Sleeping like an oxymoron on supps...

[SixandaHalf]

I've always found it sort of odd that people rave about knowing they got deeper sleep because they had more vivid dreams. In actuality, as sleep becomes deeper, dreams become harder and harder to recall. Having vivid or crazy dreams all night is a sign of increased or more frequent REM stages which is of the lightest forms of sleep in which during your mind recharges itself, not your body. It is actually the stages 3-4 in which your body does most of its repairs and dreams are very hard to recall although you still have them. So many body builders know their bodies so well and I still hear this same oxymoron all the time. I have put on mass and made great gains using products that gave me vivid dreams, but I'll be the first to say that its quite the opposite of "deep" sleep when you are able to recall wild ass dreams.

I not saying certain products don't give you better sleep but, doing a little scientific research on the sleep cycle and its characteristics sure makes tons of reviews sound back-asswards in the "deep" sleep category.

 

[WPD111]

hmmmm.:gas: interesting

 

[SixandaHalf]

I just always thought it was odd. On a related topic... had crazy dreams all last night that I can remember pretty well... and I'm dead tired today like I didn't sleep well. Probably from the long, awesome weekend I had though.

 

[th3futur3]

I've always found it sort of odd that people rave about knowing they got deeper sleep because they had more vivid dreams. In actuality, as sleep becomes deeper, dreams become harder and harder to recall. Having vivid or crazy dreams all night is a sign of increased or more frequent REM stages which is of the lightest forms of sleep in which during your mind recharges itself, not your body. It is actually the stages 3-4 in which your body does most of its repairs and dreams are very hard to recall although you still have them. So many body builders know their bodies so well and I still hear this same oxymoron all the time. I have put on mass and made great gains using products that gave me vivid dreams, but I'll be the first to say that its quite the opposite of "deep" sleep when you are able to recall wild ass dreams.

I not saying certain products don't give you better sleep but, doing a little scientific research on the sleep cycle and its characteristics sure makes tons of reviews sound back-asswards in the "deep" sleep category.

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If this is true. Which I am not doubting you of the truth. Then this is extremely interesting.

 

[SixandaHalf]

I came to this conclusion during my first run of DAA/ Triazole/ Activate X... I could not sleep well and what sleep I did get was filled with crazy dreams. After hearing all these people rant and rave about crazy dreams and deep sleep i wanted to figure out if that was really a sign of deep sleep, which I concluded it was just the opposite.

If I was ever on pain killers from past injuries I find the same exact thing happens to me. Some people sleep better with opiates and some can't sleep well. I'm wondering if there is any correlation between people who have trouble sleeping on cycle and people that have trouble sleeping from things like opiates. I needed to take melatonin to get to sleep every night during the cycle (which actually worked really well!)

I wasn't ever necessarily tired from it the next day but I feel that was attested to elevated hormone levels keeping me energized (even if it was just a dinky natty cycle)

 

[JN230]

hmmm thats crazy but I guess if its proven then you can't argue.

are there any studies showing that people had crazy dreams in stage 3 or 4 of sleep?

If you think about this also,

When I take melatonin and ZMA (nightly) I have really crazy dreams but it is within my first hour of sleep and within my last hour of sleep, I usually awake from these dreams.

Meaning maybe my first and last hours of sleep are REM while my or 6-7hrs are stage 2+

Does everyone else notice their dream periods are near them waking up?

 

[SixandaHalf]

Generally you will have 90 minute intervals of complete cycles. I think some people just have longer periods of REM at the end of each cycle and shorter deep stages. REM is mostly dominant towards awakening it seems. I think thats why people remember dreams right when they wake up as if they were just in the dream seconds ago.

I think certain supps just make you encounter more REM than deep sleep, which I wouldn't see beneficial for release of GH and such. It seems that takes place during stages 3-4... hmm

Wiki:

It has been shown that sleep—more specifically, slow-wave sleep (SWS)—does affect growth hormone levels in adult men. During eight hours' sleep, Van Cauter, Leproult, and Plat[48] found that the men with a high percentage of SWS (average 24%) also had high growth hormone secretion, while subjects with a low percentage of SWS (average 9%) had low growth hormone secretion.

