L-Arginine and GH release - AnabolicMinds.com

L-Arginine and GH release

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    L-Arginine and GH release


    Are the effects L-Arginine has on GH release enough to make an impact for a bodybuilder? Ive been reading up on it, but Id like to hear some responses from people who have tried it for this purpose.

    If so, it might be a great addition to PCT - keep those great pumps going and help retain lean mass with increased GH.

    BV

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    I think the Arginine and Ornithine is supposed to work better, but the amount of GH released can't be that high..
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    Its arginine and lysine and you can raise them at basal conditions (and was shown to have biologic activity) so it definetly could have an effect.
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    I don't see the point in arginine and lysine as one has been shown to lower the levels of another to my knowledge (maybe I should say they seem tohave an inverse relationship). This is why people with cold sores (or other herpes variants) benefit from lower arginine levels and higher lysine levels. I'd stick with straight arginine, JMO.
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    I tried Arginine w/Mucana Purens containing L-DOPA and to tell you the truth did not notice any difference...
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    Arginine, Ornithine, and Lysine have a synnergistic relationship when it comes to growth hormone release. Arginine on its own can increase GH levels. Ornithine on its own can increase GH levels. Lysine cannot however on its own. Arginine and Ornithine together merely have a cumulative effect, however Lysine enhances the effects of both when added in.
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    Im not so sure GH is the end all to muscle building.JMO I have tried every and all supplements,herbs,homeopathic you name it..I used Lonjack (Ton kat Ali) high potency Tribulus,Mucana with 15% L-DOPA and really did not notice any difference.
    The only supplements I take now are a complete multi vit and mineral,green tea extract,Rhodiola.I will say this I started taking 200mg a day of DHEA and 100mg of Pregnalone and have noticed a big difference taking those two.
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    Rhodiola works great for me too as a mood enhancer and general anti-stressor...

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by jweave23
    I don't see the point in arginine and lysine as one has been shown to lower the levels of another to my knowledge (maybe I should say they seem tohave an inverse relationship). This is why people with cold sores (or other herpes variants) benefit from lower arginine levels and higher lysine levels. I'd stick with straight arginine, JMO.
    Lysine will inhibit the growth of herpatic lesions induced by high levels of arginine but the effect on GH release and also the inhibitory effects of IGF-1 on GH is not effected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Arginine, Ornithine, and Lysine have a synnergistic relationship when it comes to growth hormone release. Arginine on its own can increase GH levels. Ornithine on its own can increase GH levels. Lysine cannot however on its own. Arginine and Ornithine together merely have a cumulative effect, however Lysine enhances the effects of both when added in.
    No they can't. Alone they do not increase GH levels from oral consumption. Ornithine does not induce GH release even intravensouly. The studies showin any GH release from individual aminos is from intravenous administration or in old men (effect not shown in young men).

    The only combination that has been shown to work with oral doses in young men during basal conditions is arginine/lysine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaDmaN
    Im not so sure GH is the end all to muscle building.JMO I have tried every and all supplements,herbs,homeopathic you name it..I used Lonjack (Ton kat Ali) high potency Tribulus,Mucana with 15% L-DOPA and really did not notice any difference.
    The only supplements I take now are a complete multi vit and mineral,green tea extract,Rhodiola.I will say this I started taking 200mg a day of DHEA and 100mg of Pregnalone and have noticed a big difference taking those two.

    Certain combo's defiently have biological activity and also the arginine has been shown to inhibit the reduction of GH due to increased IGF-1 levels. In terms of growth it would be mostly indirect by reducing catabolic/proteolysis activity. It also helps with blood glucose and nutrient partioning and also increased lipolysis.
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    Acute effect of amino acid ingestion and resistance exercise on plasma growth hormone concentration in young men.

    Suminski RR, Robertson RJ, Goss FL, Arslanian S, Kang J, DaSilva S, Utter AC, Metz KF.

    Human Performance Laboratory, University of Houston, TX 77204, USA.

