Gainers vs solid food

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    Flawed and irrelevant are two different things.
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    i am with Valdez on the use of the GI rating system. It's a base line for carbs, of course its not perfect but it can hlep a lot people. Currently I have a few clients with Diabetes adn the GI chart is great to help them with knowing carbs.

    I think both low and high GI carbs have a place in a diet. As most athletes would agree.

    To answer the original question though: Real Food vs Mass Gainer

    my thoughts are this, if you are a hard gainer you probably have a hard time taking in enough cals through solid food to maximize your gains. Thats why you use weight gainer and custom gainers. They are easy fast and you can add two a day with minimum effort or cost.

    Customizing with PB,Oats, Fruit, and other items is a good thing.
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    Oohh i wanna weigh in. The G.I system is relevant, but only so when products are consumed indepedently but the 'rule' changes once you incorporate other foods (such as a protein or fat) which reduce the G.I load. Thus what was once a high G.I can actually have a low G.I. load which will impact blood sugar in a much different manner.

    Its not so much 'flawed', as it does hold weighting when foods are consumed independent of others but it should be noted that the G.I. load decreases once you incorporate fats or proteins.
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    I can't answer your question, but up your mass IMO is one of the better gainers out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    The biggest noticed difference was in endurance athletes. And obviously the presence of other macros have an effect on glucose response. That article doesn't take away from using the GI as a general guide line on how different carbs will respond.

    - Valdez
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Oohh i wanna weigh in. The G.I system is relevant, but only so when products are consumed indepedently but the 'rule' changes once you incorporate other foods (such as a protein or fat) which reduce the G.I load. Thus what was once a high G.I can actually have a low G.I. load which will impact blood sugar in a much different manner.

    Its not so much 'flawed', as it does hold weighting when foods are consumed independent of others but it should be noted that the G.I. load decreases once you incorporate fats or proteins.
    Right which was noted, up there ^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post

    I don't suck up to anyone here, never have, unlike the way you gained the little bit of notoriety you have through ass kissing of the RB's that can't stand you anymore. My reason for my being "upfront with my attitude" is because I don't have time for your non-sense and to be honest, I have zero idea how you're even a rep. Your business practices, general regards to people and condescending attitude do nothing positive. If you truly care about SNS, quit.

    I'm not admitting I was wrong because there is no one TRUTH to nutrition. How about this you grab a sandwich and read a book instead of reading threads on an internet forum, then form your own opinion instead of dry humping everyone's opinion you think you can hide behind.

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    Lol this post was professional and mature. Anyhow, in a little different stroke. Do you consider the carb source relevant Valdez? And also meal frequency and timing?

    Just spiking discussion fire mate ;p you have to learn to take things calm, I am neither offending you or taking anything you say to matter unless it is about the subject .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Lol this post was professional and mature. Anyhow, in a little different stroke. Do you consider the carb source relevant Valdez? And also meal frequency and timing?

    Just spiking discussion fire mate ;p you have to learn to take things calm, I am neither offending you or taking anything you say to matter unless it is about the subject .
    IMO meal timing has its place wrt pre + post meals. Not so much for energy as for activation of certain enzymes and preventing/ limiting protein degradation post w/o.

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    Gainers and solid foods ftw! Problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randoja View Post
    Flawed and irrelevant are two different things.
    Yep. Unfortunately its utility is highly limited due to its flaws. It's a nice idea, it just didnt pan out.


    Claiming that bodybuilders use it is hilarious. Bodybuilders also use glutamine. Correlation does not imply causation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3ACTION View Post
    I've seen smaller and stronger women but she is indeed magnificent . How's the fat loss coming along? Good?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    I've seen smaller and stronger women but she is indeed magnificent . How's the fat loss coming along? Good?
    Meh, could be better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3ACTION View Post

    Meh, could be better.
    As long as it progressing! Keep it up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    This is irrelevant. Aragon trains Olympians and professional athletes as well as bodybuilders. But Im no longer willing to continue this debate. Do what works for you
    In for Aragon's scientific studies on High GI/Low GI and effect on blood glucose levels in peer reviewed journals.

    otherwise...................

    experience and anecdotal observation does not equal scientific evidence, otherwise we'd still think the world is flat and the Sun revolves around it.

