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L-citrullene/Citrullene Malate

uvawahoowa

Well-known member
I remember in a thread awhile back that I think Coop said that L-citrullene was better than citrullene malate. Anyone know if I were to get L-citrullene for the same anaerobic benefits as cit mal how much I would need to dose to get the equivalent of 9g cit mal?
 
most citrulline malate is a 1:1 ratio of L-citrulline + Malic acid. Some cheaper forms are 1:2(citrulline:malic acid).

Assuming you're used to using 9g of 1:1 CM, you'd need 4.5 of pure L-Citrulline to get the same amount of active.
 
most citrulline malate is a 1:1 ratio of L-citrulline + Malic acid. Some cheaper forms are 1:2(citrulline:malic acid).

Assuming you're used to using 9g of 1:1 CM, you'd need 4.5 of pure L-Citrulline to get the same amount of active.

Negative, citrulline malate (1:1) is 57% citrulline by weight so you'd need 5.13g citrulline ;).
 
It's like the internet knows what I am thinking and then it get others to create threads to ask my questions for me... :D
 
Hemavol + Compete = Citrulline explosion.. in a good way ;)
 
I remember in a thread awhile back that I think Coop said that L-citrullene was better than citrullene malate. Anyone know if I were to get L-citrullene for the same anaerobic benefits as cit mal how much I would need to dose to get the equivalent of 9g cit mal?
What L-Citrulline?
Citrulline is a classified nonessential amino acid that is, oddly, neither a component of any major proteins or enzymes. It provides for processes related to the production of energy in the body, and is responsible for the proper functioning of the immune system. Because of the nonessential nature of citrulline, it may not need to be consistently ingested from any dietary sources.

Citrulline is a very unusual amino acid. A variety of biological and chemical reactions define citrulline. This amino acid is formed in the urea cycle with the addition of carbon dioxide, forming ornithine. The process continues as ornithine is combined with aspartic acid to form arginosuccinic acid, which is then further metabolized to the most humanly bioavailable form, L-arginine.

This critical transformation, of citrulline to arginine, is fundamental for maintaining the homeostasis of certain toxicities within the body. Arginine itself is a key component in the formation of urea in the liver. The process of removing nitrogen metabolites from the body are directly dependant upon citrulline’s conversion to arginine. Citrulline, aspartic acid, citric acid, and magnesium work synergistically to remove excessive nitrogen build-up, and aid in the digestion, absorption, and metabolic processes of specific proteins. Watermelon has the highest concentration of citrulline. The rind of the melon contains the most citrulline but it is found throughout. Different species of watermelon have varying amounts. Cucumbers, pumpkins, some melons and certain varieties of gourds also have smaller amounts of citrulline.

What are the benefits/uses?
Citrulline’s main function lies within its ability to provide for the detoxification process (es) of ammonia, and is, furthermore, essential for the excretion of oxidative waste processes in the human body via the urea cycle. It is also responsible for the treatment of Ornithine Transcarbamylase, a urea cycle disorder. Urea cycle disorder is genetic disorder characterized by a deficiency of one of the enzymes needed to sustain the urea cycle. Citrulline is also critical in the improvement of deficiencies associated with the immune system and its overall functioning.

Since Citrulline is a precursor to Arginine, it allows for increased and sustained Nitric Oxide production in the endothelium for support of circulatory function. See L-arginine benefits:

L-Citrulline is an amino acid that supports the body in optimizing blood flow through its conversion to L-arginine and then nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is involved in vasodilatation, and low levels are associated with mental and physical fatigue and sexual dysfunction.

It helps the body to overcome fatigue and stress. The right amount of citrulline levels in the body promote increased energy and ensures normal functioning of the immune system. Citrulline supplements are a natural way to boost your body's defense system. With deficiency in citrulline, fatigue becomes a common problem, thus preventing you to achieve optimal health and wellness.

