Q for mr.cooper69 on pre-workouts that he knows so well

[DCbuilder]

Last Jul/Aug you had the following rankings:

Non-stim:
1. Ultima
2. Pumpbol
3. Clout

Low-stim:

1. Vengeance
2. SAN Fierce
3. Focus XT

With regard to Vengeance, I liked that there were no nitrates in the creatine but did not like the inclusion of AA. I’ve never tried it before, but have read things regarding inflammation, and I guess I question the risk/benefit of including it in a formula.

I do want a low/mid-stim (likely caffeine/nootropics only) boost in a PWO since I workout very early in the AM and don't want 1,3 or cracked-out feeling.

I’ve used Focus XT a lot for it’s benefit for concentration while working but I would want something else as pre-workout.

Looking at pump-bol, it says in the warning it contains caffeine but I don’t see it listed anywhere on the Supplement Facts.

You wrote your initial reviews 8+ months ago.

Sitting here today, for someone who does not want 1,3, but does want some type of low/mid-stim, what do you recommend trying first:

SAN Fierce
Ultima + caffeine
Clout + caffeine
Pumpbol (does it or does it not include caffeine?)

Again, reason I didn’t list Vengeance is my concerns over the AA but those may be misplaced, I’m not sure. Since I’m older than young guys and work out for general health and some appearance, I’m not really looking to get too risky w/ the inflammation (and am less than 1 yr removed from double knee surgery and do occasionally get inflammation anyhow).

 

[D3Baseball]

I have to recommend Fierce I think it is perfect for what you're looking for. It is truly my favorite pre I've ever used; nothing improves my workouts better than Fierce.

Be on the lookout for a reforumulation in the future as well and it will become even better :dance:


Pump-Bol is stim-free. I enjoyed it and it also utilizes nitrates as a primary ingredient, like Fierce. They are different, though. I also think Pump-Bol is my favorite tasting pre I've ever used, not that that really matters, lol.


Let me know if I can help you with SAN products or anything else!

 

[DCbuilder]

Strange about pump-bol. I see no mention of it in the ingredients but the warning definitely says:
[h=3]Pump-Bol WARNING:[/h] Not intended for use by anyone under the age of 18. Do not use this product if you are pregnant, nursing or contemplating pregnancy. Do not use this product if you have any medical condition especially heart disease, thyroid disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, psychiatric condition, difficulty in urinating, prostate enlargement, or seizure disorder, if you are using a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) or any other prescription drug, or you are using an over-the-counter drug containing ingredients found in certain allergy, asthma, cough/cold and weight control products. The recommended dose of this product contains caffeine and should not be taken by individuals wishing to eliminate caffeine from their diet. Limit use of caffeine-containing foods and beverages while taking this product because too much caffeine may cause nervousness, irritability, sleeplessness, and occasionally, rapid heartbeat. Exceeding recommended serving will not improve results. Discontinue use and call a health care professional immediately if you experience rapid heartbeat, dizziness, severe headache, shortness of breath, or other similar symptoms."

Personally I hope your reformulation doesn't "crack" it up but I don't know what the masses want these days

 

[D3Baseball]

Strange about pump-bol. I see no mention of it in the ingredients but the warning definitely says:
Pump-Bol WARNING:

Not intended for use by anyone under the age of 18. Do not use this product if you are pregnant, nursing or contemplating pregnancy. Do not use this product if you have any medical condition especially heart disease, thyroid disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, psychiatric condition, difficulty in urinating, prostate enlargement, or seizure disorder, if you are using a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) or any other prescription drug, or you are using an over-the-counter drug containing ingredients found in certain allergy, asthma, cough/cold and weight control products. The recommended dose of this product contains caffeine and should not be taken by individuals wishing to eliminate caffeine from their diet. Limit use of caffeine-containing foods and beverages while taking this product because too much caffeine may cause nervousness, irritability, sleeplessness, and occasionally, rapid heartbeat. Exceeding recommended serving will not improve results. Discontinue use and call a health care professional immediately if you experience rapid heartbeat, dizziness, severe headache, shortness of breath, or other similar symptoms."

Personally I hope your reformulation doesn't "crack" it up but I don't know what the masses want these days

I just googled and found a TL rep saying that the warning was printed by mistake, it was meant to go on a different product. No caffeine.

Nothing is final in the Fierce reformulation, but I can say with relative confidence that it won't lose anything that you like.

We already have SAN Launch and Launch Full Impact 4350 for your "cracked" needs

 

[996ttelise]

I just googled and found a TL rep saying that the warning was printed by mistake, it was meant to go on a different product. No caffeine.Nothing is final in the Fierce reformulation, but I can say with relative confidence that it won't lose anything that you like.We already have SAN Launch and Launch Full Impact 4350 for your "cracked" needs

That they would mess up something simple like a label shows, at best, a lack of attention to detail. Seriously, di they have so much going on they cannot get labels with black box warnings right or just nit care throw anything on there to cover their butt.