    I'll let you dig up those links
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    Well this thread had become very UN helpful to the op.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    In for Aragon's scientific studies on High GI/Low GI and effect on blood glucose levels in peer reviewed journals.

    otherwise...................

    experience and anecdotal observation does not equal scientific evidence, otherwise we'd still think the world is flat and the Sun revolves around it.

    I'll let you dig up those links

    This would be great, assuming that there is any shred of proof that the GI works in a diet better than something else.

    Hint: this study doesnt exist


    You could easily look up work by other leading researchers in the nutrition field. Lyle McDonald has also written articles about all of the flaws with the GI.
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    Straight from the Mayo Clinic: "The glycemic index doesn't rank foods according to how healthy they actually are. Indeed, some foods with the preferred lower GI ranking may, in fact, be less healthy because they contain large amounts of calories, sugar or saturated fat, especially packaged and processed foods. Both potato chips and ice cream, for instance, have a lower glycemic index ranking than do baked potatoes, even though baked potatoes are generally considered healthier. So while lower GI items may help blood sugar balance in those that have uncontrolled diets, choosing them indiscriminately could lead to other health problems.

    Other concerns
    One major concern with the glycemic index is that it ranks foods in isolation. But in reality, how your body absorbs and handles carbs depends on many factors, including how much you eat; how the food is ripened, processed or prepared; the time of day it's eaten; other foods you eat it with; and health conditions you may have, such as diabetes. So the glycemic index may not give an accurate picture of how one particular food affects your blood sugar. Glycemic load is a related concept that scores a food product based on both carb content and portion size. But the larger the portion size, the greater the calories consumed whether the glycemic index is high or low.
    It also can be difficult to follow a glycemic index diet on your own. For one thing, most foods aren't ranked by glycemic index. Packaged foods don't generally list their GI rank on the label, and it can be hard to estimate what it might be. And for some types of food, the glycemic index database has multiple entries — you may not be sure which entry is accurate."






    Does GI work if you have been eating garbage up until that point? Sure, any diet pretty much does. Does this mean it is a great dietary guideline? Not necessarily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    This would be great, assuming that there is any shred of proof that the GI works in a diet better than something else.

    Hint: this study doesnt exist


    You could easily look up work by other leading researchers in the nutrition field. Lyle McDonald has also written articles about all of the flaws with the GI.
    which is exactly why your claim that GI=BS is flawed. lol. you are relying on anecdotal evidence to refute anecdotal evidence. wtf ever happened to different strokes for different folks, or your mileage may vary? Guys like you get on a power(cage) trip and claim that YOUR view of things which you heard from so-and-so is the only true way even though you have no shred of solid evidence to back it up.

    The point is, there are many points of view, and many different things work for many different people. You can't just go around shooting your mouth off like what you do and what you say is the gospel. thats what they do on bb.com, not here
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    which is exactly why your claim that GI=BS is flawed. lol. you are relying on anecdotal evidence to refute anecdotal evidence. wtf ever happened to different strokes for different folks, or your mileage may vary? Guys like you get on a power(cage) trip and claim that YOUR view of things which you heard from so-and-so is the only true way even though you have no shred of solid evidence to back it up.

    The point is, there are many points of view, and many different things work for many different people. You can't just go around shooting your mouth off like what you do and what you say is the gospel. thats what they do on bb.com, not here
    Do not think this board is without fault either. Fact remains, there was flawed methodology in determining the GI. There have been more recent studies that prove there were quite a few more factors that needed to be considered prior to formulation. You are more than welcome to look them up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Straight from the Mayo Clinic: "The glycemic index doesn't rank foods according to how healthy they actually are. Indeed, some foods with the preferred lower GI ranking may, in fact, be less healthy because they contain large amounts of calories, sugar or saturated fat, especially packaged and processed foods. Both potato chips and ice cream, for instance, have a lower glycemic index ranking than do baked potatoes, even though baked potatoes are generally considered healthier. So while lower GI items may help blood sugar balance in those that have uncontrolled diets, choosing them indiscriminately could lead to other health problems.

    Other concerns
    One major concern with the glycemic index is that it ranks foods in isolation. But in reality, how your body absorbs and handles carbs depends on many factors, including how much you eat; how the food is ripened, processed or prepared; the time of day it's eaten; other foods you eat it with; and health conditions you may have, such as diabetes. So the glycemic index may not give an accurate picture of how one particular food affects your blood sugar. Glycemic load is a related concept that scores a food product based on both carb content and portion size. But the larger the portion size, the greater the calories consumed whether the glycemic index is high or low.
    It also can be difficult to follow a glycemic index diet on your own. For one thing, most foods aren't ranked by glycemic index. Packaged foods don't generally list their GI rank on the label, and it can be hard to estimate what it might be. And for some types of food, the glycemic index database has multiple entries — you may not be sure which entry is accurate."