 

[JN230]

so how do you increase SWS periods???

melatonin?

 

[mr.cooper69]

When people say the sleep deeply, they're not referring to spending more time in deep-wave sleep...

 

[Jiigzz]

Would make sense considering whenever I hit snooze on my allarm, then fall back asleep for 10mins, I dream during that time...

 

[mr.cooper69]

Would make sense considering whenever I hit snooze on my allarm, then fall back asleep for 10mins, I dream during that time...

If you are truly waking up when you hit the alarm, you would have to complete one full sleep cycle before re-entering REM. I suspect this isn't the case with those half-asleep snooze hits.

 

[SixandaHalf]

If you are truly waking up when you hit the alarm, you would have to complete one full sleep cycle before re-entering REM. I suspect this isn't the case with those half-asleep snooze hits.

Maybe not REM per say... but dreaming is certainly possible during that 5 min snooze. You don't have to go into REM to dream. Sometimes when I'm really tired in my chair and I start to fall alseep for 30 secs or so I will begin to dream. Entire sleep cycle not required.

 

[SixandaHalf]

so how do you increase SWS periods???

melatonin?

Um... Not really sure how to answer, I don't know. When your body needs more SWS... I would assume it utilizes that form of sleep and the only thing that would hold it back are unnatural influences on your sleeping patterns.

Really starting to disagree with supps that give you wild dreams would help you recover better. Thats an oxymoron. REM is for the mind, stages 3-4 repair the body. Not many dreams can be recalled in 3-4 so...

But hey, I'm no doctor. It may just remain a mystery. I know I saw great gains during my natty test run and sleep suffered due to light REM constantly and it was hard to fall asleep. Who knows... ?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Maybe not REM per say... but dreaming is certainly possible during that 5 min snooze. You don't have to go into REM to dream. Sometimes when I'm really tired in my chair and I start to fall alseep for 30 secs or so I will begin to dream. Entire sleep cycle not required.

That is true, but re-read his post and the impression he was under.

 

[SixandaHalf]

That is true, but re-read his post and the impression he was under.

Yea, I see where you're coming from. I guess he may have thought he was entering REM in that 5 min.

I would like to run a sleep log the next time I run a cycle that changes my sleep patterns. Just wish I didn't get so much acne from these runs or I'd be more willing. Summer is for looking good, winter is for that for me I guess.

 

[RenegadeRows]

This is a very interesting conversation.

I remember reading somewhere that benzos don't allow you to reach a deep sleep, which is interesting because most people will be knocked out by them for at least 6-8 hours. Having taken them for a short period of time, I can relate to the fact that, even though your "knocked out", you feel unrested in the morning. Perhaps because it's not a true sleep, but an induced coma lol.

Sleep is truly an interesting subject, and yet an illusive one. I'd love to read more on the links between supplements vs "truly" deep sleep / rest.

Blue GrowtH is a GH/sleep product that CL makes. Users tend to have more vivid dreams on them. However, they also (myself included) seem more refreshed and well rested when using it. I think this subject could go either way...and it depends alot on the individual. Reps to the OP for an informative and thought provoking post.

 

[machorox123]

Really interesting!! That means i get quality sleep cuz I rarely ever wake up in the middle of night and don't ever remember a damn thing

 

[SixandaHalf]

I have to say that I remember dreaming a lot last night but feel very refreshed after resting just 7 hrs. Came close to vomit-world after yesterdays brutal workout too.

There is definitely a correlation between the stages of sleep and types of re-cooperation your body undergoes. I would think that after a hard day of tedious mind related labor you would undergo more REM sleep and on days more physically taxing you would experience more deep sleep where GH and test is produced. Sleep to me is obviously the most important part of body composition because of this reason. As far as the mechanism that your body used to choose which sleep you will have the most is a mystery to everyone I believe.

And yes, RenegadeRows, I take prescribed benzos on occasion as well and can somewhat attest to this but not nearly as much as pain killer keep me out of deep sleep.

How can a supplement make the human body undergo better sleep than it does on its own? What IS better sleep?