Guest viewing is limited

Rehashing an old debate. Benefits of timed Pro-inflammatory States

Whacked

Whacked

Well-known member
First off, it's important to note that I fully subscribe the mindset that inflammation is generally "bad" (way beyond just musculoskeletal issues) and believe many diseases are either directly caused by/originate from or thrive in inflammatory states. So, as a rule, quelling it at all costs is my objective.

Well, over the years I have added many supps and food that support this. Unfortunately, getting any sort of pump in the gym has been been nearly impossible despite attempting to successfully time my anti-inflammatory supps/food intake.

I know a "pump" is overrated but I DO believe an acute, short-lived muscle pump is good for growth (stretching the fascia, growth factors, etc)

Even Creatine+ Agamatine+ Hemavol have to be combined and taken is DOUBLE-doses to experience any pump at all.

I'm a low carb guy so don't waste your time advising me to up my carbs (lots of studies out there espousing low carb dieting solely for its ability to reduce systemic inflammation).

So, back to the original objective of my thread "timed inflammatory adjuncts":

Should I invest in a product like X-Factor (pre-w/o ONLY)?
Are pumps, vasculature and fascia stretching, etc as valuable as I currently assume?
 
it's normal to have diminished pumps if you're low carb.
The best you can do is taking double dose hemavol.
 
First, when discussing inflammation it is important to differentiate between chronic and systemic inflammation from acute inflammation. Inflammation is a normal response from our body and is necessary. It only becomes a problem when it is chronic inflammation.

As for pumps, have you tried nitrates?

Also FYI, appnut has a limited run pump product in the works that should be debuting very soon ;)
 
Just drink a ton of water and do an ass-load of reps. You will get a pump that way. If not, who cares, pumps are over rated. I don't believe they actually do anything to help you gain muscle. Sure it can feel nice, but that is about it. Also I believe they can be detrimental in that if your too pumped you may not be able to workout any further until your pump goes away.
 
T-Bone said:
Just drink a ton of water and do an ass-load of reps. You will get a pump that way.
Click to expand...
But it wouldn't help him get ass-ripped and huge.

T-Bone said:
If not, who cares, pumps are over rated. I don't believe they actually do anything to help you gain muscle. Sure it can feel nice, but that is about it. Also I believe they can be detrimental in that if your too pumped you may not be able to workout any further until your pump goes away.
Click to expand...
that is true.
 
JudoJosh said:
First, when discussing inflammation it is important to differentiate between chronic and systemic inflammation from acute inflammation. Inflammation is a normal response from our body and is necessary. It only becomes a problem when it is chronic inflammation.

As for pumps, have you tried nitrates?

Also FYI, appnut has a limited run pump product in the works that should be debuting very soon ;)
Click to expand...

This, inside and out. There are a ton of inflammatory pathways/cascades, and yes, some may indeed be beneficial for muscular hypertrophy.

Oh, and pumps really aren't valuable. They are the by-product of the ergogenic vasodilation that pump products confer. No reason to pursue them to this degree, but I do agree that nitrates are the best option for someone who does not respond to endogenous compounds involved in NO systems.
 
Thanks fellas

Best Nitrates out there right now are.......?
 
No, don't buy a beet supplement unless you plan on taking the bottle at once. Try to get Thermolife C-Bol. If not, go cheap: VPX Powershock can be had for 11 bucks
 
Thanks Coop!
 
Whacked said:
Invalid Link Removed

Good enough?
.
Click to expand...

You want to get the beetroot juice, not capsules. This is because a conversion needs to takes place via saliva on your tongue. IIRC, the serving suggested is 500ml so you would need to buy in bulk to make it cost effective for you.

Another (better) option would be to just simply increase your veggie intake. In one study the dosage of nitrate was 0.1 mmol/kg/day, which is pretty reachable by just increasing veggie intake IMO.

SPINACH FTW!!!!
 
I'm getting a bit confused. Are we saying the pump is overrated yet still has some value or the pump has no value at all (other than psychological)? I'll admit I haven't done much of my own research on the subject.

Food for thought: Invalid Link Removed

Although many consider the pump a temporary condition that's strictly cosmetic, this belief may be shortsighted. Studies have demonstrated that a hydrated cell stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits proteolysis (protein breakdown).

