Help with massive cut/recomp/fatburn stack?
- 03-23-2013, 10:10 PM
Help with massive cut/recomp/fatburn stack?
So I'm looking at including one supp from each of the following categories and let me know if i am missing any other supplement categories that could make the stack even better, there is no limits to this stack (just once I want to do a beast stack, yeah I know a mass gaining beast stack would be more fun, but I need the abs out dammit!) The aim of the stack is to make burning stubborn fat as easy as possible, and if I can make gains as well then sweet. help me pick the best stack! My diet will be 60% protein 20% carbs 20% fats (carbs really throw off my fat burning). And I will do a carb refeed day every 3 days. Training will be 16 hour fasted.
PWO: for sure
Fatburner w/stim: for sure
Fatburner wo/stim: , , or others?
Estrogen control: , , or something else?
Cortisol control: , Anabolic xtreme, , /DHEA, Vit C or something else?
Test booster: , DAA, , or something else?
Anabolic shiz: , or something else?
GDA: v2 or will it even help much?
I know you guys know of a lot of other supps that could help so throw em out here.
- 03-23-2013, 10:17 PM
I've ran this before with amazing results: Alphamine + Erase/Erase Pro + Anabeta Elite. Test Powder would be a great addition from reviews and if not TP then SNS DAA would be great to add also. For non-stim I would look into adding DCP or TTA and/or Green Coffee Bean Extract. These two will go great with Alphamine. For a GDA, SSv2 is a nice choice or Recompadrol is another one I would look into.
With all the above, you would have a very effective cutting stack but so much more then just that.
Edit: with Erase/Erase Pro you get an estrogen and cortisol control.PES Representativehttp://www.pescience.com/insiderhttp://www.selectprotein.com
- 03-24-2013, 08:59 AM
That is a lot of categories and I wouldn't stack THAT many products, but luckily you can find products that overlap in multiple ways so that would save you some trouble.
With the ones mentioned I am going to assume you have/or can find them and would personally go:
-Alphamine, Enhanced, DCP, Erase, AnaBeta Elite (covers test boosting, additional recomp effects with Forskolin addition and controls cortisol as well), and Slin-Sanev2.
Here is a link to my review (with dosing, etc) of a very similar stack with layout how I went about it for 12 weeks. It was also done with a IF approach. I don't prefer to use that many products at once but can't argue with how effective it was when I did: Recomp/Cut results fueled by PES/SNS/GenomyxPES Representative
Don't miss out on the next deal:http://pescience.com/insider
Protein Backed by Science: http://selectprotein.com
03-24-2013, 03:10 PM
I just read through your review bolt. I tried looking for it a while ago but could never find it. I must say one word... Wow . Crazy gains and shredded. Vascularity is insane also.
03-24-2013, 09:33 PM
thanks bolt your log is great, and its funny as you mention lyle mcdonalds stubborn fat protocol, which I had just finished reading and inspired me to start this cut, heh.
Decided on- Enhanced, Alphamine, DCP, Erase Pro, Anabeta Elite, DAA, Slin Sane v2 and gonna use some phosphatidyl serine as well just in case :P should have cortisol well under control with at least 3 pathways blocking it hah, just gotta pray my joints hold up, then again it probably wont be as bad as epi >.<
03-24-2013, 09:34 PM
Nice stack you are going to have. Going to log it? I would follow for sure.
03-24-2013, 09:51 PM
I have to say add Ana beta elite in there. I swear has to be the best stuff ever. At first I was like "****ING PES THIS STUFF BLOWS" and the. On the 7th day.... "PES I love you guys :]." Just body composition tweaks from the ABE is awesome . Add alphamine and erase to dry and lean out.
Edit- just saw your final stack good stuff
03-24-2013, 09:56 PM
03-24-2013, 09:57 PM
03-24-2013, 10:04 PM
03-24-2013, 10:11 PM
03-24-2013, 10:13 PM
03-24-2013, 10:31 PM
I'm also thinking of adding compound 20, overkill i know. but get this, yesterday i did a dark choc binge (literally 2 blocks) after a fast, and i swear (its obvious really) I ended up more lean today in comparison to a regular restricted diet day (i'm taking cortisol supps atm aswell, endo amp. RIP PP). but i really think the high cocoa in the dark choc sent me into an anabolic state, and looking at compound 20 it basically utilizes the same cocoa based extracts for anabolic increase, coupled with the lowered cortisol it got me leaner and harder noticeably, anyway end of random thoughts lol, pretty funny when you see real life examples of how some of these supps works i think.
