Ephedrine HCI vs. Sulfate Effects

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    Ephedrine HCI vs. Sulfate Effects


    I have been experimenting lately with ephedrine products(both Primatene and Bronk-Aid). I have found that 12.5 mg (half tablet) of Bronk-Aid makes me very jittery and nervous, whereas I can take two Primatene tablets (25mg) and feel none of those side effects. Are the sulfate and HCI variations of ephedrine that different? My understanding is that they are close to being equal in terms of potency.

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    I am the exact opposite. For me, 25mg pure HCl is highly anxiogenic with a very noticeable pressor effect. Ephedrine sulfate has essentially no effect on me. Very interesting.
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    I've heard of ephedrine HCL and ephedrine sulfate. I've never heard of Ephedrine HCI though.
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    They have different BBB permeabilities though (sulfate is obviously higher), so perceived effects on the CNS may still vary.
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    I can tell you my body has always responded strangely to stimulants. For some reason, the pure synthetic versions of stimulants have always seemed to be easier to handle. I know I can take 5+mg of Yohimbine with no problems, but Yohimbe bark extract made me feel like my heart was going to explode. It was the same thing when I tried using MaHuang about ten years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxn View Post
    I can tell you my body has always responded strangely to stimulants. For some reason, the pure synthetic versions of stimulants have always seemed to be easier to handle. I know I can take 5+mg of Yohimbine with no problems, but Yohimbe bark extract made me feel like my heart was going to explode. It was the same thing when I tried using MaHuang about ten years ago.
    You may like alpha-yohimbine even more
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I am the exact opposite. For me, 25mg pure HCl is highly anxiogenic with a very noticeable pressor effect. Ephedrine sulfate has essentially no effect on me. Very interesting.
    this! i know according to data there shouldnt be a big difference but for me Primatene>bronkaid
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They have different BBB permeabilities though (sulfate is obviously higher), so perceived effects on the CNS may still vary.
    In a general sense, both compounds dissociate into their respective ions and so there is no difference in permeabilities.

    In reality, there is, because there is a pharmacokinetic difference between the two salts (beyond the scope of this conversation: the quicker you saturate the blood, the greater capacity for permeability is realized).

    Ephedrine HCl has a "common ion effect" in the gastric lumen which pushes the equilibrium towards the salt (see: LeChatelier). The end effect is a blunting of ionization, which allows greater absorption in the proximal duodenum simply due to kinetics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist View Post
    In a general sense, both compounds dissociate into their respective ions and so there is no difference in permeabilities.

    In reality, there is, because there is a pharmacokinetic difference between the two salts (beyond the scope of this conversation: the quicker you saturate the blood, the greater capacity for permeability is realized).

    Ephedrine HCl has a "common ion effect" in the gastric lumen which pushes the equilibrium towards the salt (see: LeChatelier). The end effect is a blunting of ionization, which allows greater absorption in the proximal duodenum simply due to kinetics.
    This actually makes a lot of sense from an anecdotal perspective, but would the common ion effect really be that profound from a mere 25mg Ephedrine HCl, especially if dosed on an empty stomach in which stomach HCl is at a minimum?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    would the common ion effect really be that profound from a mere 25mg Ephedrine HCl, especially if dosed on an empty stomach in which stomach HCl is at a minimum?
    There is never zero acid in the stomach, and so a common ion effect will always take place to some degree. The speed of dissociation will always favor the sulphate salt in the circumstance (a la Kohlrauschs law). I'd surmise that this would indeed have an appreciable effect, and most anecdote seems to substantiate the idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist View Post
    There is never zero acid in the stomach, and so a common ion effect will always take place to some degree. The speed of dissociation will always favor the sulphate salt in the circumstance (a la Kohlrauschs law). I'd surmise that this would indeed have an appreciable effect, and most anecdote seems to substantiate the idea.
    Indeed, my personal experiences seem to echo this phenomenon but I was curious if there was perhaps an alternative reason. Thanks for your thoughts.
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    Congratulations to Mad chemist!. You are today's nerd of the day!

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    I appreciate the resource of "nerds" as opposed to the brotelligent. It is quite refreshing. It is quite nice to learn something (again) in this community once in a while. Thanks madchemist!
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    Man, the science in this thread is making my head explode - but it's good stuff!

    For me - I prefer Ephedrine HCL and, I also use Yohimbine HCL.

    Ephedra and Yohimbe were so confusing to me because nothing was standardized. With the HCL's - I know exactly what I'm getting and I'm less likely to kill myself with these substances! LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I've heard of ephedrine HCL and ephedrine sulfate. I've never heard of Ephedrine HCI though.
    That's a lowercase L not a capital I.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    I completely agree. Even though the science is way over my head, it's good to hear from people like madchemist who have a working knowledge of how these substances actually work. I've always believed from personal experience and reading a lot of anecdotal feedback that Ephedrine obviously works, but until recently I had never even heard of different forms like HCl and sulfate.

    So far so good, though. I took 25mg twice today (with about 100mg of caffeine) and with no significant anxiety or excess stimulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I appreciate the resource of "nerds" as opposed to the brotelligent. It is quite refreshing. It is quite nice to learn something (again) in this community once in a while. Thanks madchemist!
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    man i cant wait to get back in school and get into that chemistry again
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    Ok just got some Bronkaid 25mg of sulfate though it was HCI. Is the Sulfate as good as the HCI and is 3 25mg a day right? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxn View Post
    I have been experimenting lately with ephedrine products(both Primatene and Bronk-Aid). I have found that 12.5 mg (half tablet) of Bronk-Aid makes me very jittery and nervous, whereas I can take two Primatene tablets (25mg) and feel none of those side effects. Are the sulfate and HCI variations of ephedrine that different? My understanding is that they are close to being equal in terms of potency.
    WAY opposite for me. 50mg bronkaid puts me to sleep calmly. 12.5mg of hcl has my heart pounding with tons of energy.

    Mike
    iForce Nutrition Representative
    iTrain. iCompete. iDominate…iForce!
    www.iforcenutrition.com
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