    Does GI work if you have been eating garbage up until that point? Sure, any diet pretty much does. Does this mean it is a great dietary guideline? Not necessarily.
    I never recommended it as a sole source of dietary decision making. Obviously caloric content and overall food quantity are important as well, however THAT is the first principle of diet, far from fine tuning details.

    Since we're speaking of anecdotal experience, if I eat:

    barley, spinach, salad, sweet potatoes, apples, etc in WHOLE form (not blended, mashed or processed) with all fiber and skin in tact I will feel fuller longer than I would if I ate the same calories in:

    ice cream, milk, apple sauce, mashed potatos, candy, processed cereal grains, juice, soda, etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    I never recommended it as a sole source of dietary decision making. Obviously caloric content and overall food quantity are important as well, however THAT is the first principle of diet, far from fine tuning details.

    Since we're speaking of anecdotal experience, if I eat:

    barley, spinach, salad, sweet potatoes, apples, etc in WHOLE form (not blended, mashed or processed) with all fiber and skin in tact I will feel fuller longer than I would if I ate the same calories in:

    ice cream, milk, apple sauce, mashed potatos, candy, processed cereal grains, juice, soda, etc
    I agree, fiber aids in satiation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    which is exactly why your claim that GI=BS is flawed. lol. you are relying on anecdotal evidence

    1) Schenk S, et al. Different glycemic indexes of breakfast cereals are not due to glucose entry into blood but to glucose removal by tissue. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;78(4):742-8.
    2) Pi-Sunyer FX. Glycemic index and disease. Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Jul;76(1):290S-8S.
    3) Kiens B, Richter EA. Types of carbohydrate in an ordinary diet affect insulin action and muscle substrates in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1996;63:47-53.
    4) Holt SH, Miller JC. A satiety index of common foods. Eur J Clin Nutr 1995 Sep;49(9):675-90.
    5) Ostman EM, et al. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. Am J Clin Nutr 2001; 74(1):96-100.
    6) Collier G, et al. The effect of coingestion of fat on the glucose, insulin, and gastric inhibitory polypeptide responses to carbohydrate and protein. Am J Clin Nutr 1983;37(6):941-4.
    7) Collier G, et al. The acute effect of fat on insulin secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988;66(2):323-6.
    8) Rasmussen O, et al. Differential effects of saturated and monounsaturated fat on blood glucose and insulin responses in subjects with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Am J Clin Nutr 1996 Feb;63(2):249-53.
    9) Joannic JL, et al. How the degree of unsaturation of dietary fatty acids influences the glucose and insulin responses to different carbohydrates in mixed meals. Am J Clin Nutr 1997 May;65(5):1427-33.
    10) Robertson MD, et al. Acute effects of meal fatty acid composition on insulin sensitivity in healthy post-menopausal women. Br J Nutr 2002;88(6):635-40.
    11) Gannon MC, et al. Metabolic response to cottage cheese or egg white protein, with or without glucose, in type II diabetic subjects. Metabolism 1992;41(10):1137-45.
    12) van Loon LJ, et al. Plasma insulin responses after ingestion of different amino acid or protein mixtures with carbohydrate. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72(1):96-105.
    13) Raben A. Should obese patients be counselled to follow a low-glycaemic index diet? No. Obes Rev. 2002 Nov;3(4):245-56.
    14) Raatz SK, et al. Reduced glycemic index and glycemic load diets do not increase the effects of energy restriction on weight loss and insulin sensitivity in obese men and women. J Nutr. 2005 Oct;135(10):2387-91.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post

    I agree, fiber aids in satiation.
    And fiber does not typically abound in high GI foods
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post