    Sixteen men completed four trials at random as follows: (Trial A) performance of a single bout of resistance exercise preceded by placebo ingestion (vitamin C); (Trial B) ingestion of 1,500 mg L-arginine and 1,500 mg L-lysine, immediately followed by exercise as in Trial A; (Trial C) ingestion of amino acids as in Trial B and no exercise; (Trial D) placebo ingestion and no exercise. Growth hormone (GH) concentrations were higher at 30, 60, and 90 min during the exercise trials (A and B) compared with the resting trials (C and D) (p < .05). No differences were noted in [GH] between the exercise trials. [GH] was significantly elevated during resting conditions 60 min after amino acid ingestion compared with the placebo trial. It was concluded that ingestion of 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine immediately before resistance exercise does not alter exercise-induced changes in [GH] in young men. However, when the same amino acid mixture is ingested under basal conditions, the acute secretion of GH is increased.

    Current Medical Research & Opinion

    Vol. 7, No. 7, 1981

    A. Isidori M.D. A. Lo Monaco, M.D.& M. Cappa, M.D.
    Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy. Received: 13th March 1981

    Summary

    A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. the results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg l-lysine plus 1200 mg l-arginine pyroglutanate) provoked a release of pituitary somatotrophin & insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible & the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by radiorecepter assay & somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.


    There is also another intersting study in whic ARG blunted the inhibitory effect of IGF-1 on GH release

    Arginine counteracts the inhibitory effect of recombinant human insulin-like growth factor I on the somatotroph responsiveness to growth hormone-releasing hormone in humans.

    Gianotti L, Maccario M, Lanfranco F, Ramunni J, Di Vito L, Grottoli S, Muller EE, Ghigo E, Arvat E.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Turin, Italy.

    Insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) exerts a negative feedback effect on GH secretion via either direct actions at the pituitary level or indirect ones at the hypothalamic level, through stimulation of somatostatin (SS) and/or inhibition of GHRH release. In fact, recombinant human IGF-I (rhIGF-I) in humans inhibits spontaneous GH secretion as well as the GH response to GHRH and even more to GH/GH-releasing peptides, whose main action is on the hypothalamus, antagonizing SS and enhancing GHRH activity. The aim of the present study was to further clarify in humans the mechanisms underlying IGF-I-induced inhibition of somatotroph secretion. In six normal young volunteers (all women; mean +/- SEM: age, 28.3+/-1.2 yr; body mass index, 21.3+/-1.2 kg/m2) we studied the GH response to GHRH (1 microg/kg, iv, at 0 min), both alone and combined with arginine (ARG; 0.5 g/kg, iv, from 0-30 min), which probably acts via inhibition of hypothalamic SS release, after pretreatment with rhIGF-I (20 microg/kg, sc, at -180 min) or placebo. rhIGF-I increased circulating IGF-I levels (peak at -60 vs. -180 min: 54.9+/-3.9 vs. 35.9+/-3.3 mmol/L; P < 0.05) to a reproducible extent, and these levels remained stable and within the normal range until 90 min. The mean GH concentration over 3 h (from -180 to 0 min) before ARG and/or GHRH was not modified by placebo or rhIGF-I. After placebo, the GH response to GHRH (peak, 23.6+/-2.9 microg/L) was strikingly enhanced (P < 0.05) by ARG coadministration (69.6+/-9.9 microg/L). rhIGF-I blunted the GH response to GHRH (13.1+/-4.5 microg/L; P < 0.05), whereas that to GHRH plus ARG was not modified (59.5+/-8.9 microg/L), although it occurred with some delay. Mean glucose and insulin concentrations were not modified by either placebo or rhIGF-I. In conclusion, ARG counteracts the inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on somatotroph responsiveness to GHRH in humans. These findings suggest that the acute inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on the GH response to GHRH takes place on the hypothalamus, possibly via enhancement of SS release, and that ARG overrides this action.
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    Here is a more detailed explanation of the Isidori study:

    Current Medical Research & Opinion

    Vol. 7, No. 7, 1981

    A. Isidori M.D. A. Lo Monaco, M.D.& M. Cappa, M.D.
    Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy. Received: 13th March 1981

    Summary

    A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. the results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg l-lysine plus 1200 mg l-arginine pyroglutanate) provoked a release of pituitary somatotrophin & insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible & the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by radiorecepter assay & somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.