03-24-2013, 10:42 PM
With the stack you stated you are going to run earlier, I would wait to run Compound 20. You don't want to add too much at one time. Also if you have never ran the product, you won't know what is working and what is not working. Always good to run products solo before stacking to see what you get from it.
If you want, run what you have planned, take a few weeks off, then run the V-1 and Compound 20 next.
03-24-2013, 10:57 PM
you are right kbayne, I know both PES and USPLabs are great companies, but have always wondered which is better, I reckon I will do the beast PES stack this time and a beast USPLabs stack next time, that should sort out my curiosities hehe.
03-24-2013, 10:59 PM
Excellent plan. You will get a longer run out of it with more gains IMO.
03-24-2013, 11:08 PM
I agree with Kbayne here; the stack you have lined up is great as is. I like the idea of saving Compound20 for a separate run with Versa-1 as well. It's a great combo that should work well with your current goal. I'll actually be adding both to my cut next week
03-24-2013, 11:10 PM
03-24-2013, 11:22 PM
Considering you're already training fasted, the FTP (Fasted Training Protocol) with AP would be a great option as well.
The below links have a lot of great information on both.
03-24-2013, 11:27 PM
03-24-2013, 11:29 PM
03-24-2013, 11:35 PM
03-24-2013, 11:40 PM
03-26-2013, 03:58 AM
Ending up buying 2 bottles of everything, but sadly went with OG versions and switched from alphamine to Alpha-T2. Still, 8 weeks of Anabeta, Erase, Alpha-T2 and DCP plus got some free OG dexaprine, should be pretty good, hard to beat value for money wise anyway ($220 damn cheap). I'll do a beastlier stack later I guess :P
03-26-2013, 08:31 AM
Should still be really solid. I like the look of it, definitely post feedback on how it goes!
Don't miss out on the next deal:http://pescience.com/insider
Protein Backed by Science: http://selectprotein.com
03-26-2013, 11:27 AM
It definitely wouldn't hurt to look into Tropinol XP as your testosterone booster of choice - incredible feedback as a endogenous testosterone booster, and its preworkout benefits are lauded (potassium nitrate gives epic pumps and endurance, epimedium adds even more pumps to the equation). It's currently available as part of the iForce Triumph Stack (full-sized bottles of Intimidate + Tropinol XP) for $37.49 at Nutra, which is an incredible deal - about 50% off from full retail for both.
A nice writeup:
inb4tl;drTropinol XP™ has recently been released into the supplement world with forum users reporting the following results:
Significantly increased endurance
Powerful muscle pumps
Significant muscle gain
Noticeable fat loss
These are very positive reviews but here at ************** we look at how a supplement works and via what mechanisms to better assess its potential benefits. Marketing is worthless without science and empirical feedback so while the feedback to date is positive lets tackle the science behind Tropinol XP to assess whether it can match the claims made.
Tropinol XP™ seems to be formulated using the more tried and true ingredients known in the test boosting world, instead of releasing some unknown/un-documented herb that no one has ever heard of. This in itself is no bad thing. There have been a number of supplement ingredients that looked great on paper and in rats but which didn’t pan out in the gym. By using established ingredients we can gain a better handle on the effectiveness of a new supplement.
Let’s explore each ingredient contained within Tropinol XP™, as well as how the formula works as a whole:
This herb first became popular following a study performed at the University of Ilorn in 2007(1). In this study male rats were divided into 4 separate groups labeled A-D. With group A being the control(and receiving a placebo), Group B receiving 18mg/kg, Group C receiving 50mg/kg, and Group D receiving 100mg/kg of the aqueous extract of fadogia agrestis, the results were nothing less than spectacular.
As shown in the graph below, the rats consuming all doses of fadogia agrestis showed significant increase in serum blood testosterone levels, with the 100mg/kg group showing the most significant boosts.