Understand that muscle hypertrophy is ultimately a function of protein balance – synthesize more muscle proteins than you break down and you'll pack on size. The fact that cell swelling simultaneously increases synthesis while reducing degradation is a muscle-building home run!

What drives this swelling-induced hypertrophic response? Increased fluid in muscle fibers causes a stretch of the cell membrane, like an overinflated water balloon. The muscle, in turn, perceives this as a threat to its integrity and responds by initiating an anabolic signaling cascade that ultimately serves to reinforce its ultrastructure.

Unfortunately, no direct studies have attempted to investigate whether these anabolic effects are attained from pump-oriented training. Still, the implied evidence gives reason to believe that it very well may have a positive affect on muscle growth.

Usually targeted movements that keep constant tension on the muscle induce the pump. The occlusion and hypoxia created from "chasing the pump" has been shown to lead to a long list of hypertrophy-boosting mechanisms, and one of these includes increased satellite cell activity, which also increases the muscle cell's ability to continue expanding.
Click to expand...
 
The pump is a by-product of ergogenic products that enhance vasoregulatory function. It may or may not be beneficial, but the performance-enhancing benefits of such products are likely more valuable.

mr.cooper69 said:
Nitrates are actually salts in the manner that we use them in dietary supplements.

Essentially all nitrates are created equal for the purposes of performance enhancement/pumps, as it is the nitrate portion we are concerned about. The benefits will be most profound for endurance work, but there's no reason to believe they can't aid with anaerobic work capacity.

Some studies on the ergogenic benefit:

Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

And I can go on...The effects are well-documented and nitrates appear to aid both aerobic and anaerobic training (sound familiar? See citrulline malate, which boosts endogenous production of NO). In contrast to citrulline malate, nitrates are an exogenous NO source. They don't take part in any heavily regulated pathways in the body, and thus, user-dependent effects and loss of effectiveness over time are mitigated. Furthermore, nitrates have a high half-life (~8 hours). The two downsides to nitrates are that: a. safety can become an issue if they are dosed too high/abused, since they are after all an exogenous NO source, and b. they must be co-administered with a hefty dose of vitamin C in order to prevent carcinogenicity/nitrosation.

With respect to your question, nitrates are nitrates. Some may make the argument that arginine nitrate reduces nitrate tolerance. I would make the argument that nitrate tolerance was never an issue to begin with unless you are dosing nitrates 2-3 times daily for weeks to months (see clinical use of nitrates). All the nitrates you listed are great options for pumps and endurance. My favorite nitrate product, and probably the best formulated, is C-Bol.
Click to expand...
 
throwing it out there..... i liked power shock.

I dont think anyone necessarily addressed the original question of timing a specific pro inflammatory responce to increase muscular hypertrophy. I think if thats the only supplement you take, then by all means definitely go about it. There are interactions with arachiodonic acid and berberine if i remember correctly. So when doing this you should take into consideration half lifes of specific ingredients at may affect the inflammatory process.
 
EBF Inc said:
throwing it out there..... i liked power shock.

I dont think anyone necessarily addressed the original question of timing a specific pro inflammatory responce to increase muscular hypertrophy. I think if thats the only supplement you take, then by all means definitely go about it. There are interactions with arachiodonic acid and berberine if i remember correctly. So when doing this you should take into consideration half lifes of specific ingredients at may affect the inflammatory process.
Click to expand...

Any more info on interaction with berberine?

I ask bc it is being recommended elsewhere and I wonder if it is good or bad.

I highly agree on the nitrates being an option for pump, although the effects on maximizing mitochondria efficiency are more intriguing/beneficial. Awesome stuff Coop.

OP, I get the best pumps from products like hemavol with a lot of water. I train fasted so no carbs involved.
 
For Nitrates get musclefeast's Anabolic Ignite, can't beat the ingredient profile and amount of nitrates for the price.
 
Thanks JD ;)
 
rob112 said:
Any more info on interaction with berberine?

I ask bc it is being recommended elsewhere and I wonder if it is good or bad.

I highly agree on the nitrates being an option for pump, although the effects on maximizing mitochondria efficiency are more intriguing/beneficial. Awesome stuff Coop.

OP, I get the best pumps from products like hemavol with a lot of water. I train fasted so no carbs involved.
Click to expand...
Just effects Prostaglandin production which is one of the ways araxhidonic acid
 
Good stuff thanks peeps
 
EBF Inc said:
Just effects Prostaglandin production which is one of the ways araxhidonic acid
Click to expand...

