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Best "non-jittery" pre-workout supplement?

  1.  03-10-2005  11:49 AM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Syr
    No, I will do this:

    AM: BO
    Midday: I take the PS and various protectants already. Not adding more stuff at this time
    Afternoon /Pre-workout: 5g taurine + ALCAR (after my current cycle i will start using CEE again)
    Post-workout: 5g taurine
    Nighttime: BO

    Explanation: I prefer to space 12h the citrulline malate across the day and I dont care of the slight stimulating effect i would have during training. Taurine already gave me more than the times i took BO or any arginine-based stuff.

    So, i'm going to buy alcar
    I've seen the primaforce caps at a very good price.

    This would make 5g taurine on normal days and 10g on training days.
    What about ALCAR? How much should i take? 3g? Also, do u suggest to take it every day or on training days only? Note that i workout only 3/week, so that makes a huge difference in my budget.
    This looks pretty damn good. If you really want volume effects from taurine, it helps to add 1-2 grams betaine. If you really want CNS effect from the preworkout ALCAR you gotta add choline. I personally take ALCAR everyday for the nutrient partitioning effects and anti-aging effects.
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  2.  03-10-2005  11:58 AM
    Board Supporter meathead1987's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    Body Octane does not have betaine in it
    Sorry, you are right. My bad

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  3.  03-10-2005  12:57 PM
    Syr
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    This looks pretty damn good. If you really want volume effects from taurine, it helps to add 1-2 grams betaine. If you really want CNS effect from the preworkout ALCAR you gotta add choline. I personally take ALCAR everyday for the nutrient partitioning effects and anti-aging effects.
    My problem is that i dont live in the US and finding bulk powders in EU is damn difficult. Importing more than 100-200g incurs in customs issues that i want to avoid like pest.

    So, I will check to the cost and dosage ratio of the primaforce caps and see if it worth. I want the partitioning effect of ALCAR and i'm not sure of the carnitine-tartarate in BO about that effect. I was considering Leptigen Mass, but thats all but cheap.
    I'll look into betaine too.

  4.  03-10-2005  02:38 PM
    Board Supporter GTOman's Avatar
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    Redline by VPX.
    I'm on my second bottle and I'm loving the stuff. I take 5ml before morning cardio and I feel like I can go all day, I have to wear my HR monitor to make sure I stay in my target HR zone. I don't get any of the jitters or the crash that I normally get with an EC stack.

  5.  03-10-2005  04:56 PM
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    dianabol

  6.  03-10-2005  05:40 PM
    Registered User T-Bone's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    I personally take ALCAR everyday for the nutrient partitioning effects and anti-aging effects.
    Anti-aging effects? Your 20!. I feel sorry for how your gonna feel when your my age if you feel you have to take something for anti-aging at 20 years old!

  7.  03-10-2005  06:50 PM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Anti-aging effects? Your 20!. I feel sorry for how your gonna feel when your my age if you feel you have to take something for anti-aging at 20 years old!
    Never too young to start!
    Actually, I just use the anti-aging term as an umbrella to cover all sorts of enhanced recovery effects. But it really does have anti-aging effects beyond the usual anti-oxidant combo, et cetera.
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  8.  03-10-2005  07:30 PM
    Registered User pharmitect's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    "A study on the pharmacokinetics of oral L-carnitine in human subjects found no differences in plasma carnitine after 2 g vs. 6 g, indicating that 2 g is already more than the saturable dose." --D.Tolson
    L-carnitine isn't ALCAR, and I would not assume that the pharmacokinetics are the same. I'd also say that blood levels are less important than cellular or even mitochondrial levels, since that's where carnitine (and presumably ALCAR) actually do their thing. Cellular levels might correlate with blood levels, or perhaps not. In some cases cells will take nutrients from the blood, but only down to a certain level. This produces a ceiling in serum levels even though cellular levels keep rising. I don't know if this applies to carnitine or ALCAR but it is a possibility.