Hang on a second - I’m not a rat
While 100mg/kg may seem to be a large dose considering the average male weighs about 80kg (and would therefor require a dose of 8 grams per day), the truth is that human doses of herbs must be converted using a body surface area conversion formula to find the appropriate dosage. When using rats, the way to convert the dosage into human equivalence is as follows:
Rat HED/Human HED x mg/kg dosage = converted dosage
So by using the formula above, we would be left with:
Rat HED(6)/Human HED(37) x 100mg/kg = 16mg/kg.
So for an 80kg male, the proper dose to see the largest results would be a total of 1,280mg/day. While Tropinol XP™ hides its fadogia agrestis dose within a proprietary blend, it is listed first in the ingredient blend(with a 4 capsule dose totaling 2,252mg), leading us to surmise that Tropinol XP™ contains a large dose of the ingredient, which should lead to similar results found in the study all other things being equal.
Should Tropinol XP™ work similarly to how fadogia alone performed in this study there is the potential to elevate testosterone levels to at least the 200% mark witnessed in the study.
Epimedium (Standardized for 20% Icariin)
This next compound is interesting as it is capable of performing multiple functions in the body, and does not work through a single pathway like most herbs/ingredients. Let’s take a look at each unique pathway this compound is capable of modifying:
Working in a way similar to that of Viagra«, Icariin has been shown to significantly inhibit PDE5. Indeed one study showed that not only was Icariin active in this respect but a variant of it was more potent than the active compound in Viagra«! What this means is that Tropinol XP™ can enhance vascularity and blood flow leading to better pumps inside and outside the gym. It also has the potential to act as a pre-sex supplement given the similarity with how Viagra« works.
Testosterone Mimetic Properties(4)
Icariin can actually mimic the effects of testosterone in your body and the researchers suggested its therapeutic use for managing suppressed androgen levels. When you consume icariin it is transported to the blood stream. From here, just like testosterone, icariin can actually interact with and unlock androgen receptors. By activating more androgen receptors, users should feel a significant increase in testosterone like effects such as added strength, increased lean body mass, higher libido, and a higher feeling of confidence.
Enhance eNOS and Nitric Oxide production(5)(6)
Some of the most popular products these days are those that can increase Nitric Oxide levels. Icariin is capable of increasing Nitric Oxide which means users should feel a large “pump” while on this product. A pump is the feeling when vasodilation (enlargement of veins) occurs. By increasing the size of your veins, you will be able to provide your muscles with more oxygen, nutrients, and blood, leaving you with incredibly swollen and full looking muscle bellies. In addition to the aesthetic benefits, a strong pump also helps facilitate more muscle growth by literally stretching out our muscle fascia tissue. This means not only the feeling of a pump, but enhanced muscle growth in the sites where you feel the pump most.
The studies on icariin show that not only is nitric oxide increased it increases in a dose dependent manner and the increase occurs within as little as five minutes. This means Tropinol XP™ could be dosed in the preworkouts period to enhance muscle pumps.
Increase Testosterone(4) and Enhance Bone Formation
The same study which showed that Icariin can act as a testosterone mimetic also showed that it was able to boost natural testosterone levels, improve penile condition, and improve bone formation. Icariin was found to significantly increase testosterone production, but left LH and FSH levels unchanged. This most likely means that icariin may influence aromatase or 5-alpha reductase activity in vivo and thereby modulate serum T levels without directly impacting LH secretion.
Overall, Icariin has a very positive research basis with numerous benefits for both health and performance.
Coleus Forskolhii (Providing 20% Forskolin)
Most commonly used for its fat burning effects, Coleus Forskohlii has also been shown to raise testosterone in men (7). In the cited study, coleus forskolhii not only favourably altered body mass (participants lost body fat while they gained lean body mass), but was also shown to increase testosterone by up to 33%. This information lends this herb a very unique ability to help users both burn fat and build muscle simultaneously, despite most people believing that doing both at once is impossibility. This lends some credence to the reports of users of Tropinol XP™ experiencing simultaneous increases in muscle and loss of fat.