    Introduction

    It has been known for some time that intravenous administration of amino acids strongly stimulates secretion of growth hormone by the hypothesis. 1,4,13,15,16,18-20. This phenomenon has, in fact, been accepted & utilized as a test of pituitary function in growth disorders. 2,8,9,12,17. However, the physiological relevance of this release of human growth hormone (HGH) has not yet been fully established.

    We have investigated, therefore, the following aspects of this phenomenon: (i) the exact biological nature of the HGH secreted in response to amino acid stimulation, (ii) a possible release of other growth factors in addition to HGH, (iv) whether specific amino acids (l-lysine 7 & l-arginine), either alone or in combination, produce varying HGH responses, (v) the time course of the HGH release, & (vi) whether oral administration of the amino acids is effective.

    Subjects & methods

    Fifteen healthy male volunteers, aged 15 to 20 years, free of all endocrine or metabolic abnormalities & who were not receiving any kind of medical treatment, were kept under observation for 2 days. After initial blood samples had been obtained, each subject received a single oral dose of 2400 mg amino acids (1200mg l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate plus 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride) on an empty stomach. Blood samples were again drawn at intervals of 30.60, 90 & 120 minutes after amino acid administration. The experiment was repeated after intervals of 10 & 20 days.

    Blood samples were tested for growth hormone by: (a) a radioimmunoassay (RIA) method, & (b) a radioreceptor assay (RRA). This bioassay evaluates somatotrophin on a substrate of lymphocytes in monolayer culture (blastic lymphocytes IM9 infected with Epstein-Barr virus) after extraction & purification by gel-chromatography on a Sephadex column. The biological activity is evaluated in units & extrapolated to ng/ml.

    Somatomedin activity (Somatotomedin A, Asm) was also addressed. To evaluate this HGH-dependant serum factor a biological method was used which determines the incorporation of 35SO4 (the sulphatating activity of the serum) & of 3H-thymidine on piglet rib cartilage. This method, which we modified, 11 is extremely precise (for levels below 0.3) & quite sensitive. Somatomedin activity is expressed in U/ml. One unit indicates the sulphatating activity of 1ml of pooled serum from at least 3 healthy subjects, as no international standard has yet been established for Asm. Normal values using this method are 1+- 0.2 U/ml, with confidence limits of 0.8 and 1.2.Insulin levels were determined by radioimmunoassay.

    In a second experiment, 8 subjects randomly selected from the 15 included in the first experiment underwent growth hormone assays after administration of single doses of various amino acids: (i) 1200 mg l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate, (ii) 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride, (iii) 1200 mg of both (total 2400 mg), as in the first experiment, and (iv) 2400 l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate. Blood samples were drawn at the same times as in the first experiment and assayed only for growth hormone.

    Results

    The results are reported in Table I & figures 1, 2, & 3 & 4 for the experiment & in Table II & figure 5 for the second experiment.

    Table I. Plasma levels of growth hormone (HGH), insulin & somatomedin (Asm) after oral administration of 1200 mg. l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate & 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride: mean (+- S.D.) values for 15 subjects

    Measurement Growth hormone (ng/ml) RRA: RIA Insulin
    (µU/ml) Asm
    (U/ml)
    RIA RRA
    Baseline
    30 mins
    60 mins
    90 mins
    120 mins
    8 hours 15.4 +- 5.0
    86.2 +- 8.7
    82.0 +- 14.8
    108.0 +- 7.4
    102.7 +- 10.0
    48.0 +- 5.5 15.0 +- 3.0

    60.26 +- 9.0
    112.97 +- 6.2
    0.73
    1.04 7.3 +- 3.2
    21.0 +- 1.5
    11.7 +- 2.0
    7.9 +- 3.1
    9.85 +- 3.8 0.9 +- 0.2
    0.9 +- 0.2
    1.0 +- 0.1
    1.0 +- 0.1

    3.0 +- 0.1
    10 days later
    (90mins)*
    20 days later 97.5 +- 5.6

    95.0+-10.05
    18.3+-2.5

    17.7+-8.4

    * The test was repeated after 10 and 20 days. The figures relate to the plasma samples taken at the time of maximal peak (90 mins) in the previous experiment.