    1) Schenk S, et al. Different glycemic indexes of breakfast cereals are not due to glucose entry into blood but to glucose removal by tissue. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;78(4):742-8.
    2) Pi-Sunyer FX. Glycemic index and disease. Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Jul;76(1):290S-8S.
    3) Kiens B, Richter EA. Types of carbohydrate in an ordinary diet affect insulin action and muscle substrates in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1996;63:47-53.
    4) Holt SH, Miller JC. A satiety index of common foods. Eur J Clin Nutr 1995 Sep;49(9):675-90.
    5) Ostman EM, et al. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. Am J Clin Nutr 2001; 74(1):96-100.
    6) Collier G, et al. The effect of coingestion of fat on the glucose, insulin, and gastric inhibitory polypeptide responses to carbohydrate and protein. Am J Clin Nutr 1983;37(6):941-4.
    7) Collier G, et al. The acute effect of fat on insulin secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988;66(2):323-6.
    8) Rasmussen O, et al. Differential effects of saturated and monounsaturated fat on blood glucose and insulin responses in subjects with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Am J Clin Nutr 1996 Feb;63(2):249-53.
    9) Joannic JL, et al. How the degree of unsaturation of dietary fatty acids influences the glucose and insulin responses to different carbohydrates in mixed meals. Am J Clin Nutr 1997 May;65(5):1427-33.
    10) Robertson MD, et al. Acute effects of meal fatty acid composition on insulin sensitivity in healthy post-menopausal women. Br J Nutr 2002;88(6):635-40.
    11) Gannon MC, et al. Metabolic response to cottage cheese or egg white protein, with or without glucose, in type II diabetic subjects. Metabolism 1992;41(10):1137-45.
    12) van Loon LJ, et al. Plasma insulin responses after ingestion of different amino acid or protein mixtures with carbohydrate. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72(1):96-105.
    13) Raben A. Should obese patients be counselled to follow a low-glycaemic index diet? No. Obes Rev. 2002 Nov;3(4):245-56.
    14) Raatz SK, et al. Reduced glycemic index and glycemic load diets do not increase the effects of energy restriction on weight loss and insulin sensitivity in obese men and women. J Nutr. 2005 Oct;135(10):2387-91.
    The majority of these are totally off topic
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    The majority of these are totally off topic


    lol, no they arent. Not if you understand how the GI was formulated.
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    The hell is going on in this thread. I feel sorry for the OP who was just looking for an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    The point is, there are many points of view, and many different things work for many different people. You can't just go around shooting your mouth off like what you do and what you say is the gospel. thats what they do on bb.com, not here
    Honestly you just come off as a dick posting this. PC has been very calm and the only one really posting sources/links yet you are going to say this when you are doing exactly what you are eluding he is doing? I am surprised PC is even still responding based on the reactions people are taking towards him and I hope that responses like this won't push him away from contributing more over here. I don't see why bringing up another site is even warranted in this discussion and doesn't back the attitude of AM that you are trying to show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    The majority of these are totally off topic
    i'm going to try to read through some of these later when I have some time
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    The hell is going on in this thread. I feel sorry for the OP who was just looking for an answer.



    Honestly you just come off as a dick posting this. PC has been very calm and the only one really posting sources/links yet you are going to say this when you are doing exactly what you are eluding he is doing? I am surprised PC is even still responding based on the reactions people are taking towards him and I hope that responses like this won't push him away from contributing more over here. I don't see why bringing up another site is even warranted in this discussion and doesn't back the attitude of AM that you are trying to show.
    i'm sorry but pi$$ing on one type of diet practice or belief system by promoting an alternative idea that is equally unproven is somewhat ridiculous. It's like a religion war until there is some kind of hard, incontrovertible scientific evidence one way or another.

    but anyway, i'll stop
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    Ok guys, OP here. First off I had no clue I would get this kind of response! This is awesome, I have been checking in reading what some of the more experienced guys have been posting. Much of this information about gl I haven't paid attention to in the past, or even meal timing as of recently! There are some real good guys to get knowledge from here.

    Some of the changes I have made are using karbolic (supplement has been sitting in pantry for months) post workout on my way home right before my protein shake. Then as usual ill eat a 8-10 oz mean/2 cup of rice meal. I have tried to keep the shakes to minimum but honestly with me eating 4,000+ calories (without shakes) I figured one in the immediate morning, one post workout and one immediately before bed wouldn't hurt me. My shake post workout I typically use a non gainer low carb protein because I usually eat a meal 45-1hr later. I also drink karbolic as I'm literally driving home from gym. One thing I catch myself mixing up is using a gainer or not first thing when I wake up. I like to have a shake literally within minutes of awaking. Sometimes gainer sometimes not. What is best immediately that soon after awaking. Either way on my way to work ill be eating eggs and some Ezekiel toast or if I don't have toast ill have Ezekiel cereal before work. At night time before bed is when I usually make my biggest shake ice/whole milk/2scoopcasein/2 scoop gainer/oats/pb/maybe cocoanut oil. I know everyone's body is going to respond differently but am I on the right track.

