reading up on studies but there are so many variables to consider that you'll more than likely stir yourself into a frenzy. Everything in the environment that surrounds you has a study that shows it having negative effects on humans.
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