3,3 / 3,5 diiodo - TSH & "PCT"

[HAMinTheTrap]

Hey there everyone.

I read one of dinoiii reply on a thread about the diiodos, where an user asks if there was anything he could take to help restore TSH levels after using 33/35-T2, and he said:

"In a word, "time." If anything is going to help "bring TSH back" like many other hormonal pituitary signals...it's time. There is an exponential shift in TSH...but usually this takes on average about 3-6 weeks to "re-set." 7-keto DHEA, tyrosine, and iodine may be "helpful" however, getting the dose incorrect could also play detriment and most take said agents in a haphazard manner."


1) How do i know what the correct dosage would be? I cant get bloodwork done, so... is there any way to define or estimate it?

2) How does dosing tyrosine and 7-keto incorrectly interfere in the process of restoring tsh levels naturaly when coming off 33/35-T2?

I would really appreciate any help here.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Clemenza]

I believe the specific doses of each is what can effect how your thyroid reacts. I do know the body uses tyrosine in order to make TSH, but I'm not sure how much supplemental tyrosine would be needed, and if too much would throw things off.

I've also seen conflicting data on whether or not supplemental tyrosine actually has an effect on TSH. It does give some energy where energy lacks due to hypothyroidism, which could be a reason it helps the symptoms.

I would look into Olea Europaea (olive leaf extract). Some real good data on it showing actual thyroid REGULATION. One study showed it to boost triiodothyronin and thyroxin while actually lowering TSH. This shows it may have a direct stimulatory effect on the actual thyroid.

 

[RecompMan]

I believe the specific doses of each is what can effect how your thyroid reacts. I do know the body uses tyrosine in order to make TSH, but I'm not sure how much supplemental tyrosine would be needed, and if too much would throw things off.

I've also seen conflicting data on whether or not supplemental tyrosine actually has an effect on TSH. It does give some energy where energy lacks due to hypothyroidism, which could be a reason it helps the symptoms.

I would look into Olea Europaea (olive leaf extract). Some real good data on it showing actual thyroid REGULATION. One study showed it to boost triiodothyronin and thyroxin while actually lowering TSH. This shows it may have a direct stimulatory effect on the actual thyroid.

Don't forget kaempferol ashwaghanda and rhodiola

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

I believe the specific doses of each is what can effect how your thyroid reacts. I do know the body uses tyrosine in order to make TSH, but I'm not sure how much supplemental tyrosine would be needed, and if too much would throw things off.

I've also seen conflicting data on whether or not supplemental tyrosine actually has an effect on TSH. It does give some energy where energy lacks due to hypothyroidism, which could be a reason it helps the symptoms.

I would look into Olea Europaea (olive leaf extract). Some real good data on it showing actual thyroid REGULATION. One study showed it to boost triiodothyronin and thyroxin while actually lowering TSH. This shows it may have a direct stimulatory effect on the actual thyroid.

Don't forget kaempferol ashwaghanda and rhodiola

So, kaempferol ashwaghanda / rhodiola / Olea Europaea would all be a better/safer options than tyrosine or 7-keto for helping restore TSH levels back to normal after 33/35 use?

Why ?
And what about dosing?

Thanks

 

[RecompMan]

Add them all together


Quite expensive thou but works incredibly for fat burning and endurance

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Add them all together


Quite expensive thou but works incredibly for fat burning and endurance

lol. not sure. Elaborate/reference?




So, nobodys actually worried about tsh suppresion induced by 33/35?

I see a lot of people talking about(or products that include it) but havent found enough discussion regarding these issues. (im new here. sorry if this has been beaten to death...)

 

[Bamski]

Were you planning on using a product that contains 3,3 and/or 3,5?

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Don't forget kaempferol ashwaghanda and rhodiola

Also kelp and fucoxanthin

-Chris
EBF Rep
Mobile App

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Also kelp and fucoxanthin.