25R-Dione Spirost-4-Ene, 6-Dion
This compound is listed with a fancy nomenclature, however it is more commonly known as the plant steroid Diosgenin. Very few studies on this compound exist, however iForce Nutrition utilized this compound in their previous best seller “Max Out”, and claim it was solely responsible for the substantial and immediate strength gains many users experienced. In the only study exploring the effects of this compound(8), researchers found that it was capable of displaying strong anabolic properties, without manifesting any negative androgenic traits. Most notably, this compound was found to significantly increase weight in rats when tested, which shows that a natural anabolic without any negative side effects.
One thing we should point out here is that much as mentioned in our review of ecdysterone previously, plant steroids do NOT act in the same way as anabolic steroids or prohormones. They do not negatively affect the HPTA axis, nor do they have any side effects in their use. Perhaps most important of all, they do not lower natural testosterone levels unlike anabolic steroids.
As mentioned earlier, Tropinol XP™ contains one ingredient never before seen in a testosterone booster, and that ingredient is potassium nitrate. While this compound has no literature to show that it can increase testosterone, the inclusion of a high dose of nitrates(93mg/capsule, or 372mg per 4 capsule dose according the label) does offer users a host of other benefits.
In an just released study(9) published in February 2013, the inclusion of high levels of nitrates in athletes’ diet not only improved athletic performance, but also significantly upregulated nitric oxide levels via the nitrate-nitrite-NO pathway, as well as increasing muscular glucose uptake. This research supports other research which showed that nitrates can improve performance, especially muscle endurance.
The level of potassium nitrate found in Tropinol XP™ should provide users with better pumps, as well as significantly increasing endurance. These findings support end user reviews of intense muscle pumps and much improved endurance while using Tropinol XP™.
While iForce Nutrition does not cite these claims (most likely due to the product being released just as this study was being performed), they do mention that potassium nitrate is also beneficial for its mild diuretic properties. Although no direct studies showcase this compound’s ability to act as a mild diuretic, it is widely regarded as a scientific fact that taking potassium nitrate will cause a diuretic effect which in turn will help you attain a more eye pleasing physique by eliminating excess water stores in your muscle cells.
Iforce Nutrition have taken a gamble on this ingredient but the early feedback from users has been positive so it looks a wise choice on their part.
Vitamin D3 (as Cholecalciferol)
This version of vitamin D is widely regarded as the most bioavailable form, so you can expect your body to be able to absorb and utilize every single IU that is listed on the label. Tropinol XP™ contains a whopping 5,000IU’s of vitamin D3 per 4 capsule serving, which is higher than just about every other testosterone booster on the market we can think of.
In a large study (10), vitamin D was given to healthy males over an extended period of time (10). The study provided the participants with 3,332IU of Vitamin D per day, or about 66% of the amount found in Tropinol XP™. Coming straight from the study itself:
“Compared to baseline values, a significant increase in total testosterone levels (from 10.7 ▒ 3.9 nmol/l to 13.4 ▒ 4.7 nmol/l; p < 0.001), bioactive testosterone (from 5.21 ▒ 1.87 nmol/l to 6.25 ▒ 2.01 nmol/l; p = 0.001), and free testosterone levels (from 0.222 ▒ 0.080 nmol/l to 0.267 ▒ 0.087 nmol/l; p = 0.001) were observed in the vitamin D supplemented group.”
Simply put, adding in vitamin D to their diet increased not only testosterone, but bioactive testosterone, and free testosterone as well. On average, the people in this trial saw an increase in testosterone of 21% (10.7 to 13.4), an average increase of bioactive testosterone of 17%, and a 17% increase in free testosterone.
While no study has been performed on these hormone levels at 5000IU/day, it is easy to believe that there would be additional testosterone, bioactive testosterone, and free testosterone increases with the increased dosage. We know of many recommending vitamin D doses daily of up to 10000IU or more for maximal effects so the 5000IU recommendation of Iforce is not an excessive amount given the continuing profusion of positive research data on vitamin D, not just for increasing testosterone, but improving a range of health markers and improving athletic performance.
Zinc (as Zinc Aspartate)
Zinc is a critical mineral for the body to produce testosterone. Unless zinc levels are adequate the body cannot produce testosterone at an optimal rate. It is also the case that athletes in particular have been studied and shown to be deficient in zinc. Not for nothing does famed strength and conditioning coach Charles Poliquin consider zinc an essential supplement for his athletes.