Citrulline is often recommended for patients suffering from urine problem. Frequent urination, can be treated using this compound. It is capable of minimizing almost every problem related to excessive urination. Citrulline is easy to use and can be prescribed for every age group. Scientific studies have shown, that citrulline can reverse the gradual advancement of atherosclerosis (congestion of arteries). This could mean that citrulline is beneficial to people suffering from cardiovascular diseases.
What is Citrulline Malate

Citrulline malate is a compound which is made by combining citrulline and malate salt or malic acid. Citrulline malate is also known by names like citrulline and citrulline ethyl ester. Various citrulline benefits can be experienced by those who consume citrulline malate in the recommended amount. The most important reason why citrulline malate is mostly popular is the stamina and elated energy levels that it provides for athletes and bodybuilders. It prepares their body to fight with muscle fatigue and boots the performance by enhancing muscle mass and quick recovery level. It is the reason why citrulline malate is often consumed and recommended by people who indulge in weight training and other such intense exercise routines. Citrulline malate side effects are observed in case of its overdose. Citrulline malate removes body toxins and endotoxins like ammonia, lactic acid saturations. All these things affect performance and energy level of a person.

Citrulline is a non-essential amino acid (meaning it cannot be produced by the body) and plays a role in nitrogen balance and metabolic processes. Citrulline is found in the rinds of watermelons and research is currently being conducted to grow watermelons with higher levels of citrulline in the center of the melons due the significant health benefits of citrulline.

Supplemental citrulline malate is a salt form of the amino acid. The malate, or malic acid, is found in fruits such as apples and enhances the effects of citrulline. Malic acid takes part in aerobic cellular respiration where oxygen and a carbon compound (acetyl Co-A) are used to produce immediate energy and CO2 in the mitochondria of the cell. This is called the Kreb’s cycle. Malate conditions the recycling of lactate and pyruvate promoting efficient energy production and protecting muscles from fatigue.
Citrulline bypasses uptake in the liver and is circulated for distribution to the kidneys, brain, muscle and other tissues for conversion to arginine.

What are the benefits/uses?

Citrulline is essential for maintaining correct nitrogen level
It regulates important metabolic processes
It helps maintain the acid-base balance in the body
It strengthens your immune system and thus improves your overall health
Citrulline helps boost energy level and helps avoid muscle fatigue
Citrulline promotes insulin, creatine and growth hormone production
Citrulline malate supplements are considered better than l-arginine supplements
Citrulline helps to remove ammonia from the muscle cells and also from the liver. However, ammonia is a waste product
Citrulline thus acts as a detoxifying agent
Citrulline makes you fit for harder and extensive training
You won't notice any health problems like cramping, bloating or water retention after hard training. It plays an important role in the production of arginine, which stimulates the secretion of human growth hormone and prolactin, helps in bodybuilding, enhances blood flow and relieves stress.
L-citrulline and l-arginine promote heart health, strengthens the immune system and offers energy.
L-citrulline benefits include improved blood flow, improvement in sexual function in both men and women, providing physical and mental relief, reducing stress, improving body metabolism, improving communication between nerve cells and other parts of the body, etc. L-citrulline is also used for Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, sickle cell disease, high blood pressure (it is used to control high blood pressure in children after heart surgery), and diabetes.
Citrulline malate is a salt form of citrulline. Citrulline malate supplements are available in market and are recommended to athletes. Citrulline malate benefits include, improvement in aerobic performance and capacity as it influences lactic acid metabolism and prevents muscle from fatigue. Citrulline malate helps reduce blood acidity and also protects against ammonia poisoning, as it accelerates the removal of ammonia.
According to this the malate is not necessarily undesirable. I notice that USPlabs chose to use L-Citrulline over Citrulline Malate in their JackedMicro. Suppose cost is not a factor why use one over the other or not?
 
Side note: i cannot use citmal on deadlift day ever again. Lower back pumps so bad i had to lie on the floor for a few minutes in the gym.
 
Side note: i cannot use citmal on deadlift day ever again. Lower back pumps so bad i had to lie on the floor for a few minutes in the gym.

I'd avoid using anything that enhances vasodilation on days such as that - deadlifts, squats, et cetera.

Is the end result that...L_-Citrulline is the better purchase than Citruline Malate...???