    Table II. Plasma levels (ng/ml) of growth hormone after single oral doses of l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate or l-lysine hydrochloride, alone or in combination: mean (+-S.D.) values for 8 subjects

    Measurement Arginine
    (1200 mg) Arginine
    (2400 mg) Lysine
    (1200 mg) Lysine(1200 mg)
    Arginine(1200 mg)
    Baseline
    30 mins
    60mins
    90 mins
    120 mins 7.3+-2.3
    13.5+-7.5
    10.0+-4.5
    9.2+-4.7
    9.4+-5.4 16.4+-4.1
    3.4+-2.5
    5.8+-4.0
    5.9+-3.8
    6.2+-4.1 4.8+-1.9
    6.3+-3.8
    7.8+-5.1
    13.5+-5.2
    15.8+-4.2 12.4+-2.5
    29.0+-7.5
    63.0+-7.8
    98.5+-15.0
    57.1+-10.0

    From the results it would appear the the joint administration of the two amino acids (2400 mg total) brought about a marked biological response which was reproducible and did not reduce with time. As will be seen from I and 5, there was induction of a significant peak of immunoreactive HGH which reached a maximum at 90 minutes after administration and this was confirmed when the experiment was repeated.

    Figure 1. percentage variations in plasma HGH (radioimmunoassay) with respect to baseline values after oral administration of 1200 mg l-arginine-2pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate plus 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride: mean (+-S.D.) values for 15 subjects.


    The HGH released appeared to be biologically active both in vitro on RRA systems (Figure 2) and in the peripheral induction of mediators of somatomedin activity (Figure 3). The time lag between the HGH peak and the peak of somatomedin A corresponds to that previously reported.

    Figure 2. Relationships between percentage variations from baseline values in plasma HGH, assessed by radioimmunoassay (RIA) and with a biological assay (RRA), after oral administration of the arginine plus lysine combination, as in figure 1.


    Figure 3. Plasma levels of growth hormone (HGH) and somatomedin A (Asm) after oral administration of the arginine plus lysine combination, as in figure 1.: mean (+-S.D.) values for 15 subjects.


    A significant secretion of insulin, another very important growth factor, was also induced (Figure 4).

    Figure 4. Plasma levels (RIA) after oral administration of the arginine plus lysine combination, as in Figure 1.: mean (+-S.D.) values for 15 subjects.


    The association of the two amino acids seemed to provoke a much greater HGH response than either of them demonstrated alone. Individually, their influence on HGH was practically non-existent (Figure 5), even when administered in doses equal to the total amino acid dosage of the combination.

    Figure 5. Plasma levels of HGH (RIA) after oral administration of arginine and lysine alone in combination: mean (+-S.D.) values for 8 subjects.
    Discussion

    Our findings are clinically important in terms of the relevance of amino acids to growth disorders, particularly in relation to diagnostic test in growth disorders. The confirmation of biological activity of the HGH secreted in response to oral amino acid stimulation is very important. It is known that stimulation of the hypothesis by physiological processes 6,7,10 or pharmacological agents can result in the release of substances into the circulation, the majority of which possess immunoreactive properties enabling their identification by normal RIA systems, but the peripheral biological activity is often reduced or absent. 21 We have shown similar immuno-responses to the amino acid combination but, far more important, we could demonstrate that the association of the two amino acids does result in the release of biological-active hormone able to affect peripheral cellar receptors and thus growth in general.