 

[D3Baseball]

That they would mess up something simple like a label shows, at best, a lack of attention to detail. Seriously, di they have so much going on they cannot get labels with black box warnings right or just nit care throw anything on there to cover their butt.

I would normally say that, and there are lots of things to say about ThermoLife, but quality control is not something I would worry about. Isolated incident.

 

[PuZo]

Hemavol is another sold non-stim option. Add in the new Maximize Intense and it's hard to match up...

 

[vicesoldier]

Hemavol is another sold non-stim option. Add in the new Maximize Intense and it's hard to match up...

Agreed on Hemavol/Intense stim pre and Hemavol/Clout for non stim

 

[VaughnTrue]

Hemavol is another sold non-stim option. Add in the new Maximize Intense and it's hard to match up...

beat me to it.


I think Ultima is still the best "all inclusive" formula out there, however HemaVol puts it to shame in the pumps department.


Ultima-Vol stack = win

 

[DCbuilder]

I like Hemavol's profile except for the Epimedium. I've had negative reaction to it before and don't use any products which contain it.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I like Hemavol's profile except for the Epimedium. I've had negative reaction to it before and don't use any products which contain it.

what was your negative reaction with it?


Note where it is in the formula...to be honest, the epimedium content is not a huge dose, but is used to simply help facilitate a pump, not alter testosterone levels(what it is traditionally used for)

 

[DCbuilder]

I've taken 2 products which had it in there: Diesel Test Hardcore and AN's RPM. Within days of starting both, I developed a bizarre swelling rash which would mirror itself on both sides of my body. Red splotches w/ white middles. The DTH one was the absolute worst. It was accompanied by almost a swelling you'd see from a bee sting. Hands, feet, face, etc. Saw the allergist, definitely pinned it on a adverse reaction to something I was ingesting. I have not, and will not take anything w/ icariin (epimedium) again after that.

 

[VaughnTrue]

odd side effects, stinks that you get that from it.

 

[D3Baseball]

odd side effects, stinks that you get that from it.

Vaughn, I think it's time for you to put Intimidate and/or Max Intense in the sig

 

[VaughnTrue]

Vaughn, I think it's time for you to put Intimidate and/or Max Intense in the sig

old signature is old...

 

[StackedCop]

In for mr coopers response!

 

[mr.cooper69]

To clear a few things up:

-The caffeine on pump-bol is a misprint. There is no caffeine.
-The arachidonic acid in vengeance is actually a fantastic addition as long as you don't have a pre-existing inflammatory disorder. Even at a low dose, ArA is a potent vasodilator acutely, and it increases peak power output and [theoretically] hypertrophy with chronic administration via conversion to PGF2a in the myocyte. The inclusion in a preworkout is even more clever because it ensures delivery to skeletal muscle.

So my recommendation to you would still be Vengeance unless you presently have an inflammatory condition.

Now, if you do indeed have a condition, I would recommend MAN Clout at 1 scoop + 1 caffeine tab preworkout. This protocol would also necessitate supplementing beta-alanine on the side at an additional 1.6g at another time of day, and a full 3.2g of beta-alanine on off days from another source. The reason I'm leaning towards Clout is that it is one of the most complete formulas on the market. At 1 scoop, you get a full dose of creatine + orotic acid, a half-dose of BA, a full dose of NAC (for our purposes, not liver support), a full-dose of ALCAR (again, for our purposes, not longterm acetate donation), full dose of IP6, and the ever-so-valuable magnesium (which most diets are deficient in).

 

[DCbuilder]

I don't think I have a "pre-existing inflammatory disorder" - I had double knee surgery 1 year ago and have been trying to keep inflammation to a minimum. There is no inflammation at present but I don't want to induce any. Still a good candidate for Vengeance or no? Perhaps alternate between your 2 suggestions?

If I use the Clout, do you recommend bulk BA, and if so, what is the best way to take it? i.e. does it taste horrible

 

[mr.cooper69]

I don't think I have a "pre-existing inflammatory disorder" - I had double knee surgery 1 year ago and have been trying to keep inflammation to a minimum. There is no inflammation at present but I don't want to induce any. Still a good candidate for Vengeance or no? Perhaps alternate between your 2 suggestions?

If I use the Clout, do you recommend bulk BA, and if so, what is the best way to take it? i.e. does it taste horrible

I honestly think you'll be fine with Vengeance. There are safety studies on ArA using 10x the dose found in Vengeance for several months.

I recommend bulk BA with Clout. Clout tastes horrible, as far as bulk BA, I use SNS Caps so I couldn't tell ya.

 

[criticalbench]

I like Hemavol's profile except for the Epimedium. I've had negative reaction to it before and don't use any products which contain it.

I would suggest maybe buying the sample pack program at the I force website. I think you will really enjoy the formula and find the dose of epi is far to small to render a reaction.. but then again I don't no how sensitive you are.

 

[3utcher]

I would recommend MAN Clout at 1 scoop [...] and the ever-so-valuable magnesium (which most diets are deficient in).