    On the other hand, for most people even 3g is a sizable dose. I've known people to get insomnia if they took even 1g too close to bedtime. I personally seem to have a high tolerance. 5g is my typical dose, and I don't find that to be much of a stimulant, but I'm definitely unusual in that respect.

    If people aren't having problems from the dose you're using, I would not worry too much. But maybe 3g would be better for the next batch.

  9.  03-10-2005  08:00 PM
    Registered User italionstallion's Avatar
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    i have been liking
    3 g taurine
    2.5 g alcar
    200 mg ginkgo biloba

    this is in addition to dymatize xpand

  10.  03-10-2005  08:25 PM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    I hear ya.

    What I would really like to add to my blend is some vinpocetine, hupzerine, and ginkgo (such as what's sold at 1fast).
    MOTIV8 II Challenge
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  11.  03-11-2005  06:01 PM
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    This is what I make for my clients and take myself:

    ALCAR 4.7g
    L-tyrosine 2.5g
    Betaine 890mg
    Choline bitartrate 480
    Choline citrate 420
    Glucuronolactone 830mg
    Caffeine 150mg
    Emer-gen-C 1.6g (168mg mineral ascorbates)
    Ascorbic acid 37mg

    Add in a B-complex and you're gold. I make mine sour pineapple-orange flavor.
    Where do you get your flavoring? Have you found some which is not 100% artficial? The alchemist within me has been awoken and I want to make myself a mix along the lines of what you and meathead have posted

    Has anyone tried aniracetam?

  12.  03-11-2005  06:40 PM
    Obese Member Alpha Dog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AcuDoc
    Has anyone tried aniracetam?
    Yes, it didn't do much for me. Really no different than its pira cousin, just more money.

  13.  03-11-2005  10:07 PM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AcuDoc
    Where do you get your flavoring? Have you found some which is not 100% artficial? The alchemist within me has been awoken and I want to make myself a mix along the lines of what you and meathead have posted

    Has anyone tried aniracetam?
    I used True Protein .com flavors orange and pineapple which are natural and artificial. Mix these with some orange Emer'gen-C and citric acid and it works very well. I think today I just found the perfect ratio actually. Here it is:

    (1 serving)
    1g betaine
    1g choline bitartrate/citrate
    2.5g ALCAR
    2g L-tyrosine
    800mg glucuronolactone
    75mg caffeine

    And the real magic was in the flavor which was:

    1 packet orange Emer'gen-C
    170mg flavor (50% orange and 50% pineapple)
    1.5 teaspoons sucrose
    1 oz. Glycerine

    This mix was by far the best tasting one I had ever had. It was actually refreshing. I used about 10-15oz of water with it. Obviously, the glycerine is a bit sweet so if you omit that add a bit more sucrose.

    Oh, and here's a nice place for flavors http://www.naturesflavors.com/default.php?cPath=21
    MOTIV8 II Challenge
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  14.  03-12-2005  05:01 AM
    Syr
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    Thumbs up


    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    1g choline bitartrate/citrate
    This is another great substance

  15.  03-12-2005  08:08 AM
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    I used True Protein .com flavors orange and pineapple which are natural and artificial. Mix these with some orange Emer'gen-C and citric acid and it works very well. I think today I just found the perfect ratio actually. Here it is:

    (1 serving)
    1g betaine
    1g choline bitartrate/citrate
    2.5g ALCAR
    2g L-tyrosine
    800mg glucuronolactone
    75mg caffeine

    And the real magic was in the flavor which was:

    1 packet orange Emer'gen-C
    170mg flavor (50% orange and 50% pineapple)
    1.5 teaspoons sucrose
    1 oz. Glycerine

    This mix was by far the best tasting one I had ever had. It was actually refreshing. I used about 10-15oz of water with it. Obviously, the glycerine is a bit sweet so if you omit that add a bit more sucrose.

    Oh, and here's a nice place for flavors http://www.naturesflavors.com/default.php?cPath=21
    Thanks for the formula and the info on the flavors. One more ?, how does APC compare to reg. choline citrate/bitartrate?

