Decimate, ECA and Vanillean....

[saggy321]

Hi guys,

Coming to the end of my first week of IF combined with Decimate and ECA during the fasting period and liking it. I have a question though. A supplier in the UK has Vanillean in stock and I wondered whether it would be beneficial to add this to the stack or could it cause problems. Vanillean's ingredients are:

Carvacrol/Allyl Isothiocyanate 1 mg **
Capsaicin HCI 1 mg **
Raspberry Ketones 150 mg **
Zingerone 50 mg **
Evodiamine 25 mg **
Piperine 20% 15 mg **
Vanillin 50 mg **

Many thanks,

S.

 

[mr.cooper69]

In my opinion, no. If that's a full daily dose, almost everything is underdosed.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

In my opinion, no. If that's a full daily dose, almost everything is underdosed.

this is only one serving(1 capsule).

daily dosage is 3 servings.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Ah. Even still, the RKs, zingerone, and evodiamine are underdosed. And I'm personally not a fan of Carvacrol (anti-hypertrophy) and Zingerone (pro-adipogenic).

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Ah. Even still, the RKs, zingerone, and evodiamine are underdosed. And I'm personally not a fan of Carvacrol (anti-hypertrophy) and Zingerone (pro-adipogenic).

Now you made me curious.

Hows carvacrol anti-hypertrophy?
And i dont know much on adipogenesis or why you say that would be bad. Could you explain that please?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Now you made me curious.

Hows carvacrol anti-hypertrophy?
And i dont know much on adipogenesis or why you say that would be bad. Could you explain that please?

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

 

[saggy321]

In my opinion, no. If that's a full daily dose, almost everything is underdosed.

Does sesamin activate PPAR alpha only?

 

[saggy321]

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

I'm glad I asked the question - I was just about to complete the transaction, but I thought it best to check with Oracle!

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

lol... im impressed with how fast you were able to reply to that.

thanks man. much appreciated.

But considering you are already in a fat loss scenario (training and dieting), would that make the positive effects overcome the negatives ?

 

[fumoney]

lol... im impressed with how fast you were able to reply to that.

thanks man. much appreciated.

But considering you are already in a fat loss scenario (training and dieting), would that make the positive effects overcome the negatives ?

Yeah, coop doesn't copy and paste. It a actually comes from his mind.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Yeah, coop doesn't copy and paste. It a actually comes from his mind.

lol just to clarify... i wasnt implying that at all.

 

[jswain34]

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

Awesome, I just ****ing bought vanillean because of everyone saying they liked it. Son of a bitch...

 

[mr.cooper69]

lol... im impressed with how fast you were able to reply to that.

thanks man. much appreciated.

But considering you are already in a fat loss scenario (training and dieting), would that make the positive effects overcome the negatives ?

It's possible. I'm not saying Vanillean is a bad product. I like the use of capsaicin and vanillin. It's just tough to decode what the net result will be because the biochemistry is incredibly muddled.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

It's possible. I'm not saying Vanillean is a bad product. I like the use of capsaicin and vanillin. It's just tough to decode what the net result will be because the biochemistry is incredibly muddled.

Yeah... i mean, obviously the idea in every product is to have more benefits than negatives for a particular goal. I meant more like, for example, caffeine may increase cortisol, which can be catabolic, yet it is on the majority of fat burners.

So... carvacrol and zingerone would fit into something like that.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yeah... i mean, obviously the idea in every product is to have more benefits than negatives for a particular goal. I meant more like, for example, caffeine may increase cortisol, which can be catabolic, yet it is on the majority of fat burners.

So... carvacrol and zingerone would fit into something like that.

You are correct (though zingerone at that dose will do nothing either way). It may or may not be a good product, but I was answering the question about whether or not it is worth it; generally, I advocate spending money on proven ingredients in effective doses, and this wasn't the case here. I nonetheless admire the desire to innovate and would personally scrap a few of the ingredients in favor of bumping up the doses of the others.

 

[AlexErdellan]

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

Appreciate your posts, it's good to see some non-biased feedback on supplement ingredients. I was considering buying the alphamine vanillean stack but this post helped me decide to save my money so I just got some L Carnitine (Ergogenix, $5 each) and will use that with EC.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

You are correct (though zingerone at that dose will do nothing either way). It may or may not be a good product, but I was answering the question about whether or not it is worth it; generally, I advocate spending money on proven ingredients in effective doses, and this wasn't the case here. I nonetheless admire the desire to innovate and would personally scrap a few of the ingredients in favor of bumping up the doses of the others.