Just notice that magnesium is clout is mostly oxide.

edit : magnesium orotate is about 7,2% magnesium, so there is 36mg of elemental magnesium coming from the orotate form. 140mg from oxide.

Clout tastes horrible

I actually enjoy the taste of clout.


Also why not taking clout everyday ?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Just notice that magnesium is clout is mostly oxide.

edit : magnesium orotate is about 7,2% magnesium, so there is 36mg of elemental magnesium coming from the orotate form. 140mg from oxide.


I actually enjoy the taste of clout.


Also why not taking clout everyday ?

Great observation on the oxide; has the formula changed recently? I don't even remember the oxide form being in the product a couple years ago.

Clout is obviously more beneficial if taken daily, but it becomes MUCH less cost effective (14 doses a week vs 4 doses when pre-training only). I'd say the highest benefit:cost ratio is by either dosing clout daily BUT at only 1 scoop a day (and supplementing the rest of the BA) or 1 scoop pre-training only. I feel that some of the ingredients in Clout (ALCAR, NAC, and Orotine in particular) are dosed perfectly fine at 1 scoop daily.

 

[th3futur3]

Little late on this BUT...yeah...you expected it...Hemavol...LOL. Have been messing with taking it in the mornings and before bed...Talk about being hard all day...

 

[DCbuilder]

I honestly think you'll be fine with Vengeance. There are safety studies on ArA using 10x the dose found in Vengeance for several months.

I recommend bulk BA with Clout. Clout tastes horrible, as far as bulk BA, I use SNS Caps so I couldn't tell ya.

Thanks. So is there a need to cycle Vengeance due to the ArA or not (since it's a smaller amount)?

I was thinking of trying both products (Vengeance and Clout) but how would you recommend incorporating them? I workout 2 days, rest 1, repeat. I'd love to find a way to use them together, either alternating days or taking clout only on rest days, something like that, as opposed to 1 month of one and 1 month of the other. Any ideas?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Thanks. So is there a need to cycle Vengeance due to the ArA or not (since it's a smaller amount)?

I was thinking of trying both products (Vengeance and Clout) but how would you recommend incorporating them? I workout 2 days, rest 1, repeat. I'd love to find a way to use them together, either alternating days or taking clout only on rest days, something like that, as opposed to 1 month of one and 1 month of the other. Any ideas?

I would feel free to use Vengeance for 2-3 tubs on end, and then cycle off just to be safe.

Due to the creatine content of Vengeance, there is overlap with Clout. With Vengeance, you want to take it continuously to reap the full benefits of ArA....likewise with Clout and Orotic Acid/ALCAR. For this reason, using one tub before switching to the next really is your best bet. You can try a scoop of each preworkout if you wish, but if you experience bloating frome excess creatine, I'd just finish 1 tub before going to the next.

 

[DCbuilder]

I would feel free to use Vengeance for 2-3 tubs on end, and then cycle off just to be safe.

Due to the creatine content of Vengeance, there is overlap with Clout. With Vengeance, you want to take it continuously to reap the full benefits of ArA....likewise with Clout and Orotic Acid/ALCAR. For this reason, using one tub before switching to the next really is your best bet. You can try a scoop of each preworkout if you wish, but if you experience bloating frome excess creatine, I'd just finish 1 tub before going to the next.

Heeding your advice but started w/ Clout since I got it in earlier. Question on it:

If taken early AM and wanting added caffeine, instead of just taking 200 mg caffeine, how about a scoop of FocusXT + clout? Looking at the ingredients I didn't see anything that stood out to me as being the same in both formulas other than the ALCAR and Vinpocetine. Can I take a scoop of each pre-workout to get some added caffeine or is there some type of bad interaction (or too much ALCAR/Vinpocetine)?

Also, any idea why the Vengeance is so hard to come by if you like it so much. It's a struggle to find anyone who has it. They're out there, but not as much. I wonder if XF stopped producing it.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Heeding your advice but started w/ Clout since I got it in earlier. Question on it:

If taken early AM and wanting added caffeine, instead of just taking 200 mg caffeine, how about a scoop of FocusXT + clout? Looking at the ingredients I didn't see anything that stood out to me as being the same in both formulas other than the ALCAR and Vinpocetine. Can I take a scoop of each pre-workout to get some added caffeine or is there some type of bad interaction (or too much ALCAR/Vinpocetine)?

Also, any idea why the Vengeance is so hard to come by if you like it so much. It's a struggle to find anyone who has it. They're out there, but not as much. I wonder if XF stopped producing it.

Nothing wrong with giving this stack a shot. There will be more than ample cholinergics, and some individuals may not respond as favorably as others with all that ALCAR and vinpocetine. The vast majority of users will be fine with this stack, so I suggest giving it a shot; I'd love to hear your thoughts.

XF hasn't stopped producing vengeance as far as I know, but they are first and foremost a protein company and manufacturing an expensive preworkout product likely isn't a top priority.