I tried to look up the old rpn havoc thread
Had all cycle info and what supporting supps and such, if anyone has it id appreciate it!
Had all cycle info and what supporting supps and such, if anyone has it id appreciate it!
I think you may be thinking of another board. That one has a very detailed write up of havoc and supporting sups. It's still there.i have seen this, i remember how helpful the old thread was an wanted to take a look back, still can not find it.
Cant remember if it was something like havoc Q&A or what...
Guide lacks info, Clomid is better than Tamox and Torem...gotta make the note of Blood pressure and acne there. Cycle assist is great, but adding higher dosed fish oils, CoQ10 , celery Seed and lower sat fats on cycle is essential...some people can't stand the BP spikes of epi. Not to mention even if Inhibit-P is great for helping in acne situations , dosing acnedren on cycle too along with it might be best.I'll try and find that thread, in the mean time take a look at this
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/214859-cycles-beginners-please.html
Most of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.It never says run 2 AIs. And clomid is very weak. Torem and nolva at low dosage will **** on clomids chest at low dose. And its a guide to help them. Not tell them what to do. Some people don't get acne or little acne. Im not gonna tell some one to use an acne product if it isn't necessary for everyone. If they are worried about acne they can post and let me know. And acnedren is nice. And do you think most people asking about PHs even take fish oils or know what CoQ10 , celery Seed do. I'll make some adjustments to the thread. Make you happy.
I have had Nolva on the contrary, and like I said and you didn't get Gregory:yea I was going to add the tuned sports bible. And at actually being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator nolva is better. As far as HTPA clomid is better. That's why both are used on very suppressive cycles. And your comparing them doing completely different things. As acting as a SERM nolva at 20mg, is way more effective then clomid at 20mg, or even the typical 25mg. You haven't tried them either.. lol. And neither has any doctor. Well im going to go do some updates on the thread, Ill send you a PM when im finished so you can tell me what you think.
http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_2012/DaRos_512_518.htmyea I was going to add the tuned sports bible. And at actually being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator nolva is better. As far as HTPA clomid is better. That's why both are used on very suppressive cycles. And your comparing them doing completely different things. As acting as a SERM nolva at 20mg, is way more effective then clomid at 20mg, or even the typical 25mg. You haven't tried them either.. lol. And neither has any doctor. Well im going to go do some updates on the thread, Ill send you a PM when im finished so you can tell me what you think.
It's a 30 year old + study Greg...analyze the whole body of data first. For HTPA and testosterone restoration Clomid (and the study I showed yah) at 25mg is best...I would say 50mg anyway to be on the safe side. Less harsh on the body too, check the whole studies I sent yah.Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
PMID: 640052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
It never says run 2 AIs. And clomid is very weak. Torem and nolva at low dosage will **** on clomids chest at low dose. And its a guide to help them. Not tell them what to do. Some people don't get acne or little acne. Im not gonna tell some one to use an acne product if it isn't necessary for everyone. If they are worried about acne they can post and let me know. And acnedren is nice. And do you think most people asking about PHs even take fish oils or know what CoQ10 , celery Seed do. I'll make some adjustments to the thread. Make you happy.
Both Nolva and Clomid have their pros and cons which is why it really depends on the user and the cycle its being used forMost of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.
List everything they might possibly need if you are gonna make a guide of something you have never tried. Fact is they can pick what they want from the support supplements, yet it is nice to show what all they might need or simply cite the Tuned Sports bibles there if you want to make it a bit more complete, and add the support supps !
Just did ¬¬! And read the PM thoroughly young padawan!Check PMs, oke:
Haha gregg and I are good pals, we are just trying to find common ground here. I am more of a Clomid supporter, he is a Tamox supporter...we just wanna convert each other !Both Nolva and Clomid have their pros and cons which is why it really depends on the user and the cycle its being used for
¬¬ :booty::werd:
100% it was on this board i guess this thread got a little derailedI think you may be thinking of another board. That one has a very detailed write up of havoc and supporting sups. It's still there.
Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!100% it was on this board i guess this thread got a little derailed
I got a bit carried away...Gregg and I are friendly on PMs...just forgot to take this to PMs and got comfortable discussing it with him here...Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!
Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
Which apparently you won, I just om nom nomed that article, seems Nolva is good after all .Yea Dunn this was a friendly discussion between bros. Its all good! :icon16:
Yes very Mature Gregory , :booty::nana:
No. You GET carried away...often. Relax. It, any of it, is not that important, including you or me.I got a bit carried away...Gregg and I are friendly on PMs...just forgot to take this to PMs and got comfortable discussing it with him here...
Have I ever told yah how scared I am of you? Even more after the last incident we had hehe...(serious, I am not mocking you) I damn near had a heart attack when I saw you posted here...No. You GET carried away...often. Relax. It, any of it, is not that important, including you or me.
Any time I read any of your posts it screams an angry raging young man. Don't get all Napolian complex on us...he pulled his bone apart
he fails to mention toxicity effects and the point he makes on their ability to be an AI is a tad misleading. One wants to restore normal endocrine function, not completely shut down estrogen which nolva has this potential. When taking these into account clomid is clearly the superior SERM for HPTA recovery IMO.Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!
Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
Relax...Have I ever told yah how scared I am of you? Even more after the last incident we had hehe...(serious, I am not mocking you) I damn near had a heart attack when I saw you posted here...
Here's where I bow out ! I can say I have only Forum Log research upon toxicity of them, with some bloods. Sadly my claim was a bit spitballed as we both know Clomid poses Ocular toxicity and Nolva doesn't...Celly has still much to learn it seems :sad:The article addresses testosterone production.
Is there data to support your claim regarding toxicity and does it consider the fact that in contrast to nolva the doses of clomid is often 5x that of nolva?
This point I did address to Greg on PMs , the point of the serm is help restore Homeostasis...in that sense to bring back endogenous testosterone production. For Estrogen control AIs are kept during wet cycles and on their PCTs, and reglardles the cycle there is an AI for that intent on PCT, hence I like the article I brought up for 25mg Clomid effective for restarting endogenous T production...But David Dunn does bring up a point...my toxicity claim was not well founded...:sad:he fails to mention toxicity effects and the point he makes on their ability to be an AI is a tad misleading. One wants to restore normal endocrine function, not completely shut down estrogen which nolva has this potential. When taking these into account clomid is clearly the superior SERM for HPTA recovery IMO.
On toxicity - http://idosi.org/mejsr/mejsr9(1)11/18.pdfThe article addresses testosterone production.
Is there data to support your claim regarding toxicity and does it consider the fact that in contrast to nolva the doses of clomid is often 5x that of nolva?
On toxicity - http://idosi.org/mejsr/mejsr9(1)11/18.pdf
Despite treating with silymarin nolva appears to still be quite hepatoxic
As for effects on estrogen, yes nolva has the potential to be an aromatase inhibitor (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21390495) but this is not necessarily a good thing. Remember the goal in PCT is to restore a normal and healthy endocrine system and completely shutting down estrogen is not going to help with this as you are going to need to have some (normal) amount of estrogen. Hell one might even argue that nolva use can actually SLOW your HPTA recovery.
Lastly, considering we have actual evidence for clomid and its efficiacy for the treatment hypogonadism- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2011.10702.x/abstract
I maintain, clomid is the clear choice here
As I mentioned earlier the issue I was addressing is the matter of best for testosterone stimulation.Some more on nolva
On non-alcoholic fatty liver disease - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1687197911000050
On impotence - http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/11/15/annonc.mdr459.full
ha ~~reppedDont think anyone cares but i found the thread, http://anabolicminds.com/forum/recomp-performance-nutrition/82835-havoc-write-up.html
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