Creatine Nitrate?

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    I have used C-Bol and it's probably the best CN formula on the market but I don't like the carcinogenic potential of CN. I have found that I can get just as good a pump using Beta Alanine plus CM and I also receive the health benefits associated with both products.

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    Anything with nitrates in it just makes me want to go to sleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Anything with nitrates in it just makes me want to go to sleep.
    anything with nitrates makes me want to lift...

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    SAN's Fierce stacked with citrulline malate has produced a marked increase in performance and endurance.
    Fierce is definitely one of my favorites. I have also noticed that quality of citrulline malate varies from brand to brand. Certain brands (won't name any) use a very high amount of malate with very limited citrulline. It meets label claims, sure, but it is far less effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    anything with nitrates makes me want to lift...
    Same thing with agmatine unless I'm eating a ton of carbs. I mean agmatine also makes me sleepy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Same thing with agmatine unless I'm eating a ton of carbs. I mean agmatine also makes me sleepy.
    I was about to say, I think it's related to your diet + insulin "sensitizers"/BP-lowering ingredients.
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    Creatine mono + baking soda
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Fierce is definitely one of my favorites. I have also noticed that quality of citrulline malate varies from brand to brand. Certain brands (won't name any) use a very high amount of malate with very limited citrulline. It meets label claims, sure, but it is far less effective.
    Sounds like inside information there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Fierce is definitely one of my favorites. I have also noticed that quality of citrulline malate varies from brand to brand. Certain brands (won't name any) use a very high amount of malate with very limited citrulline. It meets label claims, sure, but it is far less effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by PrepNwa23 View Post
    Sounds like inside information there.
    Help us out! I dont want poor quality citrulline malate
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    This ^^^
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    He can't really share that information with you. Potential defamation suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    He can't really share that information with you. Potential defamation suit.
    defamation for presenting facts? that is NOT defamation . . .

    PMs Mr. Cooper!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by p5sky View Post
    defamation for presenting facts? that is NOT defamation . . .

    PMs Mr. Cooper!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    HQ.
    LOL .. . . HQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by schizm View Post
    I'm using some of this now, tossed in with some stim'd pre's...and just got in a tub of the Launch Pills... <3 CN...
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Dude I also recently got the Launch Pills after seeing the top notch profile. But my goodness, it may be in the top 5 worst preworkouts I've ever tried. The stim effect felt like <40mg caffeine and I didn't get the endurance boost that I typically experience with Cit Mal or CN. I would love to hear your thoughts, as my only present theory is the tablet delivery system inefficient.
    ^^^

    It's funny, because Cy and I just talked about this, and our situations were pretty much identical. I'm going to give them another shot tomorrow on an emptier stomach (last time was only 1-1.5 hours after a small-med meal), and I'll report back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by p5sky

    LOL .. . . HQ
    Lol found the thread. Was like good info, then read up and was like... That was random
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Nitrates are actually salts in the manner that we use them in dietary supplements.

    Essentially all nitrates are created equal for the purposes of performance enhancement/pumps, as it is the nitrate portion we are concerned about. The benefits will be most profound for endurance work, but there's no reason to believe they can't aid with anaerobic work capacity.



    And I can go on...The effects are well-documented and nitrates appear to aid both aerobic and anaerobic training (sound familiar? See citrulline malate, which boosts endogenous production of NO). In contrast to citrulline malate, nitrates are an exogenous NO source. They don't take part in any heavily regulated pathways in the body, and thus, user-dependent effects and loss of effectiveness over time are mitigated. Furthermore, nitrates have a high half-life (~8 hours). The two downsides to nitrates are that: a. safety can become an issue if they are dosed too high/abused, since they are after all an exogenous NO source, and b. they must be co-administered with a hefty dose of vitamin C in order to prevent carcinogenicity/nitrosation.