    Insulin is, of course, an equally important factor in cell growth. Even if there are some uncertainties regarding the bioactivity of the substance assayed, there is no doubt the the amino acids stimulated this as well as HGH: hence, both of the physiologically important growth factors are affected. It should also be noted that the hypoglycemia which follows the insulin peak is a further stimulus to HGH secretion.

    Probably the most significant aspect of our findings is that these HGH responses have demonstrated following oral administration of the amino acid complex. Previously, the only amino acid to have been tested orally is trytophan, 3,5,14 so that demonstration of oral activity of this arginine/lysine combination is clearly of considerable importance in clinical and diagnostic practice, where if offers a more practical and physiological approach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Lysine will inhibit the growth of herpatic lesions induced by high levels of arginine but the effect on GH release and also the inhibitory effects of IGF-1 on GH is not effected.
    Gotcha, it interferes with virus replication, totally unrelated to GH.

    Wow you posted studies for once!!
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    What is a study?
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    SupportArginine and ornithine are precursors of nitric oxide and polyamines, respectively -metabolites which participate in a number of metabolic functions. OKG supplements have been shown to promote growth hormone and insulin secretion with anabolic effects in postoperative patients. Their intermediary metabolites (glutamine & proline) may also have beneficial effects in promoting recovery from trauma. In animal studies, OKG supplementation increases levels of arginine and glutamine in skeletal muscles and stimulates immune system function compared to animals not receiving OKG. The immunomodulatory properties found with OKG suggest that it may enhance host-defense mechanisms, particularly during injury and acute stress

    OKG supplements (15 grams per day for 5 months) have been shown to improve growth rates in small children. The OKG supplements resulted in elevated concentrations of anabolic (growth) hormones and amino acid metabolites, including insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1), glutamine and glutamate. In another study of healthy men, OKG given at 10 grams per day resulted in a 20-30% elevation in insulin (another anabolic hormone), which were not observed with supplementation of either ornithine or alpha-ketoglutarate alone.

    A test tube study found that OKG induces a significant increase in growth of human fibroblasts – cells with similarities to muscle fiber cells. This effect was dose-dependent, meaning that a more pronounced growth effect was noted with increasing levels of OKG (but not with increasing levels of ornithine or alpha-ketoglutarate alone).

    In one study, the anti-catabolic effects of OKG were investigated in 14 multiple trauma patients who were highly catabolic and hyper-metabolic. One group of subjects received 20 grams of OKG per day and showed a significant increase in protein turnover as well as a an increase in blood levels of insulin, growth hormone, and free amino acids (glutamine, proline and ornithine) compared to subjects not receiving OKG supplements.



    References1. Cochard A, Guilhermet R, Bonneau M. Plasma growth hormone (GH), insulin and amino acid responses to arginine with or without aspartic acid in pigs. Effect of the dose. Reprod Nutr Dev 1998 May-Jun;38(3):331-43.

    2. Jeevanandam M, Petersen SR. Substrate fuel kinetics in enterally fed trauma patients supplemented with ornithine alpha ketoglutarate. Clin Nutr 1999 Aug;18(4):209-17.




    Ok, so L-Ornithine doesn't do it, but Ornithine Alpha Keto Gluterate does. On its own. Even in small children!
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    I covered this:

    "The studies showin any GH release from individual aminos is from intravenous administration or in old men (effect not shown in young men)."

    You are giving me studies on trauma patients given intravenous ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate wihch is the combination of ornithine and glutamine. Glutamine has great benefits for trauma patients when given through an IV.

    "The OKG supplements resulted in elevated concentrations of anabolic (growth) hormones and amino acid metabolites, including insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1), glutamine and glutamate. In another study of healthy men, OKG given at 10 grams per day resulted in a 20-30% elevation in insulin (another anabolic hormone), which were not observed with supplementation of either ornithine or alpha-ketoglutarate alone."

    Where is GH mentioned?
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    Also the references you give is done on pigs and trauma patients. YOu need studies with oral doses on normal men. Amino acids react quite differently in wasting diseases, IV, etc....

    WIth any amino acids study you really need to be specific in your search criteria because they have such different effects in different situations.