Alphamine and aav2 stacked

-Chris
EBF Rep
Mobile App

-Chris
EBF Rep
Mobile App

 

[VaughnTrue]

I have never seen anyone actually impair/reduce their TSH from a 3,3/3,5 product if dosed somewhat sanely. These compounds just aren't potent enough to do serious damage IMO, but to each their own.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Were you planning on using a product that contains 3,3 and/or 3,5?

Well, Im interested. Who wouldnt want to raise their metabolic rate when cutting. But im still worried about any possible negative sides / rebound.

Why ?



@runner & IBF --->> I recognize the stuff you 2 mention actually have thyroid support properties. But these replies are so bland... Im trying to assort this as healthy and naturally as possible.
I wouldnt want to shove thyroid drug cocktails down my system without proper reasearch.

Dr.houser wasnt kidding when he said: "and most take said agents in a haphazard manner." lol


-----------------------------
"Although the metabolic role of the T2 isomers is poorly understood and the absolute contribution of these hormones to physiological function in humans is unclear, experimental data raises doubts whether the various effects of thyroid hormones in different tissues can all be attributed to T3. The isomer 3,5-T2 has selective thyromimetic activity and has an ability to suppress TSH levels.7 In animals, the 3,3'-T2 and 3,5-T2 isomers induce a dose-dependent increase in resting metabolic rate (RMR), an increase accompanied by a parallel increase in the oxidative capacity of metabolically active tissues such as liver, skeletal muscle, brown adipose tissue, and heart. In these experiments, 3,5-T2 exerted its greatest stimulatory effect on brown adipose tissue (BAT), while 3,3'-T2 had its greatest effect on muscle oxidative capacity. Although T3 is generally considered to be the metabolically active thyroid hormone, in contrast to these T2 isomers, T3 has only a small metabolic and oxidative effect on skeletal muscle and no significant stimulatory effect in heart and BAT, irrespective of dose.8,9 (See Table 1 for a summary of T2 isomer activity.)

Alterations in serum concentrations of 3,3'-T2 have been reported for humans under certain conditions. As a rule this isomer declines significantly with advancing age. Hyperthyroidism is characterized by an expected increase and hypothyroidism with a decrease in 3,3'-T2 concentrations.10 Of the T2 isomers, 3,5-T2 is presumed to be the most metabolically active and can only be formed from further deiodination of T3 by 3'-deiodinase. The isomer 3,3'-T2 can be formed from the deiodination of either T3 by 5-deiodinase or from rT3 through the same 5'-deiodinase enzyme responsible for the formation of T3 from T4. rT3 can also be degraded to an inactive isomer, 3',5'-T2, by a 3-deiodinase enzyme." - Greg Kelly, ND
(low post count: im not allowed to post the link to the study)
----------

This is just one of a few papers around reporting suppression.

Still curious why i dont see enough talk about this. Its not like 33 is OK/suppression free.

I have never seen anyone actually impair/reduce their TSH from a 3,3/3,5 product if dosed somewhat sanely. These compounds just aren't potent enough to do serious damage IMO, but to each their own.

If suppression is weak enough that it can be ignored? Then why the lethargy reports? Specially when ppl come off it.

You also mention "if dosed somewhat sanely".

But according to this study:
---------
"In vivo, T2 has been shown to suppress TSH levels at doses that do not produce significant peripheral manifestations of thyroid hormone activity. Furthermore, T2 has been shown to produce smaller increments in peripheral indices of thyroid status than does T3, when doses resulting in equivalent suppression of circulating TSH are compared. We have assessed the selective thyromimetic activity of T2 in vivo and in vitro, and performed in vitro studies to assess the potential molecular basis for these selective properties. T2 was 100-fold less potent than T3 in stimulating GH mRNA levels in GH3 cells. In contrast, the iodothyronines were almost equivalent in their ability to downregulate TRbeta2 mRNA levels in this cell line. Both 3,3'-diiodo-L-thyronine and thyronine exhibited no significant thyromimetic effects on either process."
(low post count: im not allowed to post the link to the study)
---------

What is your take on that?

I know iforce makes tt-33, so i really appreciate you stopping by and providing some insight.