    This thread has educated me even further and I appreciate everyone's input! I am now doing my own research as well on this subject since I was completely uneducated before this on this subject.

    Now, for 6 months or so I have not seen myself on the scale at more than 215lbs. Last night with a stomach full I weighed in 220lbs. I am eating an obscene amount of food that I am not used to. But I've learned for my body I have to work or eat twice as hard as some others. So much to where its unpleasant. Makes me feel sick, and I won't get into how many times I sh** a day! This morning I weighed 217.6 lbs right when I woke up. I'd sat I'm up about 3 lbs this week and I give credit to some of the changes I mentioned above and not to mention some of these awesome members we have on this thread!

    I will stay tuned for knowledge but wanted to thank you guys on this thread who have opened my eyes to this subject!
    Thank you again all!
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    Quote Originally Posted by IFBBound View Post
    Ok guys, OP here. First off I had no clue I would get this kind of response! This is awesome, I have been checking in reading what some of the more experienced guys have been posting. Much of this information about gl I haven't paid attention to in the past, or even meal timing as of recently! There are some real good guys to get knowledge from here.

    Some of the changes I have made are using karbolic (supplement has been sitting in pantry for months) post workout on my way home right before my protein shake. Then as usual ill eat a 8-10 oz mean/2 cup of rice meal. I have tried to keep the shakes to minimum but honestly with me eating 4,000+ calories (without shakes) I figured one in the immediate morning, one post workout and one immediately before bed wouldn't hurt me. My shake post workout I typically use a non gainer low carb protein because I usually eat a meal 45-1hr later. I also drink karbolic as I'm literally driving home from gym. One thing I catch myself mixing up is using a gainer or not first thing when I wake up. I like to have a shake literally within minutes of awaking. Sometimes gainer sometimes not. What is best immediately that soon after awaking. Either way on my way to work ill be eating eggs and some Ezekiel toast or if I don't have toast ill have Ezekiel cereal before work. At night time before bed is when I usually make my biggest shake ice/whole milk/2scoopcasein/2 scoop gainer/oats/pb/maybe cocoanut oil. I know everyone's body is going to respond differently but am I on the right track.

    This thread has educated me even further and I appreciate everyone's input! I am now doing my own research as well on this subject since I was completely uneducated before this on this subject.

    Now, for 6 months or so I have not seen myself on the scale at more than 215lbs. Last night with a stomach full I weighed in 220lbs. I am eating an obscene amount of food that I am not used to. But I've learned for my body I have to work or eat twice as hard as some others. So much to where its unpleasant. Makes me feel sick, and I won't get into how many times I sh** a day! This morning I weighed 217.6 lbs right when I woke up. I'd sat I'm up about 3 lbs this week and I give credit to some of the changes I mentioned above and not to mention some of these awesome members we have on this thread!

    I will stay tuned for knowledge but wanted to thank you guys on this thread who have opened my eyes to this subject!
    Thank you again all!
    Glad I could help.
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    Why are u here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IFBBound View Post
    Why are u here?
    Moral support.
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    Glad to see powercage adding to the forum.

    Great thread idea OP :clap:

    In for more of the discussion.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3ACTION View Post

    Oral support.
    This thread needs to be lightened up. Fixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post

    This thread needs to be lightened up. Fixed
    Bonus!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    i'm sorry but pi$$ing on one type of diet practice or belief system by promoting an alternative idea that is equally unproven is somewhat ridiculous.
    There was no promoting an alternative diet. I do believe the whole nutrient timing idea is being altered by actual science tho. Which gives some credence to some IIFYM ideals. As I stated before, IIFYM has flaws itself. Just not as blatant as the GI.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Glad to see powercage adding to the forum.
    How are you doing sir?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post

    There was no pushing an alternative diet. I do believe the whole nutrient timing idea is being slowly altered by actual science tho. Which gives some credence to some IIFYM ideals.

    I help those that are willing to learn
    Yeah, I can respect that it gives it some credence, particularly in the off-season. Point made
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