I think finding a quality citrulline malate product at a reasonable price - like SNS Citrulline Malate - would be much easier than finding a bulk, powdered L-Citrulline product. I feel that the malic acid certainly brings valuable benefits to the table.
 
UncleWade said:
I think finding a quality citrulline malate product at a reasonable price - like SNS Citrulline Malate - would be much easier than finding a bulk, powdered L-Citrulline product. I feel that the malic acid certainly brings valuable benefits to the table.
Ok sounds good man....what makes you say that malic acid benefits it?
 
L-Malate converts into oxaloacetate, releasing the co-enzyme NADH and is ultimately used to produce ATP.
 
Quality Pharma grade L-Citrulline is as easily accessable as quality Pharma grade Citrulline Malate and in my experience equal in cost.

Opinions on whose product you recommend (BTW - SNS does not quantify the ratio of citrulline to malate) was not my question.
 
L-Malate converts into oxaloacetate, releasing the co-enzyme NADH and is ultimately used to produce ATP.

Are you suggesting then that the malate does have it's value. There are other means to produce/increase ATP...no? Does L-malate contribute to NO2 production?
 
David Dunn said:
Quality Pharma grade L-Citrulline is as easily accessable as quality Pharma grade Citrulline Malate and in my experience equal in cost.

Opinions on whose product you recommend (BTW - SNS does not quantify the ratio of citrulline to malate) was not my question.

If they are about equal in cost, wouldn't it be better to just get l citrulline if you are looking specifically for the anaerobic citrulline benefits since you would have to dose at 5g instead of 9g cit mal?
 
Two things that are being overlooked:

-Krebs Cycle intermediates are worthless in healthy individuals. You create them by eating and breathing, and malate isn't rate-limiting in the cycle anyway. Malate may have another key benefit if the dose is high enough, however.
-The delivery form. Malic acid isn't going to yield much bioavailable l-malate in the body.

I also don't know who wrote that write-up, David, but it is rife with errors. Non-essential amino acids can be produced by the body.
 
I don't have a reference for that article but I used it simply to inspire the discussion which is ultimately resulting in the information I am looking for. Thank you for your insight.
 
Is prima forces Citrulline Malate bulk powder worth the money???? Its actually quit cheap.$21.00 for 1000mgs

Is prima force a solid proven company with a good reputation?
 
Jay888999 said:
Is prima forces Citrulline Malate bulk powder worth the money???? Its actually quit cheap.$21.00 for 1000mgs

Is prima force a solid proven company with a good reputation?

This is what I got the first time around, pumps were good but it goes too fast for me to justify buying again since I was dosing at 6g/workout...and true anaerobic benefits start at 9g.
 
Is prima forces Citrulline Malate bulk powder worth the money???? Its actually quit cheap.$21.00 for 1000mgs

Is prima force a solid proven company with a good reputation?

SNS Citrulline Malate is between $22 - $25 for 300g. The quality is top notch and our value is unbeatable.

Oh, and our packaging looks nicer too. :D
 
Agreed. Most studies use a pharmaceutical CM product (Stimol) and while some supplement companies want people to believe it's the citrulline that matters most, the corresponding mechanisms behind the beneficial effects of CM supplementation on muscle performance remain to be elucidated. Anyone aware of the existing research knows that we really don't know the corresponding mechanism (there are many hypothesis though). In fact, if you read the discussion sections of these papers most authors seem to suggest malate may be actually most important.

Which discussions are you referring to? All the ones I've read implicate that citrulline malate's ergogenic benefits are NO-mediated and the whole ammonia/reduction of soreness aspect is also a function of citrulline's effects in the kidney.
 
SNS Citrulline Malate is between $22 - $25 for 300g. The quality is top notch and our value is unbeatable.

Oh, and our packaging looks nicer too. :D
Again, I know where to find product. It was my hope that we could have discussion on the properties of citrulline and malate independently and synergistically without regard to where you can purchase it from what manufacturer.

Additionally, you guys, and the other manufacturers mentioned, make no reference to your ratio of C:M of your product. "The quality is top notch" is subjective in this case as I have no idea what your ratio is.
 