 

[Bamski]

Well, Im interested. Who wouldnt want to raise their metabolic rate when cutting. But im still worried about any possible negative sides / rebound.

Understandable, I was in your shoes with this issue as well. I read the study you posted as well as other thread such as Dr. Ds..
Now with the study that you posted, it says that 3,3 and 3,5 are different forms (isomers) of T2. But 3,5 does show to cause somewhat suppression, with the amounts not say. I've read this 2 years ago. Now Take a look at this study.

Recently, it was demonstrated that 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) stimulates the resting metabolic rate (RMR), and reduces body-weight gain of rats receiving a high-fat diet. The aim of this study is to examine the effects of chronic T2 administration on basal metabolic rate and body weight in humans. Two euthyroid subjects volunteered to undergo T2 administration. Body weight, body mass index, blood pressure, heart rate, electrocardiogram, thyroid and liver ultrasonography, glycemia, total cholesterol, triglycerides, free T3 (FT3), free T4 (FT4), T2, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) and RMR were evaluated at baseline and at the end of treatment. RMR increased significantly in each subject. After continuing the T2 treatment for a further 3 weeks (at 300 mcg/day), body weight was reduced significantly (p<0.05) (about 4 percent), while the serum levels of FT3, FT4 and TSH, were unchanged. No side effects were observed at the cardiac level in either subject. No significant change was observed in the same subjects taking placebo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22217997

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Understandable, I was in your shoes with this issue as well. I read the study you posted as well as other thread such as Dr. Ds..
Now with the study that you posted, it says that 3,3 and 3,5 are different forms of T2. But 3,5 does show to cause somewhat suppression, with the amounts not say. I've read this 2 years ago. Now Take a look at this study.

Wow... considering this is the latest dated study between the ones i`ve seen and the fact that it was actually performed in euthyroid humans instead of hypo/hyper rats looks very promising! Thanks a lot for bringing it up!

My concern was, since T2 is less active, larger doses of T2 would be required to get the same fat-burning effects as you would get with T3. And although T2 is less suppressive than T3, the doses required to get full effectiveness may be enough to suppress natural thyroid production anyway.
Leading to a scenario that safe dosing would at the same time, be non-effective for fat loss.

Now, i know thats not what the study you posted show(which is great). Im still playing a little devils advocate here. :salook: Just for peace of mind.

Since it has shown to be dose-dependent id imagine tapering off would be beneficial? What do you think?

 

[mattrag]

Wow... considering this is the latest dated study between the ones i`ve seen and the fact that it was actually performed in euthyroid humans instead of hypo/hyper rats looks very promising! Thanks a lot for bringing it up!

My concern was, since T2 is less active, larger doses of T2 would be required to get the same fat-burning effects as you would get with T3. And although T2 is less suppressive than T3, the doses required to get full effectiveness may be enough to suppress natural thyroid production anyway.
Leading to a scenario that safe dosing would at the same time, be non-effective for fat loss.

Now, i know thats not what the study you posted show(which is great). Im still playing a little devils advocate here. :salook: Just for peace of mind.

Since it has shown to be dose-dependent id imagine tapering off would be beneficial? What do you think?

I'd say if you really wanted the effects of T3 and were willing to test out a 3,5 dii product to get those results, would be to follow a T3 protocol until you reach the sides of real T3. Then taper off as one would off T3.
Just a thought, as if one were to get T3 like effects off T2 then most likely it would cause some suppression.

 

[Bamski]

Depending on what type of supp you are going to use that includes 3,3 and/or 3,5... i wouldn't worry too much about suppression. I would go for a product that tells you the EXACT amount of 3,3 or 3,5 you want. SS Shift, PES Alpha T2, and Iforce original Dexaprine tells you those amounts. I've personally used Alpha T2 and Original IF Dexaprine with no repercussions such as lethargy, weight gain ect.. after ceasing use.

 

[BigMikeC]

Sorry if this comes off dumb... if T2 is surpressive and you have to take much more than recomended to get effects close to T3 than whats the advantage of taking it rather than actual t3 which has a lot of research behind it?