  16.  03-12-2005  12:13 PM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    alpha-GPC has much more profound nootropic effects where choline citrate is basically just to keep the choline stores peaked when using things like ALCAR. You notice it when you take alpha-gpc but I don't know if the cost is really worth it. You still have to take about a 1 gram to an effect and I think it costs about $1 per gram. That aint cheep.

    Another interesting thing is that plain old lecithin is a way more effecient source of choline than either citrate or bitartrate and yet it is cheap as dirt. I would just use lecithin if it would dissolve in my drink. Did you know that lecithin comes out as waste sludge from the processesing of soybeans? It's interesting how we make use of such waste products as lecithin and whey.

    Oh, and choline citrate is better absorbed than bitartrate.
    MOTIV8 II Challenge
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  17.  03-12-2005  12:37 PM
    Syr
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    Another interesting thing is that plain old lecithin is a way more effecient source of choline than either citrate or bitartrate and yet it is cheap as dirt. I would just use lecithin if it would dissolve in my drink. Did you know that lecithin comes out as waste sludge from the processesing of soybeans? It's interesting how we make use of such waste products as lecithin and whey.

    Oh, and choline citrate is better absorbed than bitartrate.
    Interesting... I can get soy lecithin real cheap almost anywhere. What's the dose of lecithine that u recommend?

    Is choline = phosphatidyl serine?

  18.  03-12-2005  01:55 PM
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    Talking


    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    alpha-GPC has much more profound nootropic effects where choline citrate is basically just to keep the choline stores peaked when using things like ALCAR. You notice it when you take alpha-gpc but I don't know if the cost is really worth it. You still have to take about a 1 gram to an effect and I think it costs about $1 per gram. That aint cheep.

    Another interesting thing is that plain old lecithin is a way more effecient source of choline than either citrate or bitartrate and yet it is cheap as dirt. I would just use lecithin if it would dissolve in my drink. Did you know that lecithin comes out as waste sludge from the processesing of soybeans? It's interesting how we make use of such waste products as lecithin and whey.

    Oh, and choline citrate is better absorbed than bitartrate.
    Thanks for the reply. I just ordered a bunch of powders from 1fast and CNW. I'm going with the APC since the cost is not a problem for me. I'll let you know how I like it.

    I went to Trueprotein and found they had natural flavorings sweetened with stevia. I was very happy to see that and as per your recipe, got orange and pineapple. Can't wait mixing it up. Thanks again to you and meathead for the heads up on that stuff. I'll see how it compares to my methylcolbalmin.

  19.  03-12-2005  02:03 PM
    Gold Member Aeternitatis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Syr
    Interesting... I can get soy lecithin real cheap almost anywhere. What's the dose of lecithine that u recommend?

    Is choline = phosphatidyl serine?
    I would just add a tablespoon of lecithin to your protein shake. No more or you risk smelling like fish.

    The choline from lecithin is in the form of phosphatidyl choline. The p. serine is something different but also good for the mind and body (expensive though).
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  20.  03-15-2005  02:22 PM
    Syr
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    I would just add a tablespoon of lecithin to your protein shake. No more or you risk smelling like fish.

    The choline from lecithin is in the form of phosphatidyl choline. The p. serine is something different but also good for the mind and body (expensive though).
    Thank you. I found and ordered Betaine and Lecithin. Couldnt find bulk powders, so its caps. The lecithin should not be gross like the one i see in bottles in herb stores.
    I'll be dosing 1 gram of Betaine HCL and 2,4 grams of lecithin pre-workout.
    I decided to not add ALCAR for now, since i'm taking 3g ED of carnitine-tartarate. MAYBE 1g only added just pre or post-workout would be useful, but it seems a waste to me now.

    Tell me what do you think of this:

    Pre-Workout:
    5g taurine
    1g betaine HCL
    2,4g lecithin
    3g CEX (currently i'm off this)

    Post-Workout:
    5g taurine
    1g vit C
    glucosamine/msm/chronidotin (dont remember but its double the recommended dosage)
    Glucophase XR (1 cap)

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