    The Effect Of Ornithine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (Okg) On Healthy, Weight Trained Men

    ROBERT D. CHETLIN, RACHEL A. YEATER, IRMA H. ULLRICH, W. GUYTON HORNSBY, JR., ¹CARL J. MALANGA, AND RANDALL W. BRYNER

    Department of Human Performance & Applied Exercise Science, School of Medicine; ¹School of Pharmacy,

    West Virginia University, Morgantown, WV


    "OKG did not cause a change in training intensity or volume, or result in an increase in muscle mass. However, ten grams of OKG taken daily with carbohydrates for six weeks produced small changes in bench press performance, but not squat performance. Therefore, the effect of OKG on strength remains unclear. OKG did not alter blood concentrations of insulin or growth hormone at the time periods measured in this study. Further research is needed to determine whether OKG has an anabolic effect in healthy, free-living males void of traumatic injury."
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    Great thread and info.



    Thanks Bobo for all the knowledge.

    Now, what do I do about this headache from reading all that? lol
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    That is Dr.D department. He knows OTC drugs.
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    Here is a typical OTC HGH product,here is the ingredient list



    This is the product

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    Dosing is WAY too low.

    Actually there is a study testing these products and the results were that the dosage was too low....LOL

    Increased dosage showed much better results.

    The doage used in most studies was 1500mg EACH. That has a total of 2800mg divided into 10 different ingredients.
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    Bobo,

    I was looking into the Isidori study awhile back. The study used l-arginine and l-lysine, but I noticed a couple supplement companies that offer this formula are now using arginine pyroglutamate, the dipeptide form, in lieu of l-arginine. I assume this is because APG can cross the blood/brain barrier easier and it doesn't compete with the lysine to enter the brain. In theory, I assume it would enhance this formula although I could find no research to support this. Do you know of any? Good or bad idea?

    Also, the study shows that the GH levels are still elevated 3x at 8 hrs. Should this formula be dosed multi times throughout the day to maintain the high levels?
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    Thanks for all the great responses, and taking the time to post up those reports. Great Info...

    So dosing with L-Arginine and L-Lysine at 1200mg/each produces a spike in GH levels...that's very interesting.

    Do you realize, that at 15 Dessicated Liver tabs/day, that you're already getting over 1400mg of L-Lysine and nearly 1g of L-Arginine? Factor in all the aminos from protien supplements and whatnot...seems like GH levels would be elevated in a bodybuilder based on diet alone.

    Although taking 2g L-Arginine/2g L-Lysine before bed sounds like a great idea...

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by former_SlimJim
    Bobo,

    I was looking into the Isidori study awhile back. The study used l-arginine and l-lysine, but I noticed a couple supplement companies that offer this formula are now using arginine pyroglutamate, the dipeptide form, in lieu of l-arginine. I assume this is because APG can cross the blood/brain barrier easier and it doesn't compete with the lysine to enter the brain. In theory, I assume it would enhance this formula although I could find no research to support this. Do you know of any? Good or bad idea?

    Also, the study shows that the GH levels are still elevated 3x at 8 hrs. Should this formula be dosed multi times throughout the day to maintain the high levels?
    You are right about the pyroglutamate. One other study used pyroglutamine and its seems this has a more pronounced effect on brain function. As far as GH releasing properties, the difference doesn't seem to effect it.

    Yes I do space them out. I take one does in the morning (2g each), one pre workout (1g each) and one before bed (2g each).

    Remember this could take some time for you see the effects considering increase GH takes a good amount of time to work. This will not blow you away or create massive pumps or anything of the sort but it certainly will help in nutrient partitioner, fat gain or loss and decreasing catabolic activity in the long run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Thanks for all the great responses, and taking the time to post up those reports. Great Info...

    So dosing with L-Arginine and L-Lysine at 1200mg/each produces a spike in GH levels...that's very interesting.