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Depending on what type of supp you are going to use that includes 3,3 and/or 3,5... i wouldn't worry too much about suppression. I would go for a product that tells you the EXACT amount of 3,3 or 3,5 you want. SS Shift, PES Alpha T2, and Iforce original Dexaprine tells you those amounts. I've personally used Alpha T2 and Original IF Dexaprine with no repercussions such as lethargy, weight gain ect.. after ceasing use.

Let me know the dose you used and for how long?

How would you rate the effects/positive sides? did you stack it with anything else?

I'd say if you really wanted the effects of T3 and were willing to test out a 3,5 dii product to get those results, would be to follow a T3 protocol until you reach the sides of real T3. Then taper off as one would off T3.
Just a thought, as if one were to get T3 like effects off T2 then most likely it would cause some suppression.

I might have expressed myself poorly, but i didnt mean or expected T3 like effects. Just that you would see results(if any) at a safe level. It was just one of my initial concerns... hypothetical scenario.

Sorry if this comes off dumb... if T2 is surpressive and you have to take much more than recomended to get effects close to T3 than whats the advantage of taking it rather than actual t3 which has a lot of research behind it?

Im not sure about "effects close to T3", but if you can get decent results with no negs, id say its a good deal right?

Thats what i was concerned about. I never said i was expecting T3 effects! lol why you guys doin this?! :01:

But seriously, did you read the paper bamski posted?
"body weight was reduced significantly (p<0.05) (about 4 percent), while the serum levels of FT3, FT4 and TSH, were unchanged. No side effects were observed at the cardiac level in either subject. No significant change was observed in the same subjects taking placebo."

I only wish they had been more specific about "body weight" there....

 

[BigMikeC]

I might have expressed myself poorly, but i didnt mean or expected T3 like effects. Just that you would see results(if any) at a safe level. It was just one of my initial concerns... hypothetical scenario.



Im not sure about "effects close to T3", but if you can get decent results with no negs, id say its a good deal right?

Thats what i was concerned about. I never said i was expecting T3 effects! lol why you guys doin this?!

I was actually asking for my own info. Im intrigued with T2 and haven't yet used it. I've never had sides with T3 but I'm always nervous using it because of how high the risks are when messing with your thyroid.

 

[Bamski]

Let me know the dose you used and for how long? I used Alpha T2, 1 pre-WO and last dose about 5-6 hours later for 3 weeks. Waited 3 Weeks, repeated. For a total of 2 days.

How would you rate the effects/positive sides? The effects were pretty nice, leaned out nicely, a tiny muscle went away but my goal was more for shedding fat and a couple pounds of muscle didn't bother me. I was also in a caloric deficit, so that could been a factor too. Sweating was by far the best during cardio, almost like a water fountain (i TRY to drink 1-1.5 gals of water/day).

Did you stack it with anything else? Nope, the energy by itself was pretty great, but at that time i was in a CKD, so the ketones were treating me nicely.

Answers are in bold.

Sorry if this comes off dumb... if T2 is surpressive and you have to take much more than recomended to get effects close to T3 than whats the advantage of taking it rather than actual t3 which has a lot of research behind it?

Well, T3 being supressive since its the main active form.. It has fat reducing properties but also at the cost of muscle.

In contrast, the iodothyronines were almost equivalent in their ability to downregulate TRbeta2 mRNA levels in this cell line. Both 3,3'-diiodo-L-thyronine and thyronine exhibited no significant thyromimetic effects on either process. In vivo, doses of T2 and T3 that were equivalent in their induction of hepatic malic enzyme (ME) mRNA did not produce equivalent suppression of circulating TSH, with T2 being only 27% as effective as T3. T2 was up to 500-fold less potent than T3 in displacing [125I]-T3 from in vitro translated specific nuclear receptors (TRs) and GH3 cell nuclear extracts. Electrophoretic mobility shift assays, assessing the ability of T2 to produce dissociation of TRbeta1 homodimers from inverted palindrome T3 response elements, indicated that T2 was also 1000-fold less potent than T3 in this respect. These data confirm that T2 has significant thyromimetic activity, and that this activity is selective both in vivo and in vitro. However, there are no data to support a selective central effect, T2 being relatively more potent in stimulating hepatic ME mRNA than in suppression of TSH in vivo. The basis for this differential thyromimetic activity is not selective affinity of the different TR isoforms for T2, or divergent properties of T2 in competitive binding and functional assays in vitro.