    With respect to your question, nitrates are nitrates. Some may make the argument that arginine nitrate reduces nitrate tolerance. I would make the argument that nitrate tolerance was never an issue to begin with unless you are dosing nitrates 2-3 times daily for weeks to months (see clinical use of nitrates). All the nitrates you listed are great options for pumps and endurance. My favorite nitrate product, and probably the best formulated, is C-Bol.
    How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

    I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:

    Power Shock Supplement Facts

    Serving Size: 12.5 grams (1 Scoop)
    Servings per Container: 28


    Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
    Calories 36


    Total Carbohydrates 1g 0%
    Protein 8g 16%
    Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 2.5mg 125%

    Propietary Essential Amino Acid Blend:

    L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine, L-Lysine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Threonine, L-Valine, L-Histidine, L-Methionine
    8,330mg **

    Propietary Designer Amino Acid Blend:

    L-Leucine Nitrate, L-Valine Nitrate, L-Isoleucine Nitrate, Beta-Alanine, L-Citrulline Malate, Anserine (beta-alanyl-1-methylhistidine), L-Citrulline Nitrate, Beta-Alanine Nitrate
    1,965mg **


    BTW...this stuff is far too sweet for my taste and I'd prefer not to have and pay for all the EAA's included JMHO
    My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

    I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

    I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:



    My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

    I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

    Thanks.
    You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance. A lot of people never go above 500mg, many can't due to low BP issues. Usually you can assume that 1 gram creatine nitrate has between 300-500mg nitrates. I'm guessing a similar amount in one serving of Powershock. You could double dose as an experiment, but you may run into issues like lightheadedness or simply diminishing returns. I believe mr.cooper routinely double doses nitrate products with no issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

    I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:

    My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

    I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

    Thanks.
    In a prop blend its kind of difficult but one gram of CN has 312mgs of nitrates and amino/taurine nitrates have about 256 if i remember correctly. If i had to choose one nitrate product for efficiency and cost it would be Powershock

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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball

    You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance. A lot of people never go above 500mg, many can't due to low BP issues. Usually you can assume that 1 gram creatine nitrate has between 300-500mg nitrates. I'm guessing a similar amount in one serving of Powershock. You could double dose as an experiment, but you may run into issues like lightheadedness or simply diminishing returns. I believe mr.cooper routinely double doses nitrate products with no issues.
    That is wrong 1000mgs of nitrates would be too much. There is no deviation in the amount of nitrates in cn...it is 312mg per gram

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic
    You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

    It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly.
    1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

    246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
    246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
    246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
    ______________________________ _________+
    408 mg nitrate

    I'm too lazy to check out all the nitrate and performance studies, but this study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248502) for example used 8mmol daily (~500mg).[/QUOTE]

    Sorry for the dumb question, but benefits of nitrates? Pump and endurance, anything else? Strength and or size benefits over CM?
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    Angelbolic, thanks for taking the time to do that lol.

    Uva, benefits of nitrates are improvements in exercise performance. I'd consider that rather beneficial to a BBer. Nitrates are an exogenous NO source (NO donor, if you will), whereas citrulline malate exploits endogenous pathways and is theoretically subjected to higher enzymatic regulation. However, citrulline malate does confer benefits that nitrates do not, such as soreness reduction by virtue of bicarbonate reabsorption in the kidney.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Angelbolic, thanks for taking the time to do that lol.

    Uva, benefits of nitrates are improvements in exercise performance. I'd consider that rather beneficial to a BBer. Nitrates are an exogenous NO source (NO donor, if you will), whereas citrulline malate exploits endogenous pathways and is theoretically subjected to higher enzymatic regulation. However, citrulline malate does confer benefits that nitrates do not, such as soreness reduction by virtue of bicarbonate reabsorption in the kidney.
    So it would be beneficial to stack a nitrate product with CM? Or would additional exogenous nitrates not produce any additional results?
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    If you're lookin for a hefty dose of nitrates for cheap you should look into "anabolic ignite" by musclefeast. No joke ive only been using this stuff for a couple weeks since ive been cycling off stimulants and it made me realize how awesome creatine nitrate is again since i first used C-bol a couple years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    NP, it didn't take too long

    Regarding nitrates, I'm not convinced they'll turn out to be beneficial in resistance exercise. (for a critical review read http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Abs..._Sports.1.aspx ) At this point in time, there is no evidence an increase in NO corresponds to beneficial effects on relevant endpoints like strength and muscle mass.
    For endurance sports they're quite promising though.
    for me the improved performance and endurance has resulted in improved body composition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericool007 View Post
    If you're lookin for a hefty dose of nitrates for cheap you should look into "anabolic ignite" by musclefeast. No joke ive only been using this stuff for a couple weeks since ive been cycling off stimulants and it made me realize how awesome creatine nitrate is again since i first used C-bol a couple years ago.
    After a second look at that product I believe that is exactly what I am after. The kilo size is a great deal as well. TY!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can also calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

    It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly there is:

    1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

    246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
    246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
    246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
    ______________________________ _________+
    408 mg nitrate in the product

