cysteine / acetylcysteine / cystine for muscle soreness / regeneration...?
- 03-21-2012, 08:36 AM
cysteine / acetylcysteine / cystine for muscle soreness / regeneration...?
I've been wondering if anyone talking one of the aminos mentioned above has less muscle soreness / better regeneration.
I've been taking some supplements that heavily deplete sulfur in the body (tyrosine, to name one). I've countering sulfur depletion by taking huge amounts of MSM, which helped a lot... but... few years ago I barely got any muscle soreness, but now when I train, I get lots of it... almost every time. Since then I asked myself why I get heavy muscle soreness...
Now MSM is nothing more then a sulfur donor, but the most effective way to get sulfur in the system would be by taking cystine, because it passes the gut without being destroyed (unlike cysteine), and it does not have side effects acetyl cysteine may have. Cystine gets transformed to cysteine within the cell, and together with glutamate and glycine the cell produces glutathione... the bodies strongest antioxidant. With MSM the body would have to produce cysteine first from the sulfur found within MSM... which it might not be able to do efficient enough.
Now while training muscle gets damaged, and I am thinking that this damage might cause massive oxidative stress that may lead to inflammation which in turn may be a part of muscle soreness... What I know from other cells like cartilage cells that the inflammation signals damaged cells send out in turn through some process ( I can't remember which one exactly) damage healthy cells nearby causing more problems. But in cartilage the metabolism is so slow that this process does not stop, in muscle tissue however metabolism is quite fast so the muscle does still regenerate. So... more oxidative stress through training = more inflammation = more damage = longer regeneration time and more stress. And inflammation = catabolic
So long story short, I think my body has not enough glutathione, and that may be the reason for the massive increase in muscle soreness.
To test the hypothesis, I've been taking acetyl-cysteine and so far I think my muscle soreness is much less...
I am wondering if anyone also noticed better regeneration / less muscle soreness through cysteine/cystine/acetylcysteine? acetyl-cysteine might be a great extra to a pre-workout drink if it indeed helps, and cystine for long term regular supplementation...
A related Study:
Severe post-exercise muscle soreness may be reduced by the amino acid N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). NAC is a precursor to glutathione, the body’s primary cellular antioxidant. Scientists in Brazil studied the effect of NAC supplementation on parameters of oxidative damage and inflammatory response after high-intensity eccentric exercise (EE). Twenty-nine participants were divided randomly in three groups to take either placebo, NAC or NAC plus placebo. After taking 750 mg per day for 14 days, participants performed 3 sets at 80% of their 1-rep max until exhaustion. For the next seven days, researchers monitored muscle soreness and markers of cell damage. Only the supplemented groups maintained high levels of interleukin 10 (IL-10), an anti-inflammatory marker, on the 7th day after the workout, suggesting that treatment with NAC might prevent muscle soreness after intense exercise.
- 03-21-2012, 09:10 AM
U know... I just started taking NAC and noticed less soreness. Didn't make the connection and was thinking I need to push myself harder but now i think this may be plausible.CELTIC LABS REP
03-21-2012, 11:38 AM
I'll add additional NAC to my workout shake, let's see what additional kind of effect that will have on my muscle soreness. I'll update soon.
03-22-2012, 05:08 AM
Yesterday I've been trying to shock my body with a harder and slightly different workout... I've been having major muscle soreness with a less intense workout regularly, so it would be expected to have a even worse muscle soreness the day after this training...
But there is almost no muscle soreness. only a nice "I've been working out" feeling. I added 500mg NAC to my training drink that I consumed while training, and 500mg prior to working out. I also dosed NAC twice a day, meaning 3x a day on non training days, 4x on training days.
And I noticed another nice effect: When taking cissus in high amounts, I could virtually see the effect cissus had on water retention in my hips / belly area (by reducing cortisol, I assume)... it was like I lost a few pounds in the mirror.
Now I have about the same effect with NAC, according to the mirror. This could be explained by the cortisol response to high inflammation stress if the body does not have enough antioxidant capability which increases oxidative damage which in turn increases inflammation.
Meaning that pushing antioxidant levels high could be a very good way to not only improve anabolism, but also increase regeneration and decrease cortisol which in turn makes losing fat in stubborn areas easier (ever looked at men taking high amounts of cortison long term? they accumulate fat in the worst possible spots).
Question is, which form of antioxidants is best? Glutathione seems to be the strongest antioxidant in the human body, so any other antioxidant should be weak in comparison.
For example, vitamin c is a joke when it comes to antioxidant effects one can "feel". But it's been said that it should be supplemented with NAC in a 2-3:1 ratio (c:NAC) because both support each other and I've seen studies showing that the combination is supperior to each alone. I've heard about the wonders of astaxanthin but someone in this forum had to go as high as 2G of this stuff to feel an effect on joints. Unfortunately I have not found an comparison to glutathione, but I would assume since glutathione is the BIGGEST GUN when it comes to oxidant protection in the human body, that g is still stronger.
While one can be supplement with NAC, it seems to have potential side effects long term (see wikipedia). It is not clear how much NAC on a long term basis is OK.
So one could supplement with (l-) cysteine / cystine. It's been said that cysteine depots decrease with age and this is a major contribution to aging / aging related problems. I've come across statements from alternative medicine researchers that when there is a lot of oxidative stress and/or not enough sulfur in the diet, one should supplement with 4,5g cysteine /day in addition to the cysteine in a day's meals(stating that, now it gets interesting, only after reaching the 4,5 mark fatloss began to continue again. Question remains, if it is only the conversation to glutathione that plays a role, since cysteine is also a sulfur donor for other processes and who knows what else cysteine is good for.)... Also, NAC does not directly contribute to the sulfur cycle, while cysteine does, so long term supplementation with cysteine might have more benefits then NAC.