Interesting, to be honest I've never read aboout that effect. Is it specific to PGF2a production from arachidonic acid in skeletal muscle? If the Vd of berberine does not enable it to reach muscle tissue (which is where the only relevant COX-mediated ArA -> PGF2a takes place for our purposes) then it probably won't be an issue.
 
JudoJosh said:
You want to get the beetroot juice, not capsules. This is because a conversion needs to takes place via saliva on your tongue. IIRC, the serving suggested is 500ml so you would need to buy in bulk to make it cost effective for you.

Another (better) option would be to just simply increase your veggie intake. In one study the dosage of nitrate was 0.1 mmol/kg/day, which is pretty reachable by just increasing veggie intake IMO.

SPINACH FTW!!!!
Click to expand...

I thought I looked into this along time ago and found that the amount of spinach needed to reach the 500mL level was outrageous.

Whacked are you in the UK? There is a nice beet root juice product there called beet-it that ships free in the UK. Never tried it but looks good.

The new diving study on nitrates is pretty Badass fwiw.

Low carb is whack. :-)
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Interesting, to be honest I've never read aboout that effect. Is it specific to PGF2a production from arachidonic acid in skeletal muscle? If the Vd of berberine does not enable it to reach muscle tissue (which is where the only relevant COX-mediated ArA -> PGF2a takes place for our purposes) then it probably won't be an issue.
Click to expand...

Just type berberine arachidonic avid into google. It's effects I believe are on COX-2
 
EBF Inc said:
Just type berberine arachidonic avid into google. It's effects I believe are on COX-2
Click to expand...

I'm always hesitant to make any conclusions of in vitro data on berberine due to the fact that its metabolites are responsible for much of berberine's observed effects.
 
Based off of the in vitro studies, would you be taking berberine with ARA?(open to all to answer)

ARA isn't cheap :D
 
BCAA nitrates (ingredient list) - never heard of this before. Same effect?

JudgementDay said:
For Nitrates get musclefeast's Anabolic Ignite, can't beat the ingredient profile and amount of nitrates for the price.
Click to expand...
 
See quote on first page: same effect.

Rob, I wouldn't dose them concurrently, and I still think berberine is best used in the context of a high carb meal on a cutting diet.
 
Thanks Coop

Going with the Powershock (I forgot to mention I am not looking for a crratine product - CBOL)

mr.cooper69 said:
Try to get Thermolife C-Bol. If not, go cheap: VPX Powershock can be had for 11 bucks
Click to expand...
 
Whacked said:
BCAA nitrates (ingredient list) - never heard of this before. Same effect?
Click to expand...

I believe it's a different Nitrate ratio in the BCAA Nitrates. You won't get even close to the pump with Powershock as you do with either Anabolic Ignite or C-Bol.
 
Well that defeats the whole purpose! LOL

Coop: You owe me $22.99! I just ordered :p

j/k

JD: on a serious note, Im not looking for a product with creatine. Thanks tho
 
JudgementDay said:
I believe it's a different Nitrate ratio in the BCAA Nitrates. You won't get even close to the pump with Powershock as you do with either Anabolic Ignite or C-Bol.
Click to expand...

This isn't true. The MW of BCAAs are near identical to creatine. You may even get more of a pump given that there are 3g of BCAA nitrates
 
mr.cooper69 said:
This isn't true. The MW of BCAAs are near identical to creatine. You may even get more of a pump given that there are 3g of BCAA nitrates
Click to expand...

From what I remember when Musclefeast were selling BCAA Nitrate in bulk, you could take up to something like 20g per serving. For the Creatine Nitrate it was only 3g max. I was to believe some products contain a different amount of Nitrate to Creatine ratio, as the same they can make with BCAA's.

I don't see the full amount of BCAA Nitrate per serving with power shock, but I do remember dosing 2 scoops of that pre-workout and didn't come close to APS Creatine Nitrate or MuscleFeasts Anabolic Ignite.
 
Having used both Anabolic Ignite and Powershock, in my opinion AI is leagues ahead of Powershock if you're chasing the mythical pump.
 
Not apples to apples comparison though.

Ignite has creatine and Powershock does not.

southpaw23 said:
Having used both Anabolic Ignite and Powershock, in my opinion AI is leagues ahead of Powershock if you're chasing the mythical pump.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top