3,5-Diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) has selective t... [J Mol Endocrinol. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

I've never used anything that would cause suppression in my case, but thats a personal choice, as of right now . I've done my homework on the different isomers of T2 (3,3 and 3,5) because they have compared it to T3 in the studies i have read. Since T3 is suppressive (main active form) and while 3,5 is somewhat suppressive and 3,3 has shown not to be..

But going off of the study that i posted earlier today, and HAMinTheTrap quoted

Recently, it was demonstrated that 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine (T2) stimulates the resting metabolic rate (RMR), and reduces body-weight gain of rats receiving a high-fat diet. The aim of this study is to examine the effects of chronic T2 administration on basal metabolic rate and body weight in humans. Two euthyroid subjects volunteered to undergo T2 administration. Body weight, body mass index, blood pressure, heart rate, electrocardiogram, thyroid and liver ultrasonography, glycemia, total cholesterol, triglycerides, free T3 (FT3), free T4 (FT4), T2, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) and RMR were evaluated at baseline and at the end of treatment. RMR increased significantly in each subject. After continuing the T2 treatment for a further 3 weeks (at 300 mcg/day), body weight was reduced significantly (p<0.05) (about 4 percent), while the serum levels of FT3, FT4 and TSH, were unchanged. No side effects were observed at the cardiac level in either subject. No significant change was observed in the same subjects taking placebo

3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine i... [J Biol Regul Homeost Agents. 2011 Oct-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI

Thyroid is a big deal, thats why i chose to go the "safer" route with my body after doing some reading. My mother has a slight case of hypothyroidism and after tossing a couple questions to her doc. I decided to give it a go. This is what i HAVE READ, It is SOLELY up to YOU.

 

[ironjunkie91]

Thanks that's pretty much what I'm looking for

 

[Bamski]

Thanks that's pretty much what I'm looking for

Anytime! It seems like the use of 3,3 and 3,5 is starting to rise again.

 

[ironjunkie91]

I think I'll try it out. I'm waiting for T3 to arrive. If your gonna be suppressed might as well use something with a proven track record imo. Suppression is suppression no matter how minor!

 

[justhere4comm]

Look forward to your T3 experience. Going to log it?

 

[ironjunkie91]

Yes I plan to log probably do weekly updates with dosage/sides and effectiveness ect. First time with thyroid meds. Hope it goes well. I'm hypothyroid already so I hope to get a lot of benifits from this run. Wish me luck!

 

[justhere4comm]

Tag me in your log. Will follow!

 

[ironjunkie91]

Will do!

 

[ironjunkie91]

Sorry for not following up with a log just seemed pointless started with one cap to see how I felt (100mcg) for one week and got up to 4 caps and didn't feel anything other than MAYBE placebo came straight off and nothing changed at least nothing I would blame on the supp.

 

[Bamski]

Sorry for not following up with a log just seemed pointless started with one cap to see how I felt (100mcg) for one week and got up to 4 caps and didn't feel anything other than MAYBE placebo came straight off and nothing changed at least nothing I would blame on the supp.

How long did you use it? Plus you have to take into consideration that you were already hypo in that category.. Also what brand?

 

[ironjunkie91]

That's my point I assumed that a supp would give positive benefits at least a noticeable difference and nothing happened no body temp increase nothing it was San T2 started 12-1-16 and came off 1 week before my labs not sure exactly the date. I've said before maybe my stuff was just bunk but for the sake of spending $$ I'd stick with T3.