Also, there are quite a few amino acids that deplete sulfur levels in the body. those are tyrosine, l-dopa, 5-htp... that I know of, but there might be more.
looking at how much cysteine / cystine is in whey for example, one would have to take in about 200g protein powder a day to reach that mark. So a cysteine deficiency in the general population seems to be plausible. l-cysteine by itself seems to be quite expensive, the cheapest source I found is 54$/kg in the usa, way worse in europe...more like 65€/500g. :/
It might be possible that a combination of long term cysteine supplementation in combination with NAC before a workout could outperform ANY OTHER antioxidant there is?
So the "dream combo" of antioxidant status would be something like 4,5cysteine/day, NAC 500mg +1,5g vit c before training, ALA and ALCAR to recycle glutathione(dosages, anyone?)...? hmm. I think this would have wide consequences not only for training but for general health, since oxidation is a major damaging effect on cells, dna, etc...
03-22-2012, 05:16 AM
03-22-2012, 05:24 AM
03-22-2012, 05:38 AM
Acetylcysteine eh... the only time I've ever seen that drug is for use as an expectorant/bronchial irritant in people with cystic fibrosis and both forms of COPD. Crazy to see it used here in the way you are describing! Learn something new every day
03-22-2012, 06:04 AM
03-24-2012, 07:47 AM
I've never heard of that but its possible. I've taken alpha gpc with my alcar and sometimes I get an extra brain boost, but lately its a bit overstimulating for me and leaves me anxiousOriginally Posted by Dumpenady
03-24-2012, 10:19 AM
03-24-2012, 02:29 PM
I dunno about how useless it is. I'm a respiratory therapist and I see it used on patients all the time. The stuff smells like ass and we use it to irritate the bronchials to get the patients to cough and break up thick secretions. This is always run with albuterol because it typically causes bronchospasm. It works very well for my cystic fibrosis and copd patients in terms of creating a productive cough.Originally Posted by tnubs
03-24-2012, 02:32 PM
Its emphysema or chronic bronchitis. Not sure of your other types. Perhaps a more specific classification?Originally Posted by tnubs
03-24-2012, 07:27 PM
Sam-e works good as well. And makes my joints feel wonderful.
Athletic Xtreme Team REPhttp://www.AthleticX.net/
AXHOLE BY NATURE
04-22-2012, 07:35 PM
thats an interesting observation; a doc named donald lepore does a thorough job discussing sulfur in his book. basically, there are alot of factors that eat up our sulfur, though i cant say tyrosine at typical dosage is relevant. high amounts of vitamin c, pantothenic acid, copper, pollution, cigarette smoke, and dietary fats deplete sulfure for different reasons. additionally infections will reduce the levels. basically sulfur is involved in bile production and is needed to process fats. the tonsils are actually a sac that hold a reserve of sulfer; as levels get low the voice drops in pitch (only if you still have tonsils). people who cant get their act together in time have their tonsils ignorantly removed at the hospital. cystein is one source, so it methionine, taurine, and threonine. sulfer is a common deficiency. additionally, there is a mineral called molybdenum with noticably enables the body to get more sulfer out of the food you eat; this is relevant also because high consumption of msm, say, will deplete molydeum. i personally wouldnt have any high hopes for glutationine, though there is a form that the body can actually absorb made by liveon labs. cost you an arm and a leg for that sweet sweet lyposomal delivery. anyway, there is a test called a spectracell test done through anylabtest now dot com locations; its the most comprehensive and by far the most accurate blood test out there; it includes levels for glutationine, which might not even be low for you.
with regards to the soreness issue, there are a ton of places to look, and the soreness could be due to one or more of many reasons; i think you are smart to pay attention and make that comparison to days past, because its within grasp.
i could stammer out a few things for muscle soreness, but there will be more solutions than i can say in a reply. theres the "lactic acid is bad" school of thought, in which case any program that will raise your tissue ph (ie oxygen levels) would help (such as cal/mag, electorlytes ect). alot of nutritional substances that enhace tissue repiration decrease with age. dont waste any time with any other for of mineral besides albion; anything else will deplete other mineral levels or else itself be suppressed. theres also the "inflammation" theory which involves enzymes like wobenzyme or sorenzyme; i dont recommend that approach, though there can be benefits from following that theory toward trying things that help circulation, the idea being that broken muscle metabolties that cause inflammation will shutte out with ease having better circulation; that category would include vitamin E (400iu times 3 daily) the king of fish oil (called vectomega) which due to its abilty to burn cholesteron should only be taken at night. a product called nitrox softgel (not nitrox 2) will definately help. if youve never used a sustained release nitric oxide product, its going to impress you; takes a solid commitment of 3 tabs twice daily 30 minutes before each meal for 21 days to achieve full saturation, but by then you will be pumped and solid 24/7 for as long as you take it.
also, there is the less likely instance of infection; people who take stuff like candex, for example, report less muscle aches.
and of course, there is hormonal insufficiency; gh plummets with alot of people by age 30. i content the ones who dont lose it have ample intakes of key amino acids which light research would elaborate upon. theres always insulin and test levels too, both of which can be brought up using a targeted and thorough nutritional approach
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