Three studies in particular make note of Zinc’s incredible testosterone enhancing ability, and this is what they say:
“Resting TT3, TT4, FT3, FT4 and TSH levels of subjects were higher than the parameters measured after exhaustion exercise before zinc supplementation (p<0.05). Both resting and exhaustion TT3, TT4 and FT3 values after 4-week zinc supplementation were found significantly higher than both of the parameters (resting and exhaustion) measured before zinc supplementation (p<0.05). Resting total testosterone and free testosterone levels before zinc supplementation were significantly higher than exhaustion levels before zinc supplementation (p<0.05). Both resting and exhaustion total and free testosterone levels following 4-week zinc supple”
This study found that supplementing with Zinc not only raised testosterone significantly, but it also found that it sustained high testosterone levels during inactivity and during exhaustive exercise.
“Serum total testosterone levels in Zn group were higher than in Se group after exercise (P < 0.05). Serum-free testosterone levels in the Zn group were higher than the other groups (P < 0.05).”
Zinc again worked as an effective way to boost both testosterone and free testosterone.
“Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level.”
A direct correlation can be made between the levels of Zinc in one’s body, and their testosterone levels.
As a brand we have always sought products that push the bar to help satisfy bodybuilders who want the best possible products available. With so many testosterone boosters on the market it can be difficult to make a decision on which to buy and it doesn’t help that in the case of many people we see, individual response to different ingredients varies enormously. Some respond well to AI type supplements while others seem to do better on products designed to increase testosterone directly rather than via inhibition of estrogen.
With so many products out there and so many ingredients out there the danger we see is that some companies (mentioning no names!) throw out formulas with 100 different ingredients to impress the na´ve user who will believe he has the most potent product ever. In reality, such formulas always disappoint as they lack effective doses of ingredients and they cannot make up for this basic fact.
Based upon the cited studies on the ingredients found within Tropinol XP™, we believe that this product delivers effective doses of ingredients which have been proven in the lab and, based on feedback, are popular with supplement consumers. With an ingredient blend designed to significantly increase testosterone, act as a testosterone mimetic, activate large amounts of androgen receptors, directly increase athletic performance, and significantly increase pumps and endurance, Tropinol XP™ is certainly constructed on solid foundations. Despite being released just a few short weeks ago, end user opinions on this product appear to support iForce Nutrition’s claims, lending support in the real world to the studies performed on the individual ingredients in this product.
iForce Nutrition are very confident this product will be a first choice for users of testosterone booster supplements so we look forward to hearing what our customers think of this product.
iFORCE NUTRITION REPRESENTATIVE
iTRAIN. iCOMPETE. iDOMINATE.
03-26-2013, 11:18 PM
ok I cracked, my stack didn't look beastly enough so I splurged on two bottles of SS Forskolin 95, Slinsane v2, Phosphatidylserine and Enhanced, add those to Anabeta, Erase, Alpha-T2, DCP and Dexaprine. Now we are getting somewhere, anything else to add while I'm at it nah that's enough I'm happy with the stack now hehe.
03-27-2013, 02:39 AM
Lot of solid supps in that stack. Cut/recomp city. It's good you got a thermogenic/fat burner. Since you are trying to cut/recomp, some people report hunger increases with Anabeta, but with Dexaprine, the hunger increase will level off.
09-10-2013, 05:11 PM
the absolute ultimate fat burning stack is this, i used it to cut over 120lbs and made huge gains in the process, quickly aswell
-1cap lean xtreme
-8caps activate xtreme (split into 2 dosages)
-4caps triazole (split into 2 dosages)
-600mg 7-keto (split into 3 dosages)
-creatine hcl (4g all at once)
-ephedrine hcl (24mg 3x daily)
-caffeine (200mg 3x daily)
-citrulline malate (6g daily, split into 3 dosages)
-aakg (10g daily, split into 3 dosages)
-1,3 DIM, aka DMAA (3 caps daily, split into 3 dosages)
-cissus (10g daily)
-vitamin C (8g daily)
its alot of stuff but you will gain power like crazy, fat just literally melts off like nothing, and you pack on alot of muscle (while being in a caloric deficient)
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