    I'm too lazy to check out all the nitrate and performance studies, but this study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248502) for example used 8mmol daily (~500mg).
    Angel I can guarantee they did not go that high on the nitrates for Powershock. From personal experiences with just about every nitrate based product it is not more than 300mg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    Angel I can guarantee they did not go that high on the nitrates for Powershock. From personal experiences with just about every nitrate based product it is not more than 300mg
    The Beta Alanine was put in the middle as a fluffer for the total dosages and i'm sure the Citrulline nitrate and BA nitrate is extremely small

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Unfortunately personal anecdotes don't really count as evidence. It's about time Thermolife (the patent holder of AA nitrates) puts the money where their mouth is and fund some clinical trials to find out if nitrates really improve body composition.
    Would you not agree that shifting more weight/reps and/or an increased capacity for cardiovascular exercise would translate into improved body composition provided the diet is in check? I doubt there is any direct link between NO and muscle growth. I've seen evidence for both sides of the coin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    That's a fair assumption, but an assumption regardless. We don't really know wether (acute) nitrate supplementation has the capacity of increasing weights/reps or decreasing resting time. Further, we don't know if this mechanism ( a few more reps/sets) really translates into increased muscle mass. It's true that this mechanism is speculated to be (partly) responsible for creatine's effect on strength and bodycomp but OTOH there is an arginine study for example, that shows it increases one strength parameter but doesn't influence body composition.

    It's really hard to make any hard conclusions without a proper trial.
    I don't find it hard to believe that when everything has been exactly static and then I introduce nitrates and there is improved performance (I have data from every single workout for years), improved stamina (I have fixed rest intervals between sets and they have decreased), improved endurance (I have increased my working sets and overall working time) and improved body composition (my body weight is the same with reduced body fat and mid sectional girth as well as increased circumference in my arms and chest and legs) that it can be attributed to nitrates.

    I have done this thing for nearly 10 years - I kind of have an idea when something introduced to my protocol has had an influence.

    Of course I am not a clinic but this is more than anecdotal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    After a second look at that product I believe that is exactly what I am after. The kilo size is a great deal as well. TY!
    No problem bro, it tastes good and mixes better than any other pre workout ive tried. almost like when you add a gatorade packet to water. No BS ingredients either, I feel the tingle from the efficient dose of BA. Amazing pumps, no stimulants, a couple of my friends tried it and love it too. Also 20 bucks for 30 servings I cant believe this PWO isnt recommended more.
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    Some good info ITT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    I understand your argument, but it's impossible to use this as hard evidence. There are so many logs how CEE is better than mono, how ZMA/tribulus increases bench press by 100lbs in 2.5 weeks etc. etc. Yet science has disproven all of these claims. I'm not saying the same is true for nitrates, just that anecdotes are pretty much worthless. No offence.
    I think that Nitrates have better scientific support than CEE/ZMA/Trib...but I get your point. Nitrates are more so in the younger stages of supplements IMO. I understand the want of more studies, but to dismiss until the studies is up to the individual.
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    Is supplementing additional Vit C necessary with all these nitrates?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    Is supplementing additional Vit C necessary with all these nitrates?
    In my opinion, definitely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    In my opinion, definitely.
    how much per day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    how much per day?
    250-500mg co-ingested with your ntirate dose should do.
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    That was my understanding as well, Thx!
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    how much per day?
    At least 200mg of Vit C and a small dose of NAC will also help w/ tolerance

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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

    It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly.
    1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

    246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
    246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
    246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
    246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
    ______________________________ _________+
    408 mg nitrate
    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance.
    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    In a prop blend its kind of difficult but one gram of CN has 312mgs of nitrates and amino/taurine nitrates have about 256 if i remember correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    That is wrong 1000mgs of nitrates would be too much. There is no deviation in the amount of nitrates in cn...it is 312mg per gram
    So, without getting too scientifically and mathematically complicated is it reasonable to assume that a BCAA Nitrate and/or Creatine Nitrate product equates to roughly 30% nitrates.

    Additionally, obviously a BCAA nitrate offers the BCAA itself with the proposed better absorption from the nitrate as well as the nitrate benefits. The same goes with a creatine product - I get the proposed better absorption of creatine (if that is indeed what I want) as well as the nitrate benefits.

    What I am getting at is that if I want nitrates, but NOT creatine, am I better served to use the BCAA nitrates (or other nitrate)? If I want both nitrates and creatine then creatine nitrate would be the best of both worlds?

    I appreciate the insight.
    Thanks.
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