    Do you realize, that at 15 Dessicated Liver tabs/day, that you're already getting over 1400mg of L-Lysine and nearly 1g of L-Arginine? Factor in all the aminos from protien supplements and whatnot...seems like GH levels would be elevated in a bodybuilder based on diet alone.

    Although taking 2g L-Arginine/2g L-Lysine before bed sounds like a great idea...

    BV

    Many people have problems with the digestion of liver tabs (because usually the raw material is of low quality) and you have to realize that the increased amino load from these supplement is because of increased muscle activity and energy demands.

    For someone that is 200lb or over the dose would probably be 2g each 3x/day.
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    So the general increase in aminos will be used by the body, and its the 4g 'spikes' of the arginine and lysine that are prompting the GH release?

    This sounds like it could be a nice touch to an already effective diet plan. Ill have to give it a try.

    Thanks for your help!

    BV
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    Thats the idea
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    dumb question, basal conditions, doe that mean on an empty stomach.
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    Basal - (defined) - refers to the base or lowest level.
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    It means that the body is using energy solely for basic biological processes.

    Basal Conditions:
    the turnover of energy in a fasting and resting organism using energy solely to maintain vital cellular activity, respiration, and circulation as measured by the basal metabolic rate
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    Bobo - I thought you used 2 g arg/lys morning, 1 g each during WO, and 1 g each 1 hr after Post-WO shake?
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    Bump for Bobo.

    Also, do you take regular arginine? or diarg malate?
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    I realize this is an old thread, but I have been doing a lot of research on amino acids and their effects on growth hormone levels in hope of making my own transdermal pro-HGH formula.

    Animal research has suggested that ornithine, along with arginine, may promote muscle-building activity in the body by increasing levels of anabolic (growth-promoting) hormones such as insulin and growth hormone. However, most human research does not support these claims at reasonable intake levels.1 2 3 One study that did demonstrate increased growth hormone with oral ornithine used very high amounts (an average of 13 grams per day) and reported many gastrointestinal side effects.4

    1. Bucci LR, Hickson JF, Wolinsky I, Pivarnik JM. Ornithine supplementation and insulin release in bodybuilders. Int J Sport Nutr 1992;2:287–91.

    2. Fogelholm GM, Naveri HK, Kiilavuori KT, et al. Low-dose amino acid supplementation: no effects on serum human growth hormone and insulin in male weightlifters. Int J Sport Nutr 1993;3:290–7.

    3. Lambert MI, Hefer JA, Millar RP, et al. Failure of commercial oral amino acid supplements to increase serum growth hormone concentrations in male body-builders. Int J Sport Nutr 1993;3:298–305.

    4. Bucci L, Hickson JF, Pivarnik JM, et al. Ornithine ingestion and growth hormone release in bodybuilders. Nutr Res 1990;10:239–45.
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    There are several studies showing as little as 2g/day of arginine w/ lysine elevates GH.

    I have found ornithine to have little effect and in no way would I ingest 13g/day because those GI effects would be severe.
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    I agree. There is no-way I would ingest that much, which is why I was looking at transdermal alternatives.
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    Amino acids would never penetrate through the skin or even be stable in any transdermal carrier.
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    Bobo, do you happen to know a ballpark number as far as how many i.u. of HGH would be equivalent to the increase from the arginine/lysine combo? I would go look for a study to try to find comparable levels, but you probably already know the answer.

    Also, it would seem that there would be significant merit in a sustained release version of the A/L combo, what do you think?

    Very informative thread. Great stuff.
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    I have no idea. There really is no way to measure it at all.


    Remember, GH's effects are over long term and more lipolytic than anything.
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    I have been using my own Arginine/Lysine GH-release homebrew for about a month now. 6g each per day divided up into 3 separate dosings.

    Im definately losing fat, but Im also on a CKD diet right now.

    I have a lot more energy that I did previously in a bulking-state, but I believe that's also due to the change in diet and increase in cardiovascular activity.

    I think it will be another month or so before I see any effects from the 'GH tonic', but the ingredients are so inexpensive that it's worth it for the secondary effects. (increased pumps and vascularity, etc)

    BV
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