Glad you found it :D

LMK if you need anything else
I'm still unclear if the malate is desirable or not. I understand it may have it's place, but in regard to stamina, endurance and NO2 do I want it? What does it benefit me? Additionally, if malate does influence the production of ATP, surely I can get that from creatine (creatine nitrate) if that was my goal.

Sorry if I missed this somewhere along the discussion.
 
I'm still unclear if the malate is desirable or not. I understand it may have it's place, but in regard to stamina, endurance and NO2 do I want it? What does it benefit me? Additionally, if malate does influence the production of ATP, surely I can get that from creatine (creatine nitrate) if that was my goal.

Sorry if I missed this somewhere along the discussion.

I'll touch on this when I'm back from class. Ingredients can be additive/synergistic/diminishing with respect to their effects on ATP; in other words, even if two ingredients boost ATP production, if they are influencing two different aspects of the production process, then it's not like one nullifies the benefits of the other.
 
In for more discussion.
 
For example this disussion:






I believe you've read Sureda et al. (2010) but they were mainly interested in citrulline's metabolism during exercise. Since we really don't know the corresponding mechanisms behind the (potential) beneficial effects of CM supplementation on muscle performance I wouldn't drop the malate.



Thanks for the link. It seems like the authors couldn't trace a connection back to the malate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one does not exist. Conversely, citrulline had a pretty clear MOA, and I think the reduced ATP cost is definitely, at least in part, NO-mediated (see nitrate studies).

Also note that malate aided patients with asthenia. I, again, would not expect krebs cycle intermediates to be of much use in healthy populations.
 
Agreed, but the importance of citrulline's effect on muscle performance remains to be elucidated.
Regarding the NO-hypothesis, I've yet to see any evidence citrulline supplement (or a double dose of arginine) is an effective way to increase NO in healthy individuals. It's likely the discrepancy between 'positive' and 'negative' arginine/citrulline studies is due to asymmetric dimethylarginine concentrations:


This would also explain arginine's (as you know citrulline is a precursor of arginine) lack of effects on hemodynamics, blood flow and NO in healthy resistance athletes (Willoughby et al. (2011)


They were actually treated with Stimol (citrulline malate)

Actually, 4 years ago, citrulline's role in elevating NO in healthy individuals was elucidated. Read the full text of this if you have access. Otherwise, PM me: Invalid Link Removed. I don't think a comparison can be drawn with arginine because the negative studies on oral administration far outweigh the positive, whereas the citrulline/citrulline malate studies in healthy males seem to all point to some sort of benefit. We also know that arginine has issues in the gut, and that arginase is tightly regulated. The same has not been shown for argininosuccinate synthetase.

As for the stimol, that was my point. I don't suspect malate would have a similar effect in well-nourished populations with properly functioning metabolisms and means of energy production.
 
Good catch! I actually referenced that paper, but only skimmed down to the conclusion because I needed the asymmetric arginine/ADMA ratio quote. Subjects were recruited based on relatively high ADMA concentrations, although it was still within the normal range.
It does make me wonder why 3g citrulline (citrulline is about twice as effective in raising plasma arginine levels as arginine itself) is effective to increase NO while 12g AAKG isn't in Willoughby's study. Could exercise play a role?



I know, but how can you differentiate the effects of malate and citrulline if all studies used citrulline malate?


Exercise certainly may play a role, given that untrained subjects have been demonstrated to benefit from arginine whereas trained athletes consistently show no changes in NO or performance.

This paper, if you have the time to read it, goes very deep into the issue: Invalid Link Removed

From the study:

Invalid Link Removed





My personal belief is that heavy exogenous arginine regulation is evolutionary, given arginine's highly significant role in neonatal and early childhood development.


Castillo, L. "Plasma Arginine and Citrulline Kinetics in Adults Given Adequate and Arginine-Free Diets."
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 90.16 (1993): 7749-753. Print.
 
SNS Citrulline Malate is between $22 - $25 for 300g. The quality is top notch and our value is unbeatable.