Yeah, sure. I know. Just had to sidetrack there from the OP for a second. hehe

But then, knowing that this is the content of 1 serving, how many would you take a day?

Also... it may be underdosed if used by itself, but could provide some help if stacked with other products that contain similar compounds dont you think?

Im not gonna lie, im on vanillean right now... about to pop one in a minute here. But i cant particularly comment on its effectiveness since im stacking it with a few other products ;p

What i can say is that i have woken up in the middle of the night sweating a few times since i started it. Ive read that other people had the same sides and didnt believe in it before it actually happened with me(more than once by now). And this **** never happens when im off it. I mean... its not like it is going to wake you up.... more like those semi-wake ups during the night that would happen anyway and you dont even get up... just notice "wtf im all sweaty?!", then you roll over and go back to sleep. And i know its vanillean and not any other product in the stack because it only started happening when vanillean was added.(im bridging it)

 

[boogyman]

Awesome, I just ****ing bought vanillean because of everyone saying they liked it. Son of a bitch...

If you already bought it then you may as well run it (preferably solo or with stuff you have experience with), and gauge its effectiveness. A lot of people have had positive effects from it, so while a few components may be underdosed, the formula as a whole may be a good one. I do agree with cooper on sticking with tried and true stuff in proper doses, but sometimes a supplement just works and the reasons are not even clear as to why. You did already buy it anyway.

 

[Geoforce]

Ah. Even still, the RKs, zingerone, and evodiamine are underdosed.

Combo would get you closer on the RK's at least as both products share the ingredient. I don't know what amount of RK's you're trying to get at (500?) but daily serving of Vanillean gets you 450 mg while a daily serving of Decimate nets you 300 mg. Though I don't usually like the idea of running three fat burners at once even if one is non stim personally.

 

[boogyman]

Cooper, could dosing 2 caps twice a day maybe be more effective than 3 spread out, based on the ingredient profile?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Cooper, could dosing 2 caps twice a day maybe be more effective than 3 spread out, based on the ingredient profile?

Really no difference IMO

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yeah, sure. I know. Just had to sidetrack there from the OP for a second. heheBut then, knowing that this is the content of 1 serving, how many would you take a day?Also... it may be underdosed if used by itself, but could provide some help if stacked with other products that contain similar compounds dont you think? Im not gonna lie, im on vanillean right now... about to pop one in a minute here. But i cant particularly comment on its effectiveness since im stacking it with a few other products ;pWhat i can say is that i have woken up in the middle of the night sweating a few times since i started it. Ive read that other people had the same sides and didnt believe in it before it actually happened with me(more than once by now). And this **** never happens when im off it. I mean... its not like it is going to wake you up.... more like those semi-wake ups during the night that would happen anyway and you dont even get up... just notice "wtf im all sweaty?!", then you roll over and go back to sleep. And i know its vanillean and not any other product in the stack because it only started happening when vanillean was added.(im bridging it)

It should definitely increase sweating, as this is a known effect of capsaicin, evodiamine, and possibly vanillin.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Combo would get you closer on the RK's at least as both products share the ingredient. I don't know what amount of RK's you're trying to get at (500?) but daily serving of Vanillean gets you 450 mg while a daily serving of Decimate nets you 300 mg. Though I don't usually like the idea of running three fat burners at once even if one is non stim personally.

Extrapolating from the rat data, you want 1.5-2g daily for fat loss.

 

[Smitty77]

Extrapolating from the rat data, you want 1.5-2g daily for fat loss.

Part of the reason why we're leaving it out of the Decimate reformulation completely. It's a very inexpensive ingredient, and those efficacious amounts certainly could be reached by companies including it in their products. But we feel that the money is better spent elsewhere, like you said, Coop, trimming the fat and letting the stars shine, so to speak.

 

[Shrine]

Carvacrol activates PPAR alpha, which is great for fat loss, but it also acitvates counter-regulatory circuits including PPAR gamma, which promote fat gain. Further, carvacrol prevents myonuclear accretion via COX-2 dependent activities, theoretically diminishing hypertrophy.

Zingerone, much like carvacrol, has a mixed mechanism of action that simultaneously aids both fat loss and fat gain.

Bro I am amazed how knowledgable you are. Good sh1t man.