Oh, and our packaging looks nicer too. :D

Is SNS CM bonded? Or a mixture?

Again, I know where to find product. It was my hope that we could have discussion on the properties of citrulline and malate independently and synergistically without regard to where you can purchase it from what manufacturer.

Additionally, you guys, and the other manufacturers mentioned, make no reference to your ratio of C:M of your product. "The quality is top notch" is subjective in this case as I have no idea what your ratio is.

I would go with bonded CM simply because you will have a better idea of how much citrulline and malic acid you are getting. As far as a performance difference, I am not sure if blended CM vs. bonded CM would result in much (if any) of a difference. Based off anecdotal reports it doesnt. With bonded CM the bond is going to be ionic and the two will separate instantly in solution so from this I would tend to believe blended CM is just as good as bonded CM performance wise. The only difference I see between the two, is that with bonded CM you will get a 2:1 ratio of the two as opposed to a blend you really wont know but malic acid is significantly cheaper so most likely the blend will be more malic acid then citrulline.

I'm still unclear if the malate is desirable or not. I understand it may have it's place, but in regard to stamina, endurance and NO2 do I want it? What does it benefit me? Additionally, if malate does influence the production of ATP, surely I can get that from creatine (creatine nitrate) if that was my goal.

Sorry if I missed this somewhere along the discussion.

The literature supports CM, so based simply off that I would just go with CM and also go with bonded CM so I was sure on the amount I was getting.
 
jewgold said:
soo..sns cm is the way to go over primaforce brand?

I can't speak about primaforce cm. but in general bias set aside I enjoy our products more.
 
Invalid Link Removed

Citrulline Malate is great :) (full review above of SNS's Citrulline Malate)
 
TheHardOne said:
Invalid Link Removed

Citrulline Malate is great :) (full review above of SNS's Citrulline Malate)

Thanks its one of the nicer cm powders I have used.
 
Might be a little off topic but what is preferred for the "pump" (nitric oxide enhancing effect)

Argenine (AAKG)
Agmatine Sulfate
Cittrullene

and what doses?
 
EWolfe08 said:
Might be a little off topic but what is preferred for the "pump" (nitric oxide enhancing effect)

Argenine (AAKG)
Agmatine Sulfate
Cittrullene

and what doses?

Scratch the arginine for pump... Nitrates work well for pumps.
 
Scratch the arginine for pump... Nitrates work well for pumps.
IME not so much - Invalid Link Removed

FWIW - you will most frequently find nitrates to ne accompanied by citrulline, citruline malate, agmatine and of course the creatine nitrate nitrate.

IME - the nitrate itself does produce stamina, endurance and intra-set recovery but little (if any) to no pump.
 
David Dunn said:
IME not so much - Invalid Link Removed

I was following that for a bit. haven't been in for a while but I thought you were digging potassium nitrate....?
 
Also I dig all your threads... I silently stalk you through your posts. It's not creepy I just think you have nice skin ; )

Seriously tho, you and I think a lot alike on terms of ingredients you're interested in and what you want to know about them. 95% of the time if I'm curious about an ingredient, I just look at your recent posts and boom, there it is lol! Thanks!
 
It's my pleasure. I'm an engineer by trade and have a root cause and effect analytical mind...if and when I use it. :)
 
I'm an engineer

Ouch!

Hows the job market by you? My wife is an architect and my brother in-law is an engineer and for both of them it has been a rough couple of years
 
I know its tough (lean) and competetive out there. I am at a fabrication company in AZ with low level technical competence. I keep my head low and nose to the grind stone. I'm here three years after several too many months of unemployment. I have experties in metrology and machining/manufacturing processes which they sorely need. I am under utilized but blessed and grateful to be employed.
 
We can relate. For a whole she was at a glass place doing mechanical type drawling for equipment. Not really her field but she knew CAD and there was no other work so she took the pay cut and had to do it. Been at 2 architectural firms that went under and where she is now is significantly bigger than the last places but an almost 2hr commute. I feel bad for people in you guys fields that relay directly on the economy. I am lucky enough to be in the healthcare field which is never really